Mass Shootings in America Thread

Originally posted by dadudemon

If you were correct about focus and priorities then why are we talking about policies less than 1% of the gun homicides and, instead, why aren't we focusing quite heavily on black homicides?

The 1% argument is bullcrap. Mass shootings are supposed to happen rarely, you don't get a Las Vegas or Orlando Night Club shooting everyday.

As far as homicides go, 9/11 was a rare event that accounted for less deaths than the gross total of other forms of homicide right? But we still spent millions of regulations and security so that 9/11 wouldn't happen again.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The fact that any time at all is wasted on "Assault Weapons" tells me that almost no one is an honest actor in this conversation.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Where are the news headlines about the 6-10 killed last week in Chicago? Hmmm?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh, it's just black people killing each other. Who cares about them, right? They only comprise about 50% of all the murdered people in the US, each year.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Removing gun rights doesn't solve either. As I've said, it's a red herring. And it's stupid.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No I sure as hell didn't. haermm

Well...they actually implemented those strict laws in 1993 because of exactly the opposite reason. But I will not condescend to you as it is unnecessary to keep the conversation moving. Uhhh...take a look at the history around their gun laws. I don't know what else to tell you...but it was moral outrage and backlash against some very crappy violent events.

You didn't understand the point, at all, and came up to the opposite conclusion.

1990 homicides < 2014 homicides

Gun laws that you posted about: 1993.

Homicides in Japan for many years prior have been about the same.

Conclusion: the strict gun laws had no effect on homicide rates and if we are being fair, there is a statistically significant negative effect on homicide rates since 1993 which could lend itself (if we are to be idiots about it) to the notion that the strict gun laws need to be repealed to get back to the 1990 figures.

The strict gun laws did [b]NOT lower the homicide rate in Japan. [/B]

Originally posted by dadudemon
No I sure as hell didn't. haermm

Well...they actually implemented those strict laws in 1993 because of exactly the opposite reason. But I will not condescend to you as it is unnecessary to keep the conversation moving. Uhhh...take a look at the history around their gun laws. I don't know what else to tell you...but it was moral outrage and backlash against some very crappy violent events.

You didn't understand the point, at all, and came up to the opposite conclusion.

1990 homicides < 2014 homicides

Gun laws that you posted about: 1993.

Homicides in Japan for many years prior have been about the same.

Conclusion: the strict gun laws had no effect on homicide rates and if we are being fair, there is a statistically significant negative effect on homicide rates since 1993 which could lend itself (if we are to be idiots about it) to the notion that the strict gun laws need to be repealed to get back to the 1990 figures.

The strict gun laws did [b]NOT lower the homicide rate in Japan. [/B]

Here's some other examples

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/gun-deaths-eliminated-america-learn-japan-australia-uk-norway-florida-shooting-latest-news-a8216301.html

This shit works for them but not us?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Doesn't Japan also have one of if not THE highest suicide rates in the world? Seems like large numbers of mentally unstable people offing themselves every single year might factor quite a bit into the lower murder rate...

Originally posted by Firefly218
What? Suicide rates in Japan have nothing to do with mental stability, it is entirely cultural. The Japanese overwork themselves to the point of death sometimes. Suicide is a big problem in Indian colleges too because culturally the kids are expected to be perfect students and any slight failure could result in their social and economic ruin.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It can be argued that anyone willing to commit suicide has at least some level of mental instability going on. That's not to say that it's always a genetic instability, but rather one born out of desperation due to the pressures they face every day. Our culture doesn't encourage that particular out which means that we have an ever increasing number of desperate people walking around every year. Desperation leads to crime, crime leads to murder.

Originally posted by Firefly218
Ok I got you, I thought you were referring to mental illness

But yeah, I was mostly speaking in a broad sense rather than focusing purely on genetic predisposition.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Black people only matter in US Politics when it is time to deflect from the issue of mass shootings, and encourage do nothingness.

Karoshi is a social construct which in turn leads to mental illness/suicide.

So, no valid arguments for banning semi-auto rifles?

Originally posted by dadudemon
What were gun deaths, per capita, before their strict gun laws were put in place?

Let's frame Japan's homicide rate over time:

In 1960:
2.81
http://www.nationmaster.com/country.../All-stats#1960

1970:
1.9
http://www.nationmaster.com/country.../All-stats#1970

1980:
1.44
http://www.nationmaster.com/country.../All-stats#1980

1990:
0.98
http://www.nationmaster.com/country.../All-stats#1990

In 2014 (the latest I could find from this site):
1.02
http://www.nationmaster.com/country.../All-stats#2014

Looks like it was 1993 that the ultra strict gun control laws went into place (and amended in 1995):

https://digital.law.washington.edu/dspace-law/bitstream/handle/1773.1/806/9PacRimLPolyJ165.pdf?sequence=1

So the next time someone brings up Japan for how righteous and amazing they are for their extremely strict gun control laws, remind them that:
1. Homicides were already absurdly low BEFORE those strict laws were put into place.
2. Homicides have actually increased since their extremely strict enforcement of gun laws went into place. [/B]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_and_Sword_Possession_Control_Law

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/japan.php#Law

The 1950 Order was replaced by the Law Controlling the Possession of Firearms and Swords in 1958.[18] There were some changes made to the regulations in the 1950 Order, but the general prohibition of possession of guns by civilians was not changed. One of the changes implemented in the 1958 Law was the prohibition in principle of carrying guns and swords, regardless of whether the carrier was licensed to own the gun or sword.

There were also a few notable additions to the 1958 law during the 60s, notably making the unauthorized import of guns illegal and raising the age for owning a hunting rifle from 18 to 21. And between 1960 and 1990, as your statistics show, the homicide rate fell by a significant amount (~66% decrease).

The 1958 Law has frequently been amended following a public outcry after crimes or incidents involving guns, each amendment making the restrictions tighter. For example, when the police determined that most illegal guns were imported from abroad, a provision making the unauthorized importing of guns a crime was added to the law in 1965.[21] After an eighteen-year-old licensed to own two hunting rifles killed a police officer and went on a shooting spree against police officers in 1965, the age for owning a hunting rifle was raised from eighteen to twenty years old.[22]

So as you can see, the strict gun laws in Japan were codified and enforced decades before the 90s legislation. And I would point out that the study you linked did attribute Japan's low crime rate, in part, to its strict gun controls in its conclusion, naming the Firearm and Sword Possession Control Law first enshrined in 1958 in its conclusion.

The Firearm and Sword Possession Control Law has successfully regulated a broad range of firearms and is one reason for the low crime rate in Japan.

What's more, although the slight increase in homicides since the 90s is worrying, there are positive signs regarding the gun control legislation introduced in the 90s. The total number of criminal cases involving guns has fallen from 200 in 2001 to 50 in 2011. The number of people being shot to death has also fallen from around 30 in 1993 to 8 in 2010. Presumably, these statistics would also suggest that the increase in homicides is down to other factors, because the number of people being shot dead has actually decreased dramatically.

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/japan.php#Law

The total number of criminal cases involving the shooting of guns has declined over the last ten years. In 2001, the number was more than two hundred, but in 2010 the number was less than fifty.[104]

The number of criminal cases involving handguns has also declined over the last ten years. In 2001, the number was eighty, but by 2010 the number was down to twenty. The number of criminal cases involving guns other than handguns has not changed. In 2010, the number was twenty-six.[105]

The following table shows the number of victims who were shot to death in recent years:[106]

See table in link

Originally posted by jaden101
What's the solution then, champ.

Business as usual?

Cyclical arguments?

I've named them several times even just this year

Originally posted by dadudemon
I've named them several times even just this year

Go on. Do it again. Everyone else does cos nobody pays attention to what anyone else's opinions are on here. &#128514;

lazybones for the win

Originally posted by Firefly218
Why do you feel the need to play up a different tragedy to undermine this one and why must it be one or the other?

Why do you feel the need to capitalize on tragediges with solutions that do not work and then ignore 99+% of the actual problem?

Originally posted by Firefly218
The 1% argument is bullcrap. Mass shootings are supposed to happen rarely, you don't get a Las Vegas or Orlando Night Club shooting everyday.

And we don't. And they still make up less than 1% of our homicides. You may not like it but those are the facts.

Originally posted by Firefly218
As far as homicides go, 9/11 was a rare event that accounted for less deaths than the gross total of other forms of homicide right? But we still spent millions of regulations and security so that 9/11 wouldn't happen again.

And does the FBI classify that as homcide under their crime stats?

Red herring much?

Originally posted by Firefly218
There's literally no financial motive for people like me who are against assault weapons like the AR-15, whereas there IS a financial motive for the people who defend the assault weapons. Even the victims of these tragedies are begging for government action on assault weapons, are they dishonest? Tell me who's honest in the scenario.

So you're new soapbox is "financial incentive"? So those millions of rednecks bitching on social media are gun lobbyist fatcats lining their pockets with Federal Budget Earmarks and tax breaks?

Originally posted by Firefly218
Are you more concerned about the news media coverage of tragedies or the actual tragedy itself? This isn't a competition.

You missed the point entirely, on purpose, to detract from the larger gun-death problem because it makes you uncomfortable to think that the narrative you have been spoonfed for years by American liberals is bullshit. And that bullshit? That "moar gun controls stop deaths! Ban all assault rifles! Restrict this! Restrict that!"

Originally posted by Firefly218
Strawman

Sorry, no, you cannot summarily dismiss my entire point and pretend it is a strawman. It is my entire point. You don't like it, fine, ignore me. But don't pretend it is a logical fallacy.

Originally posted by lazybones
Correction: It was 1958 when the current era of strict gun laws in Japan began with the Firearm and Sword Possession Control Law (which itself was actually an overhaul of earlier strict laws established in 1950). The laws in 1993 and 1995 amended these laws further, but were ultimately based on the same set of principles (general prohibition of guns for civilians, regardless of license).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_and_Sword_Possession_Control_Law

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/japan.php#Law

There were also a few notable additions to the 1958 law during the 60s, notably making the unauthorized import of guns illegal and raising the age for owning a hunting rifle from 18 to 21. And between 1960 and 1990, as your statistics show, the homicide rate fell by a significant amount (~66% decrease).

So as you can see, the strict gun laws in Japan were codified and enforced decades before the 90s legislation. And I would point out that the study you linked did attribute Japan's low crime rate, in part, to its strict gun controls in its conclusion, naming the Firearm and Sword Possession Control Law first enshrined in 1958 in its conclusion.

What's more, although the slight increase in homicides since the 90s is worrying, there are positive signs regarding the gun control legislation introduced in the 90s. The total number of criminal cases involving guns has fallen from 200 in 2001 to 50 in 2011. The number of people being shot to death has also fallen from around 30 in 1993 to 8 in 2010. Presumably, these statistics would also suggest that the increase in homicides is down to other factors, because the number of people being shot dead has actually decreased dramatically.

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/japan.php#Law

Like D said, Blacks only matters to the elite and powerful when there’s elections to be won. Till then, who gives a shit if they kill each other right!&#128077;

Originally posted by lazybones
Correction: It was 1958 when the current era of strict gun laws in Japan began with the Firearm and Sword Possession Control Law (which itself was actually an overhaul of earlier strict laws established in 1950). The laws in 1993 and 1995 amended these laws further, but were ultimately based on the same set of principles (general prohibition of guns for civilians, regardless of license).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_and_Sword_Possession_Control_Law

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/japan.php#Law

Dude...you literally just cited the same thing I did. 😬

Don't quote my post, pretend to contradict it with a citation, and then literally use the same exact citation I did to support your shitty position.

Here is why your position is shitty and very stupid:

Massive changes occurred in the 1993 and 1995 legislation which is where a significant portion of those "strict regulations and enforcement" come from in Japan. Citing the 1958 version demonstrate a clear lack of understanding of the law and time frame. Specifically, shifting to the individual as opposed to organizations (random home inspections, for example).

Homicides in 1957:
2.78

Homicides in 1958:
2.92

Homicides in 1959:
2.9

If you had a point, you didn't make it. You could have saved yourself this massive waste of time and just looked up the data, the actual regulations, instead of wasting our time with your dishonest debate tactics disguised as being credible.

Originally posted by Firefly218
lazybones for the win

Not even close. He used my own citation, demonstrated he didn't know what was introduced in 1993, and made the opposite point he intended to make: 1958 and 1959 have homicide rates greater than 1957 despite his point about the "gun control laws."

Before you cheer lead someone, verify that their point is accurate, honest, and actually does something in the discussion (I am not mocking you: cheer lead points you like and to hell with people who say not to cheer lead but verify that people are being honest in discussions before you endorse them).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fascinating, it's almost as if gun regulation is independent of homicide rates.

Fixed that for you.

Originally posted by SquallX
Like D said, Blacks only matters to the elite and powerful when there’s elections to be won. Till then, who gives a shit if they kill each other right!&#128077;

Look no further than the "black candidate", Hillary Clinton, who is not showing up in black communities to champion their causes anymore. Election cycle is over! Who cares about black people, now!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Fixed that for you.