Exar Kun and Kyp Durron accolades.

So I found something I didn't even know existed, a hardcover Omnibus of Jedi Academy trilogy. It was still sealed. I only got it because I horde Star Wars books but I didn't expect a nice surprise within.

"Luke Skywalker, Master Jedi, is on a new mission. Not to defeat the forces of evil but to renew the good. He recruits old ally Kam Solusar, and Dathomir witch Kirana Ti. Eventually Luke discovers the old labourer Streen, the alien clone Dorsk and the Force prodigy Gantoris. But there is one he's unprepared for, somewhere between awe and terror, he meets Kyp Durron. A Jedi with greater potential than he's ever sensed." - Dark Apprentice

"Kyp Durron has absconded with the Suncrusher to terrorise the galaxy as Luke Skywalker lies between life and death. The manufacturer of this madness is no other than the spirit of fallen Jedi warlord Exar Kun. In a cruel twist of fate, Luke's attempt to revive the Jedi has only aided in engineering the return of the dead Sith order. Yet Kyp Durron has his master's measure and knows that should he return, neither he or his old master would be able to stop him. To prevent this he leaves the moons of Yavin behind, long beyond the reach of Kun's spells. So long as things remain the same, Kyp Durron controls the galaxy." - Champions of the Force

Great stuff to be honest.

Cool, a revived Kun can't be stopped by JA Luke.

Yeah, sure, like Kyp knows Luke's powers even as of his massively hindered state in DA, let alone what a focused Luke can do.

Him 'knowing' means he knows a fact, that's different from him thinking something from his POV.

There are two statements from JA itself stating he has gotten stronger with every mission though.

Nice 👆

Just reinforces what the intelligent already knew.

That's not how it works. He "knew", is simply used to assert that the character's conviction and belief in the assertion is very strong. An example would be a vastly pre-prime( from ROTS) Sidious "knowing" that he or Plagueis would be more powerful than the order's most powerful members. There are countless examples of such stuff, really.

3 actually(IIRC). Let me add the context: They are either at the start of JA JS, soon after his confrontation with Palpatine, or towards the end of JA CoTF, well after his ordeal as a spirit, where his emotional progression is clearly shown.

There are none in DA, which is where the main "Kyp and Kun" arc takes place, and where all the signs are there.

I mean, his emotional evolution as a spirit is clearly outlined. He is initially afraid of Kun, obviously, and then goes to being unsure but confrontational( defeating Kun in a spirit encounter), and then goes to being completely fearless.

So, those quotes only apply to Luke either at the start of JA, or at the end. That's like me being a champion racer, starting a tournament where races are held simultaneously one after the other. I may say at the start that I am better than I ever was. Well after the end, I may say again, that I am better than I ever was, but in the middle-end of the tournament, where I am battered, worn out, tired, I cannot say that I am better "in that condition" than I was at the start of the tournament, or at the end, where I am refreshed, and feel stronger than ever.

Obviously the analogy isn't perfect, but all that needs to be gleaned from it is the "middle condition". Except that in this case, it applies exclusively to Luke.

Eh. It says he knows, in an OOU summary. It'd be different if it was his POV narrative, then I'd agree. This is a summary from an OOU perspective stating that Kyp knows Kun can't be stopped by either himself or Luke.

Luke's like that in everything though through NR. He's never really performing at his best.until at least BFC. Furthermore, I'd make the argument that it's not exactly referring to a fvcked up Luke but a Luke prior to his confrontation at the climax of DA. It'd make no sense otherwise.

Exactly. I too was talking about character's opinion from outside perspective as well. Nobody buys( it is flat out wrong) that LOTS Vader is more powerful than KF Vader. Nobody buys( again, it is pretty evidently wrong) that 30/40 year old Sidious is more powerful/skilled than Yoda.

What makes no sense? This quote? Yeah, given that this is still from a character's perspective, be it from outside perspective.

The "Luke getting stronger" part? Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. There is a reason why Luke is so confident either at the start of JA, or at the very end of JA, and nowhere in the middle. Again, refer to the analogy. In a more amenable mindset and even playing fields, Luke has visibly gotten the better of Kun. His mindset makes a pretty monumental difference in his fights. His entire life is a testimony to that.

Yeah, Luke is like that till BFC. I never said anything contradictory to that. In fact, he is like that in his later stages as well. FOTJ makes a pretty good excuse for that, by having him weakened and injured regularly so as to even out the contests a little. That is why he goes from "destroying" Abeloth in a force contest( and IIRC, simultaneously dealing with Taalon and some Sith Sabers), to a position where he can only give 1/12 of her power out.

Both of those claims are in the narration of the books themselves which are still from the POVs of the characters in reference. Hence their fallibility. This is neither the narration of the character's perspective nor is it even in the book. It's a summary of the events of the Omnibus itself. That's the difference here.

Your appeal to fallibility would be correct when Corran Horn claims Kun's powers are greater than anything he's even imagined despite making that estimation during a conversation with Luke himself. Again, there's a difference. The former is a statement, the latter is a musing by a character from their perspective.

But here's the thing, this is a general estimate of the powers of the characters involved. It's not entertaining the context of any one scene in the book. Furthermore, Luke doesn't 'best' Kun. Kun leaves because Luke doesn't fall for Kun's attempts at intimidating him. In the only real confrontation they have, Luke goes all-out defensively attempting to find a way to defend himself with every technique he knows. But this has a ton of circumstances in and of itself and I don't like using it as it's been argued every which way without consensus.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
. Again, refer to the analogy. In a more amenable mindset and even playing fields, Luke has visibly gotten the better of Kun. His mindset makes a pretty monumental difference in his fights. His entire life is a testimony to that.

This isn't really a good comparison though. Reading throught the text myself.

Kun knew that attempting to fight each other in spirit form is folly. Because neither he or Luke can truly cause harm to the other. What his attempting to do is get Lukes students to finish off his comatosed body.

Kun didn't fight back either, the "cold spear of ice" Luke felt is just something that happens when people come into contact with Kun's spirit. As Luke did when he rugby takcled him.

It was always obvious that Kun>Luke>DE Sidious.

DE Luke < JA Luke << DE Sidious

Originally posted by AncientPower
Both of those claims are in the narration of the books themselves which are still from the POVs of the characters in reference. Hence their fallibility. This is neither the narration of the character's perspective nor is it even in the book. It's a summary of the events of the Omnibus itself. That's the difference here.

Your appeal to fallibility would be correct when Corran Horn claims Kun's powers are greater than anything he's even imagined despite making that estimation during a conversation with Luke himself. Again, there's a difference. The former is a statement, the latter is a musing by a character from their perspective.

But here's the thing, this is a general estimate of the powers of the characters involved. It's not entertaining the context of any one scene in the book.

This is just your opinion on how it should be, not what it is. Let me summarize:

Both Vader and Sidious's quotes, are from outside perspectives. Out of universe perspectives, to be more specific. That much is clear. So, when I hear you say that "because" it is in the main narrative of the books, that "outside perspective" isn't to be taken, when it is blatantly obvious that it is so, I find it pretty ludicrous.

I don't think so. There is absolutely no basis for discarding character opinions from outside perspective in the "content of the material" yet accepting an exactly proportionate quote when it is present on a hardcover, other than "your opinion". Essentially, you would then be questioning the source material "itself".

There is no difference between what is given on the hardcover, and what is clearly written in the novel. In fact, what is actually in the source material is by default, to be given more importance. If you are not making any claims on sources and their questionability in general, then there is nothing further to discuss.

Yes, and incidentally, your "excuse" for doing so, would be that it is a general estimate of the characters involved. Lol, what? It is nothing more than a "summary" of the events which took place. Novel-Full details on events which took place. Hardcover-A short summary of some specific events. There is nothing distinguishing the credence of this over anything given in the novels, except, again, your view on how it should be.

As far as "general estimate" goes, again, Kyp "knows" that he is more powerful than Luke( despite the contrary being repeatedly confirmed), Sidious "knows" that he is more powerful than Yoda, and LOTS Vader "knows" that he is more powerful than KF Vader( this is in fact as close to objective fact as it can get from LOTS), all according to outside perspective. None of them entertain any kind of context, vital context which proves them blatantly wrong. They are exactly similar to this quote, both general, both written in the exact same kind of perspective. Kyp's quote being on the hardcover, and the other quotes being in the main material, does nothing to change this "general estimate", nor that they can and are wrong.

For the spirit fight:

Luke rounded on him, still not knowing how to fight this intangible enemy. Exar Kun laughed, as if an idea had just occurred to him. "I came to you first in a dream disguised as your fallen father, Skywalker... perhaps I should appear to them in your own form. They will certainly follow the teachings of the Sith if the words come from your mouth."

"No!" Luke said. With his astral body he leaped to tackle the shimmering silhouette of the Sith lord. But though his sparkling body passed smoothly through the shadow, Exar Kun did seem to discorporate momentarily.

Luke felt a spear of ice plunge through his core as he touched Kun, but he stood firm while the Dark Lord reeled against the stone wall, seeping back into the cracks to escape.

"I've already been tempered by the dark side," Luke said. "I came out stronger. You are weak because you know only the evil teachings. Your understanding is no greater than that of my apprentices."

Credit:Champions of the Force
"

Kun "discorporates". Presumably that does him some kind of damage, because he would not seek to "escape" the situation at hand. Furthermore, Luke doesn't discorporate, and just has the "cold ice" feeling when he encounters Kun. Further more, Luke's attack leaves Kun reeling, something that certainly doesn't happen to Luke.

Obviously Luke has the upper hand, lol. Obviously he is superior to Kun, in this particular encounter. If Kun truly is invincible, he would simply continue to mock, not "discorporate" and "reel", and immediately escape the situation, as though meeting a foe stronger than him.

Either that, or its just Luke's force energy vs Kun's force energy( they are pure energy at this point), in which case, again, Luke comes off the better.

Originally posted by Unbowed
It was always obvious that Luke>DE Sidious>>>>>Kun.

Corrected(power).

The narratives of Plagueis and Lords of the Sith aren't out-of-universe at all, they are by definition the perspectives of the characters making the claim. Thus they are also liable to hold the subjective views of said characters. This isn't the same, as the source is a summary of events put inbetween the books of the Omnibus themselves aren't of any perspective subject to misinformation.

Except Kyp only knows this, as it's an explanation of his reason for leaving. (Also manages to fill the plothole of why Kun didn't have Kyp kill Luke physically after the soul rvpe) The event of Kun returning never happened and is thus a statement of the hypothetical occuring. Thus it isn't beholden to the context you're asserting. Base JA Luke can't stop a Revived Kun, is what it's saying.

You realise it is as simple as Luke tackling Kun, who probably didn't expect him to do anything of the sort. Then Kun falling back against the wall as a result of that action. Kun leaves because he fails to intimidate Luke, that was the entire scene.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You realise it is as simple as Luke tackling Kun, who probably didn't expect him to do anything of the sort. Then Kun falling back against the wall as a result of that action. Kun leaves because he fails to intimidate Luke, that was the entire scene.

You do realize that they aren't physical here? It is just a clash of their force energies.

Obviously it is not as simple as that( you saying), which is why I took effort to post the whole thing, and highlight specifically as to why it isn't.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The narratives of Plagueis and Lords of the Sith aren't out-of-universe at all, they are by definition the perspectives of the characters making the claim. Thus they are also liable to hold the subjective views of said characters. This isn't the same, as the source is a summary of events put inbetween the books of the Omnibus themselves aren't of any perspective subject to misinformation.

Except Kyp only knows this, as it's an explanation of his reason for leaving. (Also manages to fill the plothole of why Kun didn't have Kyp kill Luke physically after the soul rvpe) The event of Kun returning never happened and is thus a statement of the hypothetical occuring. Thus it isn't beholden to the context you're asserting. Base JA Luke can't stop a Revived Kun, is what it's saying.

Wrong. The quote from LOTS is as close to objective narration as it can get, meaning it is but one small step away from being objective fact. It is written 99% as to how we would state something like "Human babies are smaller than adults".

Again wrong. There is nothing preventing the aforementioned quote in the Omnibus from being just a perspective of Kyp, summarized in the passage. It could just as well be that Kyp's motivations for doing what he did are essential to the hence the Omnibus presented it as a character opinion, from an outside perspective.

Let's talk about the quote. It clearly says that Kyp had the measure of Kun. Really? Reminds me of a quote in ROTS which states that Anakin on Mustafar had the measure of Sidious and thought he could defeat him. Funny, he wasn't able to defeat Obi Wan. That right there, makes it nothing but a character's perspective, as the quote says that Kyp had the measure of Kun, hence why he did what he did, and because he had the measure of Kun, he thought that Kun was more powerful than him and Luke( who he hasn't seen at base level at all). Funnily enough, the quote is also wrong, because Kun was controlling Kyp throughout, even across the galaxy, ensuring that Kyp stayed firmly on the dark side. What's more, Kun clearly has influence across space. So, Kyp certainly isn't beyond Kun's spells, and you have to wonder, when Kun was corrupting and controlling Kyp throughout, can't his own opinion on how powerful Kun is be controlled by Kun himself? Certainly, I would bet on it.

You are saying that a quote like this:

"Kyp had the mesaure of his master and knew that if Kun returned, neither Luke nor he would be able to stop him"

Compared to this:

"His injuries had strengthened his body but they had perfected his spirit....Suffering had birthed insight, increasing his connection to the force."

Has more objective weight. That the latter is just from a character's perspective, and the former is an objective quote.

Are you kidding me?

You are obviously engaging in fancy wordplay here, but to keep things simple, no.

You're blatantly ignoring the massive difference in the sources of information themselves. One is an objective source and one is from the perspective of a character. If you can't simply admit to that basic crucial difference then there's no point even continuing this debate.