The first Super Saiyan [God] revealed by Toriyama...

Originally posted by cdtm
Lets be honest, a change of hair and eye color isn't even really a "transformation". It's a cosmetic style.

But yeah, where Saiyans are concerned the only full-on physical "transformations" I can think of(regardless of canonicity) are:

-Oozaru: it's a giant monkey, ffs.
-Broly's LSSJ: it literally bursts out from underneath his base form.
-SSJ4: it's look is akin to a base Saiyan/Oozaru hybrid... With pink fur.

*USSJ and SSJ3 are pretty extreme physical changes as well, but definitely not in the same vein as the above. Imo.

I guess the reason only Broly become LSSJ is cause he has the most LS cells....haermm

Originally posted by Estacado
I guess the reason only Broly become LSSJ is cause he has the most LS cells....haermm

I am waiting for freeza to tell Goku that he is his father.

I *do* wonder if an overabundance of S Cells(fused with divine ki, perhaps..?) is why Black's ki progressively increased in battle, with seemingly no limit..?

Originally posted by carver9
Right on point.

*Woosh*

Aura: "You guys chose to eat this manure, I don't want to hear you complain about it."

Carv: *Mouthful of manure*. Right on point.

Originally posted by Galan007
I *do* wonder if an overabundance of S Cells(fused with divine ki, perhaps..?) is why Black's ki progressively increased in battle, with seemingly no limit..?

Well producer of DBS in interview said Black was the strongest outside of Beerus... he flat out states that Black went on to have his own unique evolution/power-up thanks to Zamasus natural god ki in saiyan body and that's why he became the strongest "mortal" and so effective.

Makes sense. I mean, Goku and Vegeta really had no answer for Black's infinite ki, or future Zamasu's immortality... They came the closest to absolute victory that anyone has in the franchise, imo(especially after merging with the universe) -- the Z Fighters had absolutely NO way to win on their own.

It literally required THE most powerful being in the multiverse to directly intervene and expunge that entire universe/timeline from existence, in order to prevail.

Originally posted by Galan007
Makes sense. I mean, Goku and Vegeta really had no answer for Black's infinite ki, or future Zamasu's immortality... They came the closest to absolute victory that anyone has in the franchise, imo(especially after merging with the universe) -- the Z Fighters had absolutely NO way to win on their own.

It literally required THE most powerful being in the multiverse to directly intervene and expunge that entire universe/timeline from existence, in order to prevail.

Exactly.

Well, that brings up another question; what exactly is "ki"? I've heard it argued for that it's simply physical energy, but if that were the case, Goku and Goku Black would have identical ki, because their bodies are identical.

What role does the spirit play in ki? Is it like Naruto, where the power source is the result of fusing mental and physical energy?

Black was an anomaly. Even though Zamasu had the Super Dragon replace his body with Goku's, his own divine ki was somehow merged with the physical traits of Goku -- IOW, Black was basically Zamasu with a Goku wrapper... And somehow this merger of Saiyan and divine power created a vessel(ie. Black) whose ki could perpetually increase during battle, with [seemingly] no limit.

While Goku's powers work in a similar way(ie. he gets stronger in the heat of battle and receives zenkais to an extent), his body/power is still typically portrayed with a distinct limit. Black's wasn't... And it seems like the divine ki he was infused with is the reason why. /shrug

Anybody else want the saiyan tail to makea come back? It was iconic for them to have it. It was also considered their "true power".

Probably the one thing I enjoyed with GT.

If only Vegeta wasn't stuck with the 80's plastic suit color scheme.

Unlike Goku, for some reason Vegeta lost his tail when he reverted from SSJ4.

So with how easily Kale and Caulifa picked up the super saiyan transformation, can we assume they have even more s-cells then Trunks and goten?

With how quick Caulifla and Cabba attained SSJ2, the U6 saiyans might have more S-cells, but Trunks and Goten attained regular SSJ just as absurdly, so who knows.

Originally posted by Galan007
Makes sense. I mean, Goku and Vegeta really had no answer for Black's infinite ki, or future Zamasu's immortality... They came the closest to absolute victory that anyone has in the franchise, imo(especially after merging with the universe) -- the Z Fighters had absolutely NO way to win on their own.

It literally required THE most powerful being in the multiverse to directly intervene and expunge that entire universe/timeline from existence, in order to prevail.

True.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
With how quick Caulifla and Cabba attained SSJ2, the U6 saiyans might have more S-cells, but Trunks and Goten attained regular SSJ just as absurdly, so who knows.

It's probably because the saiyans of U6 live more leisurely lives.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
So with how easily Kale and Caulifa picked up the super saiyan transformation, can we assume they have even more s-cells then Trunks and goten?

Caulifla, for example, was able to reach SSJ after a few seconds of focusing, just because Cabba told her it felt like a 'tingly feeling' in her back, lol(she then ascended to SSJ2 in much the same manner)... She was also ridiculously powerful for a n00b SSJ/SSJ2. And Kale's LSSJ transformation came almost as easily to her as well -- she just had to have an emotional catalyst along with the 'tingly feeling' the first few times she transformed.

Flip side, the boys were much younger when they went SSJ, and were also ridiculously powerful all things considered. Difference is: Goten and Trunks each reached SSJ naturally -- they didn't have any formal training from the adult Saiyans to teach them how to reach SSJ easier(at least Kale/Caulifa had that, minimal at is was.) /shrug

So if S-Cells = SSJ *potential*, it's damn hard to figure out who the better prodigies are between the boys and the girls. However, if S-Cells = SSJ *power*, then the girls are far superior.

*A few more tidbits from Akira Toriyama's interview in the January 2018 issue of Saikyo Jump...

Can anyone become a Super Saiyan if they train?

AT: It's not like anyone can become a Super Saiyan through training and anger. In order to become a Super Saiyan, one's body must contain something called "S-Cells." Once these S-Cells reach a certain amount, a trigger such as anger will explosively increase the S-Cells and cause a change in the body; that's Super Saiyan. Most Saiyans have some S-Cells, although not a great quantity. The reason why Goku and Vegeta's children can become Super Saiyan relatively easily is probably because to a certain extent they inherited a lot of S-Cells, and also because Earth's environment is gentler and easier to live in than Planet Vegeta.

And how does one increase S-Cells to become Super Saiyan?

AT: Having a gentle spirit is the best way to greatly increase one's S-Cells, but most Saiyans have trouble with this, which I think is why no Super Saiyans appeared for such a long time that they became the stuff of legend. However, one can't reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary. Looked at in this light, it's easy to see why becoming a Super Saiyan came easy for Goku.

[Goten picture] "He was able to easily become Super Saiyan thanks to inheriting lots of S-Cells!"

[Goku picture] "A gentle heart + high battle power resulted in Super Saiyan!!"

Was the "legendary Super Saiyan" Freeza feared the Super Saiyan God that appeared in Battle of Gods?

AT: In a certain sense, they are the same person. That is to say, very long ago, before Planet Vegeta was the Saiyans' planet, there was a man named Yamoshi who had a righteous heart despite being a Saiyan. He and his five comrades started a rebellion, but he was cornered by combatants and became a Super Saiyan for the first time, though his transformation and fearsome fighting style shocked the other Saiyans. Outnumbered, Yamoshi eventually wore himself out and was defeated, but this was only the beginning of his legend. Afterwards, Yamoshi's spirit wandered in continuous search of six righteous-hearted Saiyans, seeking a new savior: Super Saiyan God.

[Tori-bot] "And that's why there's that ceremony to become Super Saiyan God."

And why did Beerus search for Super Saiyan God?

AT: Beerus probably picked up on information about Yamoshi's spirit in his prophetic dream. The fact that this is recorded in the Namekian book of legends is likewise because the Namekian elder who wrote it sympathized with Yamoshi's spirit.

So a Saiyan's S-Cell count can be increased by any/all of the following:
1.) Being raised in a calm/hospitable environment.
2.) Having a gentle heart.
3.) Having a high battle power.

IOW, if the current Saiyans stay pure hearted and continue training, they can perpetually boost their S-Cell count, which will increase their overall SSJ potential by proxy(ie. they essentially do not have a limit/cap to their powers.)

Interesting... mmm

...

This retcon gets more and more bizarre.

They will be pure s-cells soon lol