Originally posted by KentoNot sure where you're getting this from, but it's not quite accurate.
The Goku on Namek part is a completely different thing, and can't be looked at with Tagoma. Ginyu, who has used the technique plenty of times, is confident he can use the body without any troubles. It's Goku who is saying he can't use the body because Goku's power comes from mind and body being as one. Had he taken over Vegeta's body he would have been able to fully access the power. Goku's martial artist mind, and body is what stopped Ginyu not any ability to not be fully accustomed to the body.
In the manga Goku outright states that the main reason why Ginyu cannot bring out his body's full power is simply because he cannot control ki:
https://i.imgur.com/BCVZCWW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PP36WDo.jpg
...And since Goku was able to increase his PL to 180,000 with a standard Kaioken when he fought Ginyu, we know his max PL w/o multipliers back then was ~90,000. Given that 'Ginku' could only reach a PL of 23,000, it means Ginyu's lack of ki-control only enabled him to utilize about 1/4 of Goku's BASE power(never mind kaioken amps, lol.) Silly as it seems, this does make sense by DB standards, as controlling ki like the Z Fighters was an exceedingly rare ability at the time -- that's why Freeza and all his goons were shocked at the ability to do so, for example:
https://i.imgur.com/L3bKnfX.jpg
But for what it's worth, Goku(who obviously IS a fighting prodigy that CAN control ki better than nearly anyone) couldn't control Ginyu's body either:
https://i.imgur.com/Y9O7uvt.jpg
That said, we know that Tagoma was also capable of controlling his ki and powering up like the Z Fighters can -- that's why Goten noted a huge spike in ki right after Tagoma powered up with a visible aura around himself:
*And given what Goten has sensed in the past, he wouldn't call something a "strong energy" if it wasn't really, REALLY powerful... This was also just before Gohan stated that Tagoma's power was on par with his own Boo-era Mystic self, btw.
In summary: if Ginyu couldn't control ki on Namek, then he most certainly would NOT be able to control it on earth. As mentioned, he'd spent the entire time since Namek in the guise of a FROG, ffs... So it's not like he's been fine-tuning the body-swap technique in the years since Namek, lol. IOW, he would have been just as inept at controlling bodies that powered up via ki-control on earth(ie. Tagoma), as he was on Namek(ie. Goku).
Tack that onto the fact that 'Ginoma' was easily one-shotted by a pathetic/weak ass Super Saiyan, and there is absolutely NO reason to believe that he was anywhere near as powerful as Tagoma himself was -- let alone 'more' powerful, lol. Piccolo's comment is completely bogus, imo.
Originally posted by Galan007
Not sure where you're getting this from, but it's not quite accurate.In the manga Goku outright states that the main reason why Ginyu cannot bring out his body's full power is simply because he cannot control ki:
of Goku's BASE power(never mind kaioken amps, lol.) Silly as it seems, this does make sense by DB standards, as controlling ki like the Z Fighters was an exceedingly rare ability at the time -- that's why Freeza and all his goons were shocked at the ability to do so, for example:
https://i.imgur.com/BCVZCWW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PP36WDo.jpg
...And since Goku was able to increase his PL to 180,000 with a standard Kaioken when he fought Ginyu, we know his max PL w/o multipliers back then was ~90,000. Given that 'Ginku' could only reach a PL of 23,000, it means Ginyu's lack of ki-control only enabled him to utilize about [b]1/4
https://i.imgur.com/L3bKnfX.jpgBut for what it's worth, Goku(who obviously IS a fighting prodigy that CAN control ki better than nearly anyone) couldn't control Ginyu's body either:
https://i.imgur.com/Y9O7uvt.jpgThat said, we know that Tagoma was also capable of controlling his ki and powering up like the Z Fighters can -- that's why Goten noted a huge spike in ki right after Tagoma powered up with a visible aura around himself:
*And given what Goten has sensed in the past, he wouldn't call something a "strong energy" if it wasn't really, REALLY powerful... This was also just before Gohan stated that Tagoma's power was on par with his own Boo-era Mystic self, btw.
In summary: if Ginyu couldn't control ki on Namek, then he most certainly would NOT be able to control it on earth. As mentioned, he'd spent the entire time since Namek in the guise of a FROG, ffs... So it's not like he's been fine-tuning the body-swap technique in the years since Namek, lol. IOW, he would have been just as inept at controlling bodies that powered up via ki-control on earth(ie. Tagoma), as he was on Namek(ie. Goku).
Tack that onto the fact that 'Ginoma' was easily one-shotted by a pathetic/weak ass Super Saiyan, and there is absolutely NO reason to believe that he was anywhere near as powerful as Tagoma himself was -- let alone 'more' powerful, lol. Piccolo's comment is completely bogus, imo. [/B]
http://i8.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/288/dragon-ball-69336.jpg
That's where I got it from
Also Ginyu has the ability to suppress his ki, so he can control ki just fine. Maybe not to the extent Goku can, and he's never be able to use Kaioken but he's not like the other Ginyu Force members who are strictly set at their 30-45k power levels
And who cares if he spent so long as a frog? His original body isn't the one he fought Goku with. He's had plenty of experience with body changes, going into new bodies that are much more powerful than his previous bodies. His inability to bring out Goku's power was a surprise to him because he has done it with every other body swap. His Daizenshuu entry states as much, and you take the databooks words more often than not.
So the power is stronger than Goten and Trunks, and that makes it Mystic Gohan level? It could be Fat Buu level, and be a strong power and still wreck them all as easily as he did. Goten didn't say that's the strongest energy I've ever felt besides my brother. And also all these characters statements you take fine, but Piccolo's you just disregard?
also Goten and Trunks can sense ki, and think ssj Gotenks is fine against that Tagoma, who is bare minimun 10x weaker than mystic Gohan.
But I digress, we will both continue to believe what we do.
Originally posted by KentoYeah, that is a non-canon scanlation, as I'm sure you now know. I posted the same canon VIZ page/dialogue above, but here it is again:
http://i8.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/288/dragon-ball-69336.jpgThat's where I got it from
👆
Originally posted by KentoEven IF Ginyu has body-swapped in the past, he had clearly never done so with a being who could control their ki to any significant extent... That's why he couldn't use Goku's full power(or even close to it.) That's logically why he couldn't use Tagoma's full power either.
And who cares if he spent so long as a frog? His original body isn't the one he fought Goku with. He's had plenty of experience with body changes, going into new bodies that are much more powerful than his previous bodies. His inability to bring out Goku's power was a surprise to him because he has done it with every other body swap. His Daizenshuu entry states as much, and you take the databooks words more often than not.
Originally posted by KentoDude, that scene was just meant to show you that Tagoma could control his ki/power up in the SAME manner as the Z Fighters... Which helps substantiate the notion that Ginyu(WHO DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO CONTROL KI AT ALL), couldn't have accessed his full power.... Just like he couldn't access Goku's for the SAME reason.
So the power is stronger than Goten and Trunks, and that makes it Mystic Gohan level? It could be Fat Buu level, and be a strong power and still wreck them all as easily as he did. Goten didn't say that's the strongest energy I've ever felt besides my brother. And also all these characters statements you take fine, but Piccolo's you just disregard?
Originally posted by KentoWould this be the same Gotenks who believed he could defeat Fat Boo in his BASE level? Or defeat Super Boo as SSJ1?
also Goten and Trunks can sense ki, and think ssj Gotenks is fine against that Tagoma, who is bare minimun 10x weaker than mystic Gohan.
C'mon, man... Gotenks not powering up to max right away is hardly an accurate means of gauging his opponent's power, lol. He's a cocky/dumbass kid.
