Cell age Gohan v.s. Buu age Gohan
SSJ1 Gohan from the Cell Games-
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_small/8/80111/3365630-gohan21.jpg
v.s.
SSJ2 Gohan from the start of the Buu series-
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111215084/4443125-ssj2_gohan_world_tournament.jpg
This has come up before, but Gohan literally MUST have been SSJ2 against Dabra.
After all, we know for a fact that at the time Gohan fought Dabra, he was a LOT weaker than he was during the Cell Games. This is important because during the Cell Games, even FPSSJ Gohan was still below a suppressed Cell... So for a much weaker version of Gohan to stalemate a Cell-level being, means he literally HAD to have been SSJ2 -- anything less would have been stomped with utter ease.
ie. SSJ2 Gohan(Boo-era) ~ Dabra ~ Perfect Cell > FPSSJ Gohan(Cell-era) > FPSSJ Gohan(Boo-era).
So yeah, SSJ2 Gohan should still take this without much issue(pathetic as he was.)
Originally posted by Galan007The thing is, FPSSJ Gohan was about equal to FPSSJ Cell. And also Dabura wasn't trying to kill Gohan during their fight and had the upper hand for the most part.
This has come up before, but Gohan literally MUST have been SSJ2 against Dabra.After all, we know for a fact that at the time Gohan fought Dabra, he was a LOT weaker than he was during the Cell Games. This is important because during the Cell Games, even FPSSJ Gohan was still below a suppressed Cell... So for a much weaker version of Gohan to stalemate a Cell-level being, means he literally HAD to have been SSJ2 -- anything less would have been stomped with utter ease.
ie. SSJ2 Gohan(Boo-era) ~ Dabra ~ Perfect Cell > FPSSJ Gohan(Cell-era) > FPSSJ Gohan(Boo-era).
So yeah, SSJ2 Gohan should still take this without much issue(pathetic as he was.)
There is no "FPSSJ" Cell. Not canonically, anyway.
And no, it was quite clear that FPSSJ Gohan was markedly below Cell during their fight(this holds true in both the anime AND manga.) Cell was toying with Gohan the entire time -- goading him into unleashing his true power/SSJ2.
...And we later learned that Cell had been holding back his *full* power up until the time Gohan unlocked SSJ2:
https://i.imgur.com/F8KqkA5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qSrUHb3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JAAgfUA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9qhfepN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CuStGiB.jpg
IOW, even a suppressed Cell was > FPSSJ Gohan... That said, Boo-era FPSSJ Gohan would've been hysterically inferior to Cell, and posed absolutely NO challenge whatsoever. That's why he MUST have been SSJ2 against Dabra -- it's literally the ONLY way he would have stood a chance against him.
I don't know what I put FPSSJ Celll.. I meant Perfect Cell. And we know that he wasn't holding that much back.. ssj2 isn't that big a power boost. It's only 2x the power and Gohan beat him like he was nothing.
Also, Buu era Gohan didn't beat Dabura. Gohan was survivng against him, but Dabura was clearly winning
Originally posted by KentoCell was holding back enough that when he fully powered up, the other Z Fighters were shocked by his power. Exactly how much Cell was holding back is irrelevant, however, as FPSSJ Gohan was still markedly below his suppressed state.
I don't know what I put FPSSJ Celll.. I meant Perfect Cell. And we know that he wasn't holding that much back.. ssj2 isn't that big a power boost. It's only 2x the power and Gohan beat him like he was nothing.
Originally posted by KentoIn the manga they come off as near-equals. IF Dabra had the advantage, it was very slight.
Also, Buu era Gohan didn't beat Dabura. Gohan was survivng against him, but Dabura was clearly winning
Originally posted by KentoThere is absolutely NO evidence suggesting that Vegeta was unable to go SSJ2 on his own... Especially when he actually went SSJ2 against Pure Boo:
Vegeta couldn't go ssj2
Originally posted by Galan007Except he was clearly upset that Goku was able to achieve ssj2 against Yakon. As he was the only one to notice that Goku went ssj2. It was when he realized he was so much weaker than Goku also. So him having ssj2 before that doesn't make much sense. If he was able to achieve ssj2, while not training as much, and having a family why would he not think that Goku would be able to achieve the same form?
There is absolutely NO evidence suggesting that Vegeta was unable to go SSJ2 on his own... Especially when he actually went SSJ2 against Pure Boo:
https://i.imgur.com/ttciXHo.jpg
Originally posted by KentoNah, I wuldn't say he was upset.
Except he was clearly upset that Goku was able to achieve ssj2 against Yakon. As he was the only one to notice that Goku went ssj2. It was when he realized he was so much weaker than Goku also. So him having ssj2 before that doesn't make much sense. If he was able to achieve ssj2, while not training as much, and having a family why would he not think that Goku would be able to achieve the same form?
In the fight with Yakon, Vegeta simply recognized that Goku had ALSO ascended beyond SSJ1 in the time since the Cell saga:
https://i.imgur.com/AuoljGH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EyrYVOn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UU2q1Uh.jpg
Vegeta: "I see... So Kakarot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall, TOO."
"TOO" tells us that Vegeta was ALSO capable of reaching SSJ2, since we know...for a fact...that he was comparing Goku's power to his OWN there.
That instance simply made Vegeta realize that Goku's SSJ2 was still more powerful than his own SSJ2(which is why he required the Majin-amp to put him on Goku's level.) Absolutely NO reason to believe Vegeta was incapable of reaching SSJ2 all together, though... Especially when he later went SSJ2 on his own against Pure Boo.
Saying that Goku can go ssj too doesn't imply that Vegeta can. Vegeta firmly believed that he and Goku were equal up until he seen Goku able to go ssj2, and then he wanted the majin power up. It wasn't until then that he realized the gap in their power. If he had ssj2, then he wouldn't have needed to see Goku go ssj2 to realize there was a gap in power.
And Vegeta unlocked the ssj2 power up, there is no reason to think he's lose it. Gohan gets weaker and can still use ssj2..
You're acting like all SSJ2's are created equal... That is most certainly NOT the case(look at the SSJ2 Gohan in this thread, for crying out loud -- he was weaker than Goku AND Vegeta.)
As mentioned: Vegeta was clearly capable of going SSJ2 before the Majin-amp, or else he wouldn't have still been capable of doing so AFTER the Majin-amp was gone. That's why he said: "Kakarot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall, TOO"... He also made NO mention of the Majin-amp being responsible for him unlocking SSJ2.
The answer is simple: Vegeta knew Goku's SSJ2 was still more powerful than his own SSJ2 after he sensed his power against Yakon. But again: this does not mean Vegeta himself was incapable of transforming into a SSJ2... Especially when NO evidence alludes to such.
Kento is acting stupid here, and he's arguing like a noob.
Galan is right. Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, which is what embarrassed Vegeta and Goku. Either of them probably could've handled Dabura in SSJ1. Galan has already argued this to the point where it's like beating a dead horse. Vegeta though to himself, "Kakarot has ascended past SSJ too", which means that he was referring to himself having ascended past SSJ in the first place. He wasn't referring to Gohan, because they already all knew that he had SSJ2, this was old news.
Also, Majin Vegeta had lightning. Dabura didn't have lightning, so the lightning was caused by Vegeta being SSJ2. IIRC, Majin wasn't even a buff, it just made him heartless and made it easier for him to fight Goku with the intent to kill.
