Originally posted by Darth ThorRacism to answer racism is perpetuating the problem not solving it. If we continue to focus on the color of someone's skin then tribalism or racism will still exist. It's pretty simple in the end but then again you don't ever see the obvious i.e. Snoke is more powerful than Vader, Palpatine(yes I threw in a Star Wars reference because I told you I wouldn't let this go).
Except that ignores the specific prejudice towards minorities.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Racism to answer racism is perpetuating the problem not solving it. If we continue to focus on the color of someone's skin then tribalism or racism will still exist.
Bingo. People need to realize that fighting an injustice by simply shifting the injustice to another group is never going to fix anything.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
So:“And I never said I oppose black people things, I said I oppose violent/murderous people who are criminals. And most of the time, the violent and criminals are black”
Isn’t racist?
Explain.
6% of the population here commit over 50% of the murders.
Is that fact racist? Or is your point that it's not about the fact, but it is the manner in which the person phrased what they said? Since I don't think a fact can be racist.
Otherwise if that is racist no matter how you phrase it...the media declaring things like "white men commit a majority of mass shootings" would also be racist.
Originally posted by Surtur
6% of the population here commit over 50% of the murders.Is that fact racist? Or is your point that it's not about the fact, but it is the manner in which the person phrased what they said? Since I don't think a fact can be racist.
Otherwise if that is racist no matter how you phrase it...the media declaring things like "white men commit a majority of mass shootings" would also be racist.
1) I am a big propponent of personal responsibility. Yes, the stats point to blacks being disproportionately violent and criminal. Fact is, that is true. But once these facts becomes a justification to percieve (insert race) a certain way, or be assigned blame over something it is prejudice against a race. It is racist.
2) I ageee, it is racist. You’re white. Doesn’t that feel racist to you?
Edit. You see, my point is why even have the conversation of skin color at all? When a tragedy happens (drive by or school shooting or a terrorist bomb explodes) the guilt lies in the shooter/bomber, not his race, while there might be underlying social issues that increases the likelyhood of such individuals to act thusly (poverty, lack of education, mental illness) then it these issues that should be addressed directly. “Race” is a smokescreen.
Originally posted by Surtur
6% of the population here commit over 50% of the murders.Is that fact racist? Or is your point that it's not about the fact, but it is the manner in which the person phrased what they said? Since I don't think a fact can be racist.
Otherwise if that is racist no matter how you phrase it...the media declaring things like "white men commit a majority of mass shootings" would also be racist.
Right, this indicates we do have an issue. And it needs to be addressed. If you compare "apples to apples" with the Latino community, they are poorer, less educated, but still commit far fewer murders both absolutely and proportionally.
Why?
That is something we need to solve and talk about. This is not purely an SES issue.
As Firefly218 pointed out, some of this may be rooted (no pun intended) in the fact that African Americans have lived her for centuries and under oppression whereas Lations are mostly new immigrants in the lsat 30-40 years.
Edit - Honestly, I don't f*cking know the answer. In general, crime is very very directly related to SES. But we see weird statistical issues like the Black community committing a dispropriate amount of crimes even when SES is controlled for. As I like to say, throwing money at black people does not solve shit. And it is even insulting, somewhat. Money can help, but it needs to be strategically applied. I've talked at length about some of the things which have been shown to help (bringing in better teachers (money), having the police run very well run public-outreach programs, creating a true universal healthcare program, promoting strong black leaders to help change the hearts and minds of the people to steer away from harmful cultural behaviors (sorry, they won't listen to someone like me...just doesn't work. They need strong community leaders from all over and not the thieving mega church preachers), etc.)
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) I am a big propponent of personal responsibility. Yes, the stats point to blacks being disproportionately violent and criminal. Fact is, that is true. But once these facts becomes a justification to percieve (insert race) a certain way, or be assigned blame over something it is prejudice against a race. It is racist.2) I ageee, it is racist. You’re white. Doesn’t that feel racist to you?
Edit. You see, my point is why even have the conversation of skin color at all? When a tragedy happens (drive by or school shooting or a terrorist bomb explodes) the guilt lies in the shooter/bomber, not his race, while there might be underlying social issues that increases the likelyhood of such individuals to act thusly (poverty, lack of education, mental illness) then it these issues that should be addressed directly. “Race” is a smokescreen.
The end game is obviously a color blind society, race should be an irrelevant point, this point we agree on. The only discussions about race should be those that are biologically valid.
But first we have to get to a place where race is truly only a biological state and not a social factor. It is painfully apparent that race is a powerful social force in America. Wealth and politics and the livelihoods of people are attached to a racial thread in this country, and that shouldn't be the case.
Living as if race doesn't matter is idealistic and ignorant of the day-to-day hardships people of color face. It is specifically detached from the experiences of black people in America.
Originally posted by dadudemonAbsolutely 👆, just look at the stats and you can see there is a massive problem. It's not an easy fix by any means.
Right, this indicates we do have an issue. And it needs to be addressed. If you compare "apples to apples" with the Latino community, they are poorer, less educated, but still commit far fewer murders both absolutely and proportionally.Why?
That is something we need to solve and talk about. This is not purely an SES issue.
As Firefly218 pointed out, some of this may be rooted (no pun intended) in the fact that African Americans have lived her for centuries and under oppression whereas Lations are mostly new immigrants in the lsat 30-40 years.
Edit - Honestly, I don't f*cking know the answer. In general, crime is very very directly related to SES. But we see weird statistical issues like the Black community committing a dispropriate amount of crimes even when SES is controlled for. As I like to say, throwing money at black people does not solve shit. And it is even insulting, somewhat. Money can help, but it needs to be strategically applied. I've talked at length about some of the things which have been shown to help (bringing in better teachers (money), having the police run very well run public-outreach programs, creating a true universal healthcare program, promoting strong black leaders to help change the hearts and minds of the people to steer away from harmful cultural behaviors (sorry, they won't listen to someone like me...just doesn't work. They need strong community leaders from all over and not the thieving mega church preachers), etc.)
Originally posted by Firefly218
The end game is obviously a color blind society, race should be an irrelevant point, this point we agree on. The only discussions about race should be those that are biologically valid.
This is obviously the correct "path." However, as I pointed out, tribalism is part of our genetics. It is what helped early humans survive. This also leads to problems such as "this person looks different, not my tribe, let's be cautious and afraid" behaviors. Which is racism.
The news has taken the place of our tribal leaders and elders with the storytelling and fear-induction about other tribes. This is why some people are visibly and physically uncomfortable when a Hijab wearing Muslim gets on the bus or the subway with them: they've been "instructed" by our "shamans" to fear this other tribe because they are "bad."
It is part of our genes. It was good for us 10,000+ years ago. Hell, for some people, it is still good for them. But it doesn't work in a modern world. We either change the genes or we work better to train our children to act against their natural instincts.
Originally posted by Firefly218
1) The end game is obviously a color blind society, race should be an irrelevant point, this point we agree on. The only discussions about race should be those that are biologically valid.2) But first we have to get to a place where race is truly only a biological state and not a social factor. It is painfully apparent that race is a powerful social force in America. Wealth and politics and the livelihoods of people are attached to a racial thread in this country, and that shouldn't be the case.
3) Living as if race doesn't matter is idealistic and ignorant of the day-to-day hardships people of color face. It is specifically detached from the experiences of black people in America.
1) Be the change you want others to be. You cannot hope for a better world while still fall into the behavior that is causing all this shit in the first place.
2) You know in the world stage oppression still happens right? You know what the constant is? Wealth, power and most importantly: greed. This is universal. It applies to the US and it applies to the world.
You know that there are rich black folks that oppress ppl, too? And that there are poor white ppl being oppressed as well? Stop and think a moment. Maybe you are looking at the wrong thing.
3) It is not idealistic. It is understanding the problem at its source, not its symptoms. You are too blinded by preconceptions and personal bias to approach the problem objectively.
Originally posted by dadudemonThis is true, everyone is biologically equipped with "tribalism" and discrimination as soon as they exit the womb. But with the emergence of humanitarianism things have been steadily progressing. This Weinstein thing for example signals a seismic shift in the culture of misogyny that has existed without punishment for a long ass time. The flood gates are opening and this shit is no longer acceptable.
This is obviously the correct "path." However, as I pointed out, tribalism is part of our genetics. It is what helped early humans survive. This also leads to problems such as "this person looks different, not my tribe, let's be cautious and afraid" behaviors. Which is racism.The news has taken the place of our tribal leaders and elders with the storytelling and fear-induction about other tribes. This is why some people are visibly and physically uncomfortable when a Hijab wearing Muslim gets on the bus or the subway with them: they've been "instructed" by our "shamans" to fear this other tribe because they are "bad."
It is part of our genes. It was good for us 10,000+ years ago. Hell, for some people, it is still good for them. But it doesn't work in a modern world. We either change the genes or we work better to train our children to act against their natural instincts.
Originally posted by Firefly218
The end game is obviously a color blind society, race should be an irrelevant point, this point we agree on. The only discussions about race should be those that are biologically valid.But first we have to get to a place where race is truly only a biological state and not a social factor. It is painfully apparent that race is a powerful social force in America. Wealth and politics and the livelihoods of people are attached to a racial thread in this country, and that shouldn't be the case.
Living as if race doesn't matter is idealistic and ignorant of the day-to-day hardships people of color face. It is specifically detached from the experiences of black people in America.
1) Be the change you want others to be. You cannot hope for a better world while still falling into the very behavior that is propagating all this shit in the first place.
2) Believe it or not, at its core, your problem isn’t unique. You know in the world stage oppression still happens right? You know what the constant is? Wealth, power and most importantly: greed. This is universal. It applies to the US and it applies to the world.
You know that there are rich black folks that oppress ppl, too? And that there are poor white ppl being oppressed as well? Stop and think a moment. Maybe you are looking at the wrong thing.
3) It is not idealistic. It is understanding the problem at its source, not its symptoms. You are too blinded by preconceptions and personal bias to approach the problem objectively.
Originally posted by NibedicusLet me ask you a question then, since you fall back into the same argument each time.
1) Be the change you want others to be. You cannot hope for a better world while still fall into the behavior that is causing all this shit in the first place.2) You know in the world stage oppression still happens right? You know what the constant is? Wealth, power and most importantly: greed. This is universal. It applies to the US and it applies to the world.
You know that there are rich black folks that oppress ppl, too? And that there are poor white ppl being oppressed as well? Stop and think a moment. Maybe you are looking at the wrong thing.
3) It is not idealistic. It is understanding the problem at its source, not its symptoms. You are too blinded by preconceptions and personal bias to approach the problem objectively.
You say the solution is to behave as if we already live in a post-racial world, in spite of the evidence around us. Would you apply this same logic to someone in late 1800s America?
This isn't a gotcha question, I'd sincerely like to understand.
If someone lived in a place which was flagrant in its oppression of a racial group, and the masses were more or less tolerant of this oppression, would the solution be to behave as if the oppression does not exist?
Originally posted by Firefly218
Let me ask you a question then, since you fall back into the same argument each time.You say the solution is to behave as if we already live in a post-racial world, in spite of the evidence around us. Would you apply this same logic to someone in late 1800s America?
This isn't a gotcha question, I'd sincerely like to understand.
If someone lived in a place which was flagrant in its oppression of a racial group, and the masses were more or less tolerant of this oppression, would the solution be to behave as if the oppression does not exist?
Would I strive to push for a solution that strives to educate ppl and create a social shift to be color blind in a time period where color is a big issue? Where ppl are taught to lead by example and where the only race that matter is the human race? Absolutely.
I think if ppl started with this instead of doubling down on differentiating each other by race (further driving a wedge between the races by emphasizing on our differences rather than similarities) things wouldn’t be as bad as it is right now. Ppl would be integrated far easier. We would be a mixed race of humans far sooner (IMO).
Of course. That would also mean laws where race becomes a deciding factor for anything needs to be taken out first and foremost.
It’s not about tolerance of oppression, it is removing the underlying cause to it.
I do understand my way is harder. And change takes time. But we need to take the right step in the right direction and not zigzag because it is easier to blame others than make changes to ourselves first and foremost.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Would I strive to push for a solution that strives to educate ppl and create a social shift to be color blind in a time period where color is a big issue? Where ppl are taught to lead by example and where the only race that matter is the human race? Absolutely.I think if ppl started with this instead of doubling down on differentiating each other by race (further driving a wedge between the races by emphasizing on our differences rather than similarities) things wouldn’t be as bad as it is right now. Ppl would be integrated far easier. We would be a mixed race of humans far sooner (IMO).
Of course. That would also mean laws where race becomes a deciding factor for anything needs to be taken out first and foremost.
It’s not about tolerance of oppression, it is removing the underlying cause to it.
I do understand my way is harder. And change takes time. But we need to take the right step in the right direction and not zigzag because it is easier to blame others than make changes to ourselves first and foremost.
I get your thinking and I agree with the principle behind it, but there is a fundamental disconnect that needs to be addressed. And once again, I am only speaking for America here.
Why do poor white people and poor black people vote in directions so opposite to each other? It would seem that their interests align and yet they have polar opposite politics??? THIS is the question that explains all racial strife in America.
It seems the divide between poor white people and poor black people is in the interest of the powerful, because while the poor fight amongst each other the rich are safe.
The best demonstration of this was the invention of black slavery. When Europeans were still settling the Americas, the rich land owners had with them indentured servants. These indentured servants were white and black, and they were all equally treated like garbage. The conditions were so bad for these indentured servants that the joined together and rioted against the rich land owners. The white AND black servants were in solidarity with each other. The rich land owners became very concerned about this, so they decided to solve the problem by making the black servants slaves. What this did was create a buffer between the black servants and the white servants. The white servants were still treated like absolute garbage, but now instead of associating with the other black servants they would associate with the rich land owners, who were also white. Racism became a solution for these rich land owners.
Do you see what I mean here?
Originally posted by Firefly218
I get your thinking and I agree with the principle behind it, but there is a fundamental disconnect that needs to be addressed. And once again, I am only speaking for America here.Why do poor white people and poor black people vote in directions so opposite to each other? It would seem that their interests align and yet they have polar opposite politics??? THIS is the question that explains all racial strife in America.
It seems the divide between poor white people and poor black people is in the interest of the powerful, because while the poor fight amongst each other the rich are safe.
The best demonstration of this was the invention of black slavery. When Europeans were still settling the Americas, the rich land owners had with them indentured servants. These indentured servants were white and black, and they were all equally treated like garbage. The conditions were so bad for these indentured servants that the joined together and rioted against the rich land owners. The white AND black servants were in solidarity with each other. The rich land owners became very concerned about this, so they decided to solve the problem by making the black servants slaves. What this did was create a buffer between the black servants and the white servants. The white servants were still treated like absolute garbage, but now instead of associating with the other black servants they would associate with the rich land owners, who were also white. Racism became a solution for these rich land owners.
Do you see what I mean here?
Okay. While i find nothing wrong with what you said above, I fail to see how this rebutts anything I’ve said. Or where the disconnect in my argument lies.
Racism and segregation IS a smokescreen. As long as the ppl differentiate themselves and identify by their skin color and not their social conditions, they will never come together. Which weakens the people as a whole and keeps the wealth and power within the minority (the greedy rich, powerful and corrupt).
So what’s your point?
Originally posted by NibedicusThe point is, this is the kind of problem that can't necessarily be solved by living as if it doesn't exist. Colored people can't act color blind when white people have a monopoly on wealth, power and influence.
Okay. While i find nothing wrong with what you said above, I fail to see how this rebutts anything I’ve said. Or where the disconnect in my argument lies.Racism and segregation IS a smokescreen. As long as the ppl differentiate themselves and identify by their skin color and not their social conditions, they will never come together. Which weakens the people as a whole and keeps the wealth and power within the minority (the greedy rich, powerful and corrupt).
So what’s your point?
The point is to push people of color into positions of wealth and power, bring diversity to the ruling class.
Originally posted by Firefly218
The point is, this is the kind of problem that can't necessarily be solved by living as if it doesn't exist. Colored people can't act color blind when white people have a monopoly on wealth, power and influence.The point is to push people of color into positions of wealth and power, bring diversity to the ruling class.
Again, not saying the problem doesn’t exist, I’m saying the problem is being looked at the wrong way.
If both whites and black were color blind, then the problem of seggregation wouldn’t exist.
And if we focus instead on targeting greed instead of race, then ppl can come together blacks, whites, browns, w/e and force social change as a unified ppl instead of a bunch of scattered bickering tribalists.
As the point is to prevent oppression by the rich and poweful. Not to make oppressors more diverse. You gotta get your priorities right.