Darth Tenebrous vs Supreme Leader Snoke

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke says he's seen Rey's raw power only once before in Ben Solo (not Palpatine, not Yoda, not Vader, not even himself though he may not be counting himself).

I don't think that's a valid comparison, given that the term "raw" is probably being used to describe something that's untrained and inexperienced. I highly doubt Luke was looking at Rey and sizing her up to the seasoned veterans he only met while he was just a squire himself. Given that Yoda, Palpatine & Vader were all masters in Force, their power cannot be described as raw, meaning that they can probably be ruled out from this statement. A more reasonable suggestion, is that this puts Reylo directly above the other students of academy - other raw and inexperienced individuals that would have been overseen by Luke. Which means precisely jack shit in comparison to any member of the PT Jedi council.

Snoke thinks Ben Solo could eventually become powerful enough to defeat Luke, per the Visual Dictionary.

Okay, so not that Ben's potential is the same as Luke Skywalker's potential. Just that he might be able to beat the old hermit pussy hiding on some remote island, who dulled his own force connection.

Snoke didn't know Luke cut himself from the Force. He could be training a secret army for all he knew.

So we agree there's a bit of speculation and subjectivity to this statement, which by itself, doesn't validate snoke's own assessment of Luke. Not that he himself is being humble, but instead, that he might actually be overestimating Skywalker. On there other hand, if his word indeed infallible, then Snoke is weaker than Luke, but still leagues ahead of Reylo. If that's the case, then Kylo hasn't actually reached anywhere near his "potential", in spite of whatever training he has received or how long he's received it. Meaning that his current power level is nebulous. Is he even above the likes of Coleman Trebor? Possibly, which is why I give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that he's early CW Shaak Ti level, who's probably on par with Hope Satele Shan. This is based on objective showings of the characters.

It's not at all mutually exclusive to say that Kylo is much more powerful than Shaak Ti but far weaker than Luke. I have no idea how you're gauging this from objective showings given that their feats are just circular and scaled off one another.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not at all mutually exclusive to say that Kylo is much more powerful than Shaak Ti but far weaker than Luke.

That's nice and all. But until you can actually show me why Kylo is much more powerful than the best council members, making the claim is actually less than pointless. It's also not at all mutually exclusive to say that Kylo is on the same level as Shaak Ti, but has the potential to maybe be better than Luke someday, but currently isn't even close. On the other hand, I don't really see how someone much more powerful than Shaak ti, would ever allow Finn to get a hit on them with a lightsaber.

Especially when the only prior experience the character has had with the weapon, is getting his ass handed to him by a random Storm Trooper

Meaning that the comparison between Kylo and Shaak ti is actually being generous to him, when you consider that Shaak ti is never discredited with such a low end showing, let alone someone far more powerful than her.

I have no idea how you're gauging this from objective showings given that their feats are just circular and scaled off one another.

So you're actually admitting that your entire methodology behind scaling Kylo is circular. Well that's exactly my point. Meaning we need a more objective showing. And there is one feat that gives us an idea just how strong he is in the force, although it's not found in the primary source material. In the TFA Novel, Kylo manages to erect a force barrier to stop Rey's lightsbaer, but does eventually get overwhelmed. Both Shaak ti and Satele Shan have been in the same situation against their opponents, Malgus, and Grievous. This is as good a comparison at it gets, while still being generous to Ren, considering his low end feats : getting tagged by Finn, being held dead to rights by a faceless imperial guard Praetorian Guard, the latter of which, if confirmed to be non force sensitive, lowers Kylo even more.

Originally posted by An_Sock
On the other hand, I don't really see how someone much more powerful than Shaak ti, would ever allow Finn to get a hit on them with a lightsaber.

Kylo had been shot by a bowcaster, and the novelization made it clear that killing Han greatly disturbed him / he wasn't exactly in a normal mental state. The movie makes the former pretty clear too as it makes it a point to emphasize that he's bleeding and in apparent pain.

So you're actually admitting that your entire methodology behind scaling Kylo is circular.

No, because my whole methodology has been trying to bridge that gap by taking the data point that can actually be scaled vs. the PT/OT (Force potential) and then trying to extrapolate how much of that potential was actualized. It's incredibly rough guesswork but it's better than nothing or saying he's weak because of how he fought in the worst possible set of conditions.

I mean, getting tagged by Finn isn't that bad. Look at the mirror with the ESB duel.

ESB - Vader gets tagged by Luke. Vader goes "okay **** this, I'm done playin'" and immediately disarms Luke.

TFA - Kylo gets tagged, Kylo immediately disarms Finn, he's clearly had enough.

Again, there's even more similarities. Vader plays with Luke countless times, where Vader could easily kill him. Again, in TFA, we see Kylo power attack Finn, who falls on the ground. Kylo looks like a mentor, turning away and waiting for Finn to get back up. He also casually moves his body to block Finn's attacks.

In no way does the tagging take away from Ben. You've just blatantly ignored the context.

Again, just to make it abundantly clear.

When Vader got tagged, his immediate follow up was disarming Luke.

When Kylo got tagged, the immediate follow up was disarming Finn.

Someone clearly hasn't bothered to read the novelisation.

Finn was fighting bravely, and Kylo was hurt from Chewbacca’s earlier shot, but Finn was still no match for Kylo’s practiced attacks. With a mighty blow, Kylo knocked Finn to the ground, wounding him.

- Rey's Story

Drawing himself up, a towering figure in the snow, Ren did not even bother to gesture. “I’m going to kill you for it.” He rushed forward. Despite his feat, Finn raised the beam to defend himself. Ren lunged, struck—Finn parried. Shards of light flew, illuminating the snow and the surrounding vegetation. Drawing back slightly, Ren considered his unexpectedly determined opponent, then resumed his assault with a vengeance.

Finn blocked him again and again, once letting the other man’s beam slide against his own and harmlessly off to one side. He counterattacked, to no avail. The longer the contest continued, the stronger Ren seemed to become. It was as if he was enjoying the challenge. Feeding upon it.

At least, it appeared so until Finn parried, swung, and unexpectedly stabbed, the tip of his lightsaber beam grazing Ren’s arm. That made it more than a challenge. Taking a step back, Ren reconsidered his opponent. When he closed the distance between them anew, it was with a purpose that had been previously lacking. Expecting an execution, he had found a contest. Now he had been touched. It was time for play to end.

Advancing relentlessly, he was driven by something that Finn could not even sense, far less counter. Still the ex-trooper fought back, until Ren landed a blow that cut across Finn’s chest and sent the lightsaber flying from his hand. It landed in the snow six meters distant. It was over.

- The Force Awakens

Finn's one of the best overall combatants in the First Order, period:

Whatever the test, whatever the evaluation, FN-2187 consistently scored in the top 1 percent.

- Before The Awakening

Again, Kylo Ren was severely wounded:

Stunned by his own action, Kylo Ren fell to this knees. Following through on the act ought to have made him stronger, a part of him believed. Instead, he found himself weakened.

- The Force Awakens

Amid the rising bedlam and confusion, Kylo Ren struggled to stand.

- The Force Awakens

In fact, Kylo Ren couldn't even use the Force properly:

The hilt wobbled in the snow. Pulling it through the Force proved more strenuous than it should. The pain of Ren's wound clouded his concentration.
- The Force Awakens junior novelisation

Beyond that, Kylo Ren is an all-time most powerful combatant in the entire mythos:

Kylo Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, is one of the most powerful combatants in the history of Star Wars, and is the leader of the Knights of Ren.

- StarWars.com

Shaak Ti would get butchered.

Originally posted by samappo
Again, just to make it abundantly clear.

When Vader got tagged, his immediate follow up was disarming Luke.

When Kylo got tagged, the immediate follow up was disarming Finn.

To be fair, ESB Luke >>>>>> Finn, but I see your point.

The point was solidified by Ancient Power. There's no denying that Kylo is a good combatant, and when he actually got serious he won easily against Finn, and he would have beaten Rey if he hadn't have stopped and started talking to her.

Fully aware of all the surrounding circumstances of the Kylo Ren v Finn fight. It still cheapens him. I still challenge you all to find me a showing as bad as that for Shaak or someone more powerful than her.

1) To Sampoo, Luke and finn aren't remotely comparable. Luke is a force prodigy. Finn is not. Luke hasn't been seen loosing a fight to a random storm trooper, finn has. If your saying those comparisons parallel each other, all it does is show how hilariously below Vader Kylo really is.

2) To AP, being in the top 1 percent of storm troopers doesn't make you anywhere close to being one of the best combatants in the first order. Do you even understand percentages? It makes just makes him better than every other one-hundred soldier out of, what... millions, Billions? Lets say there are only one million troopers in the empire, Finn being in the 99 percentile (the top 1%) only puts him in the top 10,000. And as we see in the film, those odds aren't good enough to dodge an encounter with your combative better, when Finn is easily defeated by a random storm trooper in a battle field. And Kylo performs worse than that Random storm trooper with his wounds/ hinderances against finn.

No, i'm not going to ignore something like that just because Kylo got shot and has daddy issues.

Originally posted by An_Sock
Fully aware of all the surrounding circumstances of the Kylo Ren v Finn fight. It still cheapens him. I still challenge you all to find me a showing as bad as that for Shaak or someone more powerful than her.

Obi Wan vs. Jango Fett or Obi Wan/Maul vs. Pre Vizsla, lol. Though I guess AotC Obi Wan isn't on Shaak Ti's level.

But you can't just say "I know of the circumstances...but they don't matter" without explaining why they don't matter.

Originally posted by An_Sock
I still challenge you all to find me a showing as bad as that for Shaak

😬

It's not "Sampoo"...

Anyway, I'm merely explaining the situation by showing something similar.

Point is, Kylo gets tagged, literally next thing Kylo meets Finn's lightsaber then flings it into the snow, then finishes Finn. That's it.

Originally posted by samappo
It's not "Sampoo"...

Anyway, I'm merely explaining the situation by showing something similar.

Point is, Kylo gets tagged, literally next thing Kylo meets Finn's lightsaber then flings it into the snow, then finishes Finn. That's it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's blatantly obvious that Abrams did a call-back to the ESB fight with Kylo vs Finn. 👆

Yes, thank you.

It's there to remind us that Kylo is just playin, just like Vader was. They were both like Ok, these guys aren't children, and they pissed me off, so I'm done.

Now you're genuinely attempting to ignore Canon and you've also completely glossed over the fact that when Finn fought his bestfriend he was using a weapon that he had no prior experience or training with. An impressive thing nonetheless given how far Canon has gone to establish that you're more likely to kill yourself trying to weild a lightsaber without Jedi reflexes.

Originally posted by AncientPower
An impressive thing nonetheless given how far Canon has gone to establish that you're more likely to kill yourself trying to weild a lightsaber without Jedi reflexes.

Is that something that New Canon has said?

Why is something about lightsabers or whatever being argued anyway? Snoke doesn't have anything relating to that.