The sheer fact that you cannot grasp that those two feats are actually better than what Steve routinely shows says it all.
I mean, seriously, if even mild steel has a yield strength of 18 tons per square inch, yet Luke was able to physically crush a much larger area than a single square inch, what does that tell you about Luke? Come on, it's really not that hard.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Don't you just love how he claims we posted no feats to back our claims in another thread, even though you directly brought up the SUV stop (a roughly 2.5 ton vehicle going at least 25mph, stopped over a distance of about 0.4m, based on the crumple zone post-impact), or me posting him crushing a steel dumpster (and even mild steel has a yield strength of about 250 MPa, or about 18 tons per square inch).
It's simply infuriating that the 8 year old refuses to acknowledge anything but what he wants to be. Cage could sling an M1 Abrams tank, and Josh would still say "Cap held a helicopter, he is teh gr8t3st!!
Originally posted by KingD19
It's simply infuriating that the 8 year old refuses to acknowledge anything but what he wants to be. Cage could sling an M1 Abrams tank, and Josh would still say "Cap held a helicopter, he is teh gr8t3st!!
I wouldn't be surprised if he actually thinks that the SUV feat is only a 2.5 ton force feat because that's what the vehicle weighs.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
The sheer fact that you cannot grasp that those two feats are actually better than what Steve routinely shows says it all.I mean, seriously, if even mild steel has a yield strength of 18 tons per square inch, yet Luke was able to physically crush a much larger area than a single square inch, what does that tell you about Luke? Come on, it's really not that hard.
Okay little boy.
Lets play science since you seem so eagerly confident on Cage.
In Civil War Captain America was able to pierce and penetrate Iron Man's suit.
Which is actually made up of a Gold Titanium Alloy.
The Strength of such alloy is of arround 890MPa or fairly 4x that of common steel.
Now COME ON, its not really that hard to realize that your feat has already been utterly demolished.....
So do you have any greater feat?
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay little boy.Lets play science since you seem so eagerly confident on Cage.
In Civil War Captain America was able to pierce and penetrate Iron Man's suit.
Which is actually made up of a Gold Titanium Alloy.
The Strength of such alloy is of arround 890MPa or fairly 4x that of common steel.
Now COME ON, its not really that hard to realize that your feat has already been utterly demolished.....
So do you have any greater feat?
Do you mean when he used his indestructible Vibranium shield that cut into Ultron easily? Against the absolute weakest armor Tony has ever produced aside from the original one he used to escape the 10 Rings? Shut up.
Originally posted by KingD19
It's simply infuriating that the 8 year old refuses to acknowledge anything but what he wants to be. Cage could sling an M1 Abrams tank, and Josh would still say "Cap held a helicopter, he is teh gr8t3st!!
Ohh you dont even know what yiu are talking about.
Atleast TheVault is trying. But keep it up.
Cheerleading suits you well baby! 😉
Originally posted by KingD19
Do you mean when he used his indestructible Vibranium shield that cut into Ultron easily? Against the absolute weakest armor Tony has ever produced aside from the original one he used to escape the 10 Rings? Shut up.
......Last time i check the Shield doesnt apply the force..Its the user.
Let the big boys speak.
This is a discussion between me and TheVault.
Cheerlead all you want, just keep the stupidities away.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay little boy.Lets play science since you seem so eagerly confident on Cage.
In Civil War Captain America was able to pierce and penetrate Iron Man's suit.
Which is actually made up of a Gold Titanium Alloy.
The Strength of such alloy is of arround 890MPa or fairly 4x that of common steel.
Now COME ON, its not really that hard to realize that your feat has already been utterly demolished.....
So do you have any greater feat?
Are you seriously trying to use an number of an alloy that was only discovered 8 years after the first IM film was made to hold those characteristics, and therefore had zero bearing on what the writers were actually thinking at the time? And then not only that, use a feat that was assisted by a thin-edged vibranium shield in comparison with something Luke did without any tools?
I know you are trying hard but, damn, that's some desperation right there. Because, beyond everything else, just because both are a gold-titanium alloy, it does not make them equal. It depends on the treatment, material ratios, structure etc.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Are you seriously trying to use an number of an alloy that was only discovered 8 years after the first IM film was made to hold those characteristics, and therefore had zero bearing on what the writers were actually thinking at the time? And then not only that, use a feat that was assisted by a thin-edged vibranium shield in comparison with something Luke did without any tools?I know you are trying hard but, damn, that's some desperation right there. Because, beyond everything else, just because both are a gold-titanium alloy, it does not make them equal. It depends on the treatment, material ratios, structure etc.
The Alloy is scientifically 890MPa strong. Its scientifically proven. Research.
Force still needs to be applied to breach the metal. The Shield acts as a tool whereas Cap applies the force.
Also the Shield isnt the best tool to breach a metal. Isnt like the Shield itself is helping him much.
Taking that into consideration and assuming that the shield is rediculously aiding Cap with half the strength. Cap would still have to apply 400+MPa of strength to breach it.
Which is already 2x that of the feat of Luke.
But as I said. A shield isnt the best tool to breach something.
I was checking some webpages.
Based on character details. Cage and Cap oscillate arround the same strength Levels.
However based on screen feats Cap takes the lead until now.
TheVault I know Cage strength could rival Caps. However the Series havent gave him anything to the moment to do so.
Screen Feat wise Cap wins i assure you.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The Alloy is scientifically 890MPa strong. Its scientifically proven. Research.Force still needs to be applied to breach the metal. The Shield acts as a tool whereas Cap applies the force.
Also the Shield isnt the best tool to breach a metal. Isnt like the Shield itself is helping him much.
Taking that into consideration and assuming that the shield is rediculously aiding Cap with half the strength. Cap would still have to apply 400+MPa of strength to breach it.
Which is already 2x that of the feat of Luke.
But as I said. A shield isnt the best tool to breach something.
An indestructible shield with a thin edge can definitely help with breaching a tough material. Because it helps focus the force of the strike over a much smaller area. It is also tougher than Steve's fist, which would also improve the odds of breaching the armour.
But anyway, none of your post means anything unless you can prove that IM's gold-titanium alloy has the exact same atomic structure, ratios, got the same treatments etc. Because, as I said, the particular gold-titanium alloy that possesses those characteristics was only found to do so in 2016. IM1 is 2008. So, you would need to prove they are the same. Because not all alloys automatically are.
And that is why I chose mild steel. Luke has actually crushed/bent/twisted stronger alloys, but mild steel is commonly used, thoroughly tested (long before Luke bent any steel on the show), and provides a good low-end baseline number. What's more, your conclusion that just because the yield or tensile strength is more automatically makes it better is HUGELY flawed for a very obvious reason. The area Luke affects is much larger than the area Steve affects, which factors into how much force would need to be applied.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
An indestructible shield with a thin edge can definitely help with breaching a tough material. Because it helps focus the force of the strike over a much smaller area. It is also tougher than Steve's fist, which would also improve the odds of breaching the armour.But anyway, none of your post means anything unless you can prove that IM's gold-titanium alloy has the exact same atomic structure, ratios, got the same treatments etc. Because, as I said, the particular gold-titanium alloy that possesses those characteristics was only found to do so in 2016. IM1 is 2008. So, you would need to prove they are the same. Because not all alloys automatically are.
And that is why I chose mild steel. Luke has actually crushed/bent/twisted stronger alloys, but mild steel is commonly used, thoroughly tested (long before Luke bent any steel on the show), and provides a good low-end baseline number. What's more, your conclusion that just because the yield or tensile strength is more automatically makes it better is HUGELY flawed for a very obvious reason. The area Luke affects is much larger than the area Steve affects, which factors into how much force would need to be applied.
Good try TheVaultDweller. You are seriously trying hard but....Its not enough.
Just see the bright side of things, you were able to learn something today.
Try to use the same Shield to pierce it and tell me if its possible.
Get a Diamond edge pick and try to pierce a Bank's Vault (Which isnt likely to have the same Strength as Gold Titanium Alloy) and tell me if youll be able to open it.
Even so. Tony Stark would make his suits stronger than Common steel.
The official sites say that Tony's MK46 suit is made of Gold Titanium Alloy.
Unless proven otherwise, its tensile strength is 4x that of steel.
If you have evidence to disprove such numbers now its your time to bring them.
I doubt Cage has bent anything to the numbers of Gold Titanium Alloy.
Else prove it.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I was checking some webpages.Based on character details. Cage and Cap oscillate arround the same strength Levels.
However based on screen feats Cap takes the lead until now.
TheVault I know Cage strength could rival Caps. However the Series havent gave him anything to the moment to do so.
Screen Feat wise Cap wins i assure you.
I would have to disagree. But either way, I personally never considered there to be a big gap. Some people think there is, but I think they are actually quite close. Because Luke has better feats in some areas, while Steve has better in others. Put it this way, I don't think strength alone is going to give either of them a big edge in a fight, regardless of who you think is stronger.
Overall though, I would say that Cap is superior though. Because he most definitely outclasses Luke in speed, agility and actual fighting skill.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I would have to disagree. But either way, I personally never considered there to be a big gap. Some people think there is, but I think they are actually quite close. Because Luke has better feats in some areas, while Steve has better in others. Put it this way, I don't think strength alone is going to give either of them a big edge in a fight, regardless of who you think is stronger.Overall though, I would say that Cap is superior though. Because he most definitely outclasses Luke in speed, agility and actual fighting skill.
I agree.
However the series havent given Cage feats enough to surpass Cap.
Many fans deslike the way how the Series depowered Cage.
Cage currently oscillates arround a 30tons maybe even 40 as an exaggeration.
Cap has feats that put him as a 60tonner.
Maybe in future episodes Cage can match such numbers.
Until now Cap is stronger. Feat wise.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Good try TheVaultDweller. You are seriously trying hard but....Its not enough.Just see the bright side of things, you were able to learn something today.
Try to use the same Shield to pierce it and tell me if its possible.
Get a Diamond edge pick and try to pierce a Bank's Vault (Which isnt likely to have the same Strength as Gold Titanium Alloy) and tell me if youll be able to open it.
Even so. Tony Stark would make his suits stronger than Common steel.
The official sites say that Tony's MK46 suit is made of Gold Titanium Alloy.
Unless proven otherwise, its tensile strength is 4x that of steel.
If you have evidence to disprove such numbers now its your time to bring them.
I doubt Cage has bent anything to the numbers of Gold Titanium Alloy.
Else prove it.
Do you seriously think I was unaware of the RL gold-titanium alloy? lol. I've been aware of it since the one youtuber, Gubz (IIRC), mentioned it in a video. But, as I said, not all alloys are the same. Just because both contain gold and titanium does not make them equal. Alloys can vary greatly depending on, for example, the titanium to gold ratio, in this instance.
Also, what kind of strawman nonsense is that? I never said that the vibranium shield is the only thing that achieved the feat. But to act like an indestructible object with a sharp edge doesn't have greater piercing power than a less durable fist is just being obtuse.
And I don't need to prove a negative when you have yet to actually prove that Tony's gold-titanium alloy has the exact same composition as the RL example.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Do you seriously think I was unaware of the RL gold-titanium alloy? lol. I've been aware of it since the one youtuber, Gubz (IIRC), mentioned it in a video. But, as I said, not all alloys are the same. Just because both contain gold and titanium does not make them equal. Alloys can vary greatly depending on, for example, the titanium to gold ratio, in this instance.Also, what kind of strawman nonsense is that? I never said that the vibranium shield is the only thing that achieved the feat. But to act like an indestructible object with a sharp edge doesn't have greater piercing power than a less durable fist is just being obtuse.
And I don't need to prove a negative when you have yet to actually prove that Tony's gold-titanium alloy has the exact same composition as the RL example.
I made a quick research and the Gold Titanium Alloys strength variates from 3x to 4x stronger than common steel.
That means that regardless of the variation of Alloy. The Strength is still far from Cage's feat.
Also, you are insulting Tony Stark's intellect by saying he wont use the best alloy for his suit. It's really illogical.
When is it stated that Cap's Shield edge is sharp?
As I said before a Shield isnt the best object to pierce something.
Cap would still have to apply considerable strength to make the shield pierce it.
Even if the Shield safes Cap half the strength. The feat still surpasses Cage.
As i said before, Featwise Captain America is stronger than Cage.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I made a quick research and the Gold Titanium Alloys strength variates from 3x to 4x stronger than common steel.That means that regardless of the variation of Alloy. The Strength is still far from Cage's feat.
Also, you are insulting Tony Stark's intellect by saying he wont use the best alloy for his suit. It's really illogical.
When is it stated that Cap's Shield edge is sharp?
As I said before a Shield isnt the best object to pierce something.
Cap would still have to apply considerable strength to make the shield pierce it.
Even if the Shield safes Cap half the strength. The feat still surpasses Cage.
As i said before, Featwise Captain America is stronger than Cage.
You clearly are not grasping the point of my argument there. At the time IM's version of that alloy was created, the 4 times stronger version had not been discovered. So, it is not anything to do with Tony Stark being intelligent or not. It is simply to do with available tech at the time of the first film.
The edge is a hell of a lot sharper than Steve's fist is. And a much smaller surface area when striking. And a lot more durable. Even if it is not the "best", it is a MUCH better alternative than using a bare fist. Again, to ignore this is being obtuse.
And you have still failed to address the biggest flaw in your argument. The size of affected area, which I pointed out earlier. Again, yield or tensile strength is not the only factor. The actual area affected plays a huge part. So, even if we assume that the armour is as tough as you say (even though Hawkeye's arrows could pierce the plating in CW), it still would not necessarily make it a better feat.
But anyway, considering you apparently seem to consider MCU Captain America a 60 tonner (which I do not even remotely agree with), there really is no point in continuing this.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You clearly are not grasping the point of my argument there. At the time IM's version of that alloy was created, the 4 times stronger version had not been discovered. So, it is not anything to do with Tony Stark being intelligent or not. It is simply to do with available tech at the time of the first film.The edge is a hell of a lot sharper than Steve's fist is. And a much smaller surface area when striking. And a lot more durable. Even if it is not the "best", it is a MUCH better alternative than using a bare fist. Again, to ignore this is being obtuse.
And you have still failed to address the biggest flaw in your argument. The size of affected area, which I pointed out earlier. Again, yield or tensile strength is not the only factor. The actual area affected plays a huge part. So, even if we assume that the armour is as tough as you say (even though Hawkeye's arrows could pierce the plating in CW), it still would not necessarily make it a better feat.
But anyway, considering you apparently seem to consider MCU Captain America a 60 tonner (which I do not even remotely agree with), there really is no point in continuing this.
You are saying that Iron Man built his suits prior to the discovery of the 4x GT alloy!
The one who isnt grasping me here is you. Even if Tony's first suit isnt made of the alloy of GT that is 4x stronger than steel, it is still FAR MORE DURABLE than any common steel.
The Gold Titanium alloys range from a 3x to a 4x+ strength when compared to Steel.
That means that the whichever Alloy Tony used it should still Triple that of Cage's feat.
You also forget that Tony is constantly improving and upgrading its suits.
Even if the first models of the MK suit were made of the weaker GT alloy, the MK46 which appeared in Civil War SHOULD possess the 4x stronger alloy.
The 4x GT alloy already existed by the time of Civil War
Am not saying that the shield DIDNT aid Cap in anything.
However if we do math and consider that the shield doubled the force applied Cap would still require 400+MPa to rupture it!
And i mean...A SHIELD! A SHIELD wont really double the force! Not even 1/3 of it!
A shield isnt the tool that would help you rupture a Vault in a Bank. Else i dare you try it.
Cap pierced the Armor. He actually ruptured it. He didnt just scratch it.
890MPa is required for that. No flaw.
According to Agents of Shield which is canonical Cap was able to move a parked Bulldozer across a field while in rehab.
Such Bulldozer should be arroud 60Tons according to the model of the vehicle. That without considering the friction generated!
Since Impediment stated that Movie Statements are valid for debating Cap is a 60tonner.
Can Cage match such weights? Can he surpass that feat?
If so youve won the debate.
Also remember Infinity War is coming....I expect Cap performing something amazing before dying....
So, maybe Cap still got to show his best Strength feat.