Explaining Knightfall Vader's Power

It seems many members of KMC remain speculative of Vader's power, perhaps it's mere hyperbole or embellishment, the words of a stunt coordinator. I'm here to prove that it's more than that:

Firstly, let's confirm that Anakin is more powerful than Yoda and Sidious as of Revenge of the Sith:

Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived.
- The Making of Revenge of the Sith

Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years.
- Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

Even as of Labyrinth of Evil, Anakin is as strong as anybody who'd ever sat on the Jedi Council:

Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself.
- Labyrinth of Evil

As of Revenge of the Sith Anakin has boundless powers:

Skywalker was seduced by the dark side of the Force. His boundless abilities fueled a sense of pride that hastened his fall.
– Star Wars Databanks: Darth Vader

After turning to the dark side, Darth Vader became much more powerful. The only character to tap into level 9, higher than Yoda:

"There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps.

"It's like the richter scale, the gap between each level is enormous."
- Nick Gillard

To further grasp the massive gap between levels, Obi-Wan Kenobi only went up one level between The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith:

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it's a huge jump from one level to another."
- Nick Gillard

This tier system was personally used by George Lucas:

Gillard also revealed a rating system used by Lucas and himself to define a Jedi’s relative skill, and how it reflects the difference between light and dark.
- Den of Geeks

For those still speculative of the Canonicity of these statements. A similar level system was employed by Lucas during the production of Empire Strikes Back:

The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.
- The Making of Empire Strikes Back

He's further confirmed to be unparallelled, the deadliest, as a Sith Lord prior to Mustafar:

Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.
– Star Wars Databanks: Darth Vader

Darth Vader will prove to be the most deadly character in the film.
- Pablo Hidalgo, Just The Facts - Episode III, theforce.net

Further confirmation that Vader's power was growing even still:

He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his “Master” already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis’s discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden … transformation.
- Revenge of the Sith

Darth Vader reached a level of power that was purely his own, and beyond anybody else in the galaxy. By the time he was in his prime, he was an entirely higher magnitude of power than Master Yoda, and thus Darth Sidious, was.

It is my belief that neither DE Sheev nor FOTJ Luke managed to achieve that power given that Vader was clearly tapping deeply into his incomparable potential, so much so that neither of his competition could possibly have replicated him in their individual primes.

Great thread. I totally agree. 👆

A problem with saying that Anakin already is on par with Yoda as early as his "maybe most powerful" quotes start popping up is that as of Sidious's sorcery vision on Yoda, a weaker vision of Sidious (who Yoda was handling easily) can ragdoll Anakin, which Yoda expected him to do.

But if Anakin was so powerful, his bad performance on Mustafar can't simply be explained away by "he was conflicted, go with it". Both Yoda and Sidious, who Anakin had already supposedly surpassed, would have made short work of Obi-Wan.

There's a contradiction there. Either Anakin was not that powerful, or the difference between "levels" is not that large, and any dog can have his day regardless of how strong he is. It can't be both.

And I honestly can't imagine Yoda or Sidious being matched by anyone else(except each other) in a direct Force push vs push struggle, the way Obi-Wan matched Anakin.

Originally posted by Unbowed
But if Anakin was so powerful, his bad performance on Mustafar can't simply be explained away by "he was conflicted, go with it". Both Yoda and Sidious, who Anakin had already supposedly surpassed, would have made short work of Obi-Wan.

There's a contradiction there. Either Anakin was not that powerful, or the difference between "levels" is not that large, and any dog can have his day regardless of how strong he is. It can't be both.

And I honestly can't imagine Yoda or Sidious being matched by anyone else(except each other) in a direct Force push vs push struggle, the way Obi-Wan matched Anakin.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/why-was-obi-wan-kenobi-able-to-contend-with-darth--1901550/

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A problem with saying that Anakin already is on par with Yoda as early as his "maybe most powerful" quotes start popping up is that as of Sidious's sorcery vision on Yoda, a weaker vision of Sidious (who Yoda was handling easily) can ragdoll Anakin, which Yoda expected him to do.

More importantly, that fight was strictly Canon-only, so Force barriers don't work the same way.

I'll copy what I said in the other thread:

Originally posted by Azronger
In the absence of a clear accolade hierarchy establishing who is superior, Palpatine or Vader, we must turn to feats. And there, as easily gleaned from the text, Anakin performs better against Dooku than Yoda did, even in his weakest, restrained base form.

Then Anakin gets permission to let loose, and he gains access to zone form, and destroys Dooku. Later on in the novel, it is described how Anakin feels more powerful than he ever has, meaning that after unlocking his furnace heart, his base form has surpassed his zone form, or more appropriately, he has made the zone his new base.

After his fall to the dark side, Anakin starts to rapidly amass more and more power in the Force. Although the extent of this amplification isn't clear, I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd speedblitz, or two/three-shot someone like Dooku at this point. He has gained so many power-ups since his restrained base form, which was already outperforming Yoda for Sheev's sake. This is Knightfall Vader at his most powerful in my opinion.

However, I don't think that's enough to beat the likes of peak Palpatine or Luke.

By feats, KF Vader is the MVP of his time, in terms of pure power at least. Mastery is another thing, which is why I still think he wouldn't beat RotS Palpatine, much less DE lol

@Ant ah ok, didn't know if you were putting TCW into Legends.

Well, whether I do or not, the Lost Missions were released after the Disney merger, I believe.

So they are definitely Canon-only.

Do we count the unfinished episodes in TCW? When Grievous stomps Kenobi?

Originally posted by Pessimystic
Do we count the unfinished episodes in TCW? When Grievous stomps Kenobi?

lol

So we're expected to believe that Kenobi had a big power boost from Season 6/7 of TCW to ROTS?

Grievous got brand-new upgrades since the last time they fought. That Grievous was the same incarnation as ROTS.

Obi-Wan adapted to the new style fairly afterwards though, based on his performance in ROTS.

If midi-chlorians are really the proof of your Force-strength, what can we say then about Nihilus or Exar Kun?

Nihilus didn't have any midi-chlorians into his robes and armor; yet he was op as f**k.

As about Anakin. It's safe to assume that he was stronger in his Sith, not Jedi personna.

Nihilus is an exception because he's a wound in the force.

Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. - The Making of Revenge of the Sith

This is not from Gillard's point of view; is from Lucas'. And first, you need to understand why Lucas considers Anakin the most powerful Jedi? Maybe due to his Chosen One status and his destiny to destroy the Sith?

Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years. - Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

This quote seems to compress only from Darth Bane's era until Anakin's era.

Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself. - Labyrinth of Evil

This quote doesn't tell that he is the strongest Jedi. In fact it flatly tells us that his Force strength is equal to the other Jedi from in the Jedi Council.

Skywalker was seduced by the dark side of the Force. His boundless abilities fueled a sense of pride that hastened his fall. – Star Wars Databanks: Darth Vader

What are these boundless abilties?

This line is too cryptic. From the context, I get that, he was seduced by the dark side and about the boundless Sith abilities he would come to learn; eventually hastening his fall.

"There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps.

George Lucas canon, remember.

What are with these numbers, anyways? It seems to me that this was Gillard's classification of these, and only these characters alone. And he does not refer to Force strength alone, but to overall characteristics of these characters(their Force strength, their training, etc)

And Gillard even stated that Anakin is not an eight or a nine, but Windu is an eight with Yoda. So Gillard clearly didn't talk about Force strength alone.

"It's like the richter scale, the gap between each level is enormous." - Nick Gillard

Yes, if you take into account their overall Jedi training. No wonder Anakin lost to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it's a huge jump from one level to another." - Nick Gillard

It takes into context only the movies(with no acknowledge of the EU content)

But, Obi-Wan did improve a lot since Episode 1 and Episode 2 to Episode 3. This is out of the question. He became better at swordsplay.

Gillard also revealed a rating system used by Lucas and himself to define a Jedi’s relative skill, and how it reflects the difference between light and dark. - Den of Geeks

So, there is nothing about Force strength, but rather about self-discipline, Force Mastery, and swordsplay.

The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two. - The Making of Empire Strikes Back

There are so many 'maybes' and a 'probably'.

This is too inconsistent. Who wrote this? It seems to me the person who wrote this wasn't sure what happened there in the making of the movie.

Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple. – Star Wars Databanks: Darth Vader

Oh, really?
I am looking at you Nihilus, Sidious, Vitiate/Valkorion. . .

This does not even acknowledge the existence of the EU.

Darth Vader will prove to be the most deadly character in the film. - Pablo Hidalgo, Just The Facts - Episode III, theforce.net

He was the deadliest, because he was the only Sith Lord who had the most screening in the movies.

He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his “Master” already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis’s discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden … transformation. - Revenge of the Sith

You describe this statement through Anakin's own narcissistic perception. The reason, he began to feel this, is because he was fallen to the dark side already; and he thought that the dark side will be making him stronger to save Padme from "certain death".

Originally posted by samappo
Nihilus is an exception because he's a wound in the force.

What about Valkorion/Vitiate, then?
What about Exar Kun?

Are really the midi-chlorians the proof that your Force strength is based on them? I mean Anakin had the highest count in the movies and yet he couldn't Force-push Obi-Wan and crack his neck; or when he needed Mortis' Force nexus to subdue both of the Force embodiments.

It's either overall lore inconsistency, or midi-chlorians really do not show your Force strength, and this is what Jedi's perception is. Or maybe the other op EU characters have a greater midi-chloriant count?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

The only redeeming part of your argument is:

You describe this statement through Anakin's own narcissistic perception. The reason, he began to feel this, is because he was fallen to the dark side already; and he thought that the dark side will be making him stronger to save Padme from "certain death".

Well, Lucas' and Luceno's.