Lets Talk DBS Multipliers

Originally posted by cdtm
Equal? News to me, never thought SSJ Gotenks was quite that strong. His fight with Buu was mostly with techniques, physically he couldn't do much of anything until SSJ3.

Upon seeing/sensing Super Boo, Goku(who can very accurately sense ki) outright stated that he was stronger than himself and Vegeta, and knew they'd have NO chance against him without fusion:
https://i.imgur.com/y4irR7p.jpg
This tells us Super Boo >> SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta.

Flip side, SSJ3 Gotenks was no less than equal to Super Boo -- in fact, it's possible that Gotenks had slightly more raw power if you look at their fight in the manga. He just couldn't perma-kill Boo, is all(which required even greater levels of haxx/plot-armor than he was capable of generating.)

Originally posted by NewGuy01
^That depends if we're counting the Spirit Sword as an actual power up, or more like a Spirit Ball with positive energy haxxx.

I guess to make it simpler, where does SSJ Rage Trunks in general fall? SSJB level? I know the form didn’t have a name at the time, but it’s funny how some were still thinking it was just SSJ2, despite the blue and gold aura. Maybe it’s a less perfected SSJB, IDK.

Originally posted by cdtm
Equal? News to me, never thought SSJ Gotenks was quite that strong. His fight with Buu was mostly with techniques, physically he couldn't do much of anything until SSJ3.

Kaioken is x 10.

SSG is ?x SSJ3. (Tough on to gauge)
SSB is ≈10x SSG. (Based off SSG being less than 10% comment in 6 vs 7 tournament)
MSSB is 50x SSG. (Based off Kefla fight)
Beerus is 100x MSSB. (Based on extremely suppressed Jiren vs SSBKKx20 plus spirit bomb. Hard to really tell though)
Whis is 100x Beerus. (No real way to tell)
Daishinkan is 100x Whis. (No real way to tell)
Zen-Oh is ∞x Daishinkan. (No real way to tell)

SSG Goku was introduced as being out of even Super Vegetto's league, so it would have to be at least tens of times stronger than SSJ3.

Based Whis's dialogue during the U6 tournament, the highball estimate for SSB would be that it's 10x stronger than SSG. A reasonable lowball would be 3x.

MSSB has exactly the same power output as SSB. The difference is that all of the power is being utilized (whereas normally there was leakage), and that power drains much slower.

Assuming that the Beerus ~ SSB Vegetto is accurate, and that the multiplier for Vegetto from the Buu saga is unchanged, then Beerus should still be several dozen times stronger than MSSB, as ridiculous as that sounds.

From there, if Toriyama's 6-10-15 scale is still considered accurate, Whis would have to be hundreds of times stronger than Beerus for the gap between them to be larger than the gap between Beerus and BoG Goku.

Daishinkan and Zeno are relatively unknown, so I'm not even going to try to guess where they stand.

The Kefla vs Goku fight shows the most accurate multiplier from SSG to SSB imo.

Base Kefla > Weakened SSG Goku
SSJ Kefla ≈ Weakened SSB Goku

With this we can now safely say that SSB would be about the same increase as the normal SSJ increase.

Max Kefla > UI Goku.

Based on the fact UI Goku's best Kamehameha only knocked Kefla out of the ring, while a stray ki strand would have sliced UI Goku in two.

Goku won on skill, not raw power.

UI's strength being about skill is proven beyond doubt when UI Goku could not harm Kefla much with melee. This implies a fully master UI targets weak points/pressure points, for max damage.

Im not talking about max Kefla or UI Goku...

You have to remember that Kefla is a Legendary Super Saiyan too. So her power keeps on growing. She also went SSJ2 against UI Goku.
Goku also never maxed out his power against her. He just stops and says "that is enough for me."
He also only has the defensive side of UI so there is that too. Even still he was strong enough to defuse Kefla with his power.

Back to what I was saying. My estimate above is in the range of what the multiplier would be from SSG to SSB.

Goku was also ridiculously weakened against Kefla, so I'm not sure why we'd use that as a gauge anyway... UI or not.

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku was also ridiculously weakened against Kefla, so I'm not sure why we'd use that as a gauge anyway... UI or not.

No more or less weakened then every other powerup. Goku against Freeza, Gohan vs Cell, all had them beaten down and weak before the SSJ.

I think it's telling that, weakened or not, it was implied a fully mastered UI could have taken out Kefla in one attack.. It's like Kenshiro's Hokuto Shinken, where the skill itself steamrolls anybody against it, as long as the user masters the form. No matter how strong they are.

That's how I see it, anyways. I'm not quite convinced strength doesn't matter, but it seems heavily implied that STRENGTH DOES NOT MATTER. It's all 100% skill, and anyone who masters it essentially removes themselves from the scale and sits someplace far above it.

Physical capability absolutely matters where UI is concerned. Give Dr. Brief complete mastery of UI, and he certainly isn't just going to waltz up and stomp Jiren, for example -- you still have to be powerful enough for your blows to matter.

And again, it was reiterated time and time again that Goku is all but burned out since fighting Jiren... Which makes his stompage of Kefla much more impressive, mind you, but still not an accurate gauge for what a *peak* UI Goku is capable of. Imo.

Taken to an extreme, this is true.

Sticking to the Hokuto Shinken parallel, once Kenshiro masters his art, he effectively becomes invincible against all except other Muso Tensei users.

The reason Mr. Satan wouldn't become invincible with UI, is because he simply wouldn't be able to achive the form. I'll grant a certain level of training and proficiancy is required, at an unknown level.

But as for raw power.. It's entirely possible a being as weak as Saiyan/Namek saga power levels could get you across that line. We really don't know, but we DO know Jiren isn't a Saiyan, and we also know Goku's SSJ Blue and UI "strength levels" seem pretty unrelated (Goku was stomped while Blue, yet he also launched Jiren across the battlefield.. Technically, UI may be weaker then blue in terms of raw power, but make up the difference in skillful striking at weak points, balance manipulation, and other tricks.)

Of course, this is all speculation..but hardly without precedent, as the physically weak martial.arts master who stomps the much stronger youth on skill alone is a common trope.

You're making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be, imo... It's this simple: UI or not, a full power Goku >>> a weakened Goku.

The only reason for his depleted stamina to be continuously referenced ad nauseam is so we, the viewers, are aware that everything he's done post-Jiren, was done in a significantly weakened state.

I'm not only talking about his fight with Kefla, though. His fight with Jiren had Blue punch's have a much greater effect then UI. The one's Jiren allowed to connect, at any rate.