Originally posted by darthbane77
First, apologies for not quoting. I don't really debate here often, so I'm not really acquainted with the formatting.1: Right. I understand where just about everyone on this forum comes from, I just disagree with way most of you guys rank the characters. Just a simple difference in thinking, 🙂
2: 👆
3: Yeah, the TCW example is definitely better, imho. Since it kinda straddles the line between the EU and the films, in that it's designed to better fit the films, but is also a little bit beyond the films in regards to showing the power of individual characters.
4: Because a feat is a direct showing of a character's capabilities. Feats performed without circumstances surrounding them can be used to place a character accurately, feats performed with special circumstances can be used to do the same in different ways, or to better analyze and learn how the universe of tat mythos works, etc. An accolade is just a statement. Pablo Hidalgo could say Ahsoka>Vader if he wanted to, as an accolade in some sourcebook, but the feats demonstrated by them both, being direct manifestations of their individual power, obviously contradict that statement. Basically, I place characters more based on what I can see and analyze more in depth, rather than just what's said in some random sourcebook. Again, that's not to say I just disregard accolades altogether, I only disregard the ones I feel are contradicted by feats.
5: I think my above paragraph answers this as well.
6: Right, that's exactly my point. Accolades can be just as insane as feats, there's no reason to treat them as literal truth. I'm just pointing out the "what if" of those two characters being given accolades that would place them above the likes of Yoda or Sidious, and how based on what I've seen of this forum, those accolades would be treated.
7: Eeeh, tbh, I find CV to generally be pretty cancerous. More so than even this forum, lol.
Oh I agree completely with this, no mythology is entirely consistent, and there's no real answers concerning many of the topics that are debated here and elsewhere. Although I do wish authors would keep VS debates in mind sometimes, it would make things SOOOOO much easier for us, haha.
Fair enough, I was just pointing out what seems to be the general norm, and how KMC is an outlier.
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Personal sidenote, I kinda hope these last couple debates I've had in the past day or two (with you, Urs, ILS, among others) proves the forum that I'm not an idiot, and that I CAN actually debate. lol
Yeah, it's ok, KMC's formatting is a nightmare. I'll just do numbers as well to make this easy.
3 & 6. Yes, that's exactly my point. TCW is a nightmare to try and reconcile with other feats. There's a few quotes like that as well, of course. I don't think saying "accolades > feats" is an accurate representation of my stance, regardless. It's just that given an instance in which a comparison of feats involves significant ambiguity, and accolades are very clear on the matter, I take the accolades. That's obvious enough.
4. Accolades already put Vader above Ahsoka, though. You're assuming Pablo or anyone else is going to make some sort of absurd statement, which they won't. As I said, we can resolve most of these issues without even having to touch feats or go outside the realm of accolades. If we were in an absurd enough position to have a quote saying X > Y but a fight involving Y literally one-shotting X without circumstances, I would pick the latter as well and treat the quote as a simple inaccuracy. But that doesn't accurately capture the issue of Sidious vs Valkorion, or most instances where we're using accolades. They're not examples of absurd conflict between accolades and feats, which are extremely rare in the mythos. So we don't need to deal with that.
7. Alright.
As for your side note, don't worry about debating reputation. I mean, if you're fine with being a nerd like the rest of us, just debate a lot, learn from it, keep evolving and you'll keep rising through the ranks. I don't think it's that important outside of forum politics and shit like that, lol. Though I understand why you'd feel the need to be elevated, particularly out of the shitter tiers.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
On this sidenote, you seem to have improved quite a bit solely debating wise, certainly.
👆
Honestly, before these last couple days, I've never really debated seriously here. Generally I debate in Facebook groups, with the occasional outing to another site. Personally, I'm not concerned personally about my skill as a debater, as far as I'm concerned, I'm as good as just about anyone here (with a few notable exceptions), I just don't like people thinking that I can't debate, when I can.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, it's ok, KMC's formatting is a nightmare. I'll just do numbers as well to make this easy.3 & 6. Yes, that's exactly my point. TCW is a nightmare to try and reconcile with other feats. There's a few quotes like that as well, of course. I don't think saying "accolades > feats" is an accurate representation of my stance, regardless. It's just that given an instance in which a comparison of feats involves significant ambiguity, and accolades are very clear on the matter, I take the accolades. That's obvious enough.
4. Accolades already put Vader above Ahsoka, though. You're assuming Pablo or anyone else is going to make some sort of absurd statement, which they won't. As I said, we can resolve most of these issues without even having to touch feats or go outside the realm of accolades. If we were in an absurd enough position to have a quote saying X > Y but a fight involving Y literally one-shotting X without circumstances, I would pick the latter as well and treat the quote as a simple inaccuracy. But that doesn't accurately capture the issue of Sidious vs Valkorion, or most instances where we're using accolades. They're not examples of absurd conflict between accolades and feats, which are extremely rare in the mythos. So we don't need to deal with that.
7. Alright.
As for your side note, don't worry about debating reputation. I mean, if you're fine with being a nerd like the rest of us, just debate a lot, learn from it, keep evolving and you'll keep rising through the ranks. I don't think it's that important outside of forum politics and shit like that, lol. Though I understand why you'd feel the need to be elevated, particularly out of the shitter tiers.
3&6: Yeah, TCW seems to be almost entirely irreconcilable with the rest of Legends. I've actually been trying to get confirmation from Hidalgo as to whether or not TCW is considered both Legends and Canon, so great are the differences between TCW and Legends.
4: That's fair. I'm not saying Hidalgo would actually put out an accolade like that, again, I'm just making a point as to how I think most on this forum might treat the accolade IF it was somehow made.
7: Yeah, I don't generally care what other people think, unless what other people think is that I'm an idiot. Then I'll make the effort to try and prove otherwise.
Originally posted by darthbane77
Personally, I'm not concerned personally about my skill as a debater,
Heh, no, you very clearly are. Moreso than literally anyone else who comes to mind, actually. 😂
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
If you have enough sources and you aren't an illiterate it's not hard to be as good as the majority.
👆
Originally posted by SunRazer
"Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.""Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
"By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known."
"Emperor Zaarin? The idea isn't as ludicrous as it sounds. Demetrius Zaarin gambled everything on an audacious coup d'état and nearly killed the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known."
"With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader."
"Meet Darth Sidious – the most powerful Sith Master who ever lived."
"The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed."
"Yoda was a master at masking his emotions, but not even he could hide them from the greatest Sith Lord ever known."
"He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side."
"It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression."
"As Luke's father once said, during the time he served the greatest known wielder of the Dark Side of the Force, the Emperor..."
Some of these sources are "outdated"(Dark Empire); some only focus on the time frame of Lucas' canon(the one with Yoda, and most of them amongst these sources you have posted) and do not deviate it from it(if they do; they do it only 'til Darth Bane's era per Lucas' "command"😉 one is from the perspective of an historian character who hasn't lived during the TOR times; another focuses only on the present moment, the one with emperor Zaarin. The last one is clearly from Luke's perspective.
The sixth quote refers to him as the most powerful who ever lived, but is also alluding to his status as a Sith Master/teacher. I think we can all agree that you can be (called)a Sith Lord without being a Sith Master, because that's the title every person takes when they want to become a Sith Lord.
Something tells me that this is made during the movie events. And at that time; Sidious was the only most powerful Sith Master who ever lived, because Maul and Dooku were below him in Force strength.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Heh, no, you very clearly are. Moreso than literally anyone else who comes to mind, actually. 😂
You forgot SithMaster.
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Obviously I know some of them, but not all. Nevertheless, I'll check them out to re-fresh my memory.
Alright.
Originally posted by darthbane77
3&6: Yeah, TCW seems to be almost entirely irreconcilable with the rest of Legends. I've actually been trying to get confirmation from Hidalgo as to whether or not TCW is considered both Legends and Canon, so great are the differences between TCW and Legends.4: That's fair. I'm not saying Hidalgo would actually put out an accolade like that, again, I'm just making a point as to how I think most on this forum might treat the accolade IF it was somehow made.
7: Yeah, I don't generally care what other people think, unless what other people think is that I'm an idiot. Then I'll make the effort to try and prove otherwise.
1. I assume it would have to be both. If TCW has no place in Legends, then that just makes several Legends works make no sense as they're derived from TCW.
2. Well, I've explained my stance on the matter.
3. Alright, lol.
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Some of these sources are "outdated"(Dark Empire); some only focus on the time frame of Lucas' canon(the one with Yoda, and most of them amongst these sources you have posted) and do not deviate it from it(if they do; they do it only 'til Darth Bane's era per Lucas' "command"😉 one is from the perspective of an historian character who hasn't lived during the TOR times; another focuses only on the present moment, the one with emperor Zaarin. The last one is clearly from Luke's perspective.The sixth quote refers to him as the most powerful who ever lived, but is also alluding to his status as a Sith Master/teacher. I think we can all agree that you can be (called)a Sith Lord without being a Sith Master, because that's the title every person takes when they want to become a Sith Lord.
Something tells me that this is made during the movie events. And at that time; Sidious was the only most powerful Sith Master who ever lived, because Maul and Dooku were below him in Force strength.
You're making an awful lot of thin complaints. You do realise the multitude of quotes in of themselves practically negate any point in making minor nitpicks about them, right? They correlate far too strongly for individual questions of reliability to matter. It would only be valid if you seriously believed that all of these quotes referred only to his time frame and not all of history, which of course isn't true.
Most of these, if not all, have nothing to do with Lucas, so I don't know why you're constraining them to his time frame. Even the Insider quotes are clearly mentioning all of history. How does the one with Zaarin only focus on the present moment when it literally states "the galaxy has ever known"? Complaints about it being a historian or something (which is just to provide the source with an identifiable lens) are always blown out of proportion. At best, you show that the quote is fallible, not that it is wrong, and the fallibility issue is again irrelevant due to the sheer quantity of sources reiterating the same point: that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
The "Sith Master" complaint is ludicrous. Vitiate counts as a Sith Master, as he trained Exal Kressh from the comics. And I know English is not your first language, but that's some seriously poor reading there. Most powerful Sith Master "who ever lived" suddenly only applies to the movie era because that's when Sidious lived? What? "Who ever lived" means just that; who ever lived in the history of Star Wars, be it Nihilus, Revan, Vitiate, Tenebrous or Plagueis.
There's no such thing as "outdated" quotes, unless they've actually been retconned. Quotes aren't milk cartons with expiry dates, in the same way that feats aren't. Until an actual contradiction arises, they stand perfectly fine. By your logic, every time a new Sith character is introduced, every single quote about being the most powerful (whether it be Sidious, Vitiate, Plagueis etc.) is instantly discarded, which fails to construct any degree of continuity, which is what I am to achieve when debating SW. Sequels would instantly decanonise their prequels; again, continuity could never be constructed. So I don't consider that a valid approach.