High Meta Tourney Semi-Finals - DarkSaint vs Smurph

Rules:
No prep
Standard Equipment
BFR with no possibility of returning in a reasonable time is a loss
Opening + 2 posts
Posters are in full control of the characters

Battleground:
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/07/28/nyregion/00orthodox4/00orthodox4-superJumbo.jpg

Darksaint opening post:

Semi-Final OP
So. I will be honest - I misread the post from Phildo, and thought I had another week - more time to read up on Jean.

But no matter. It just means the juicy pot roast that is Smurph will have less time to cook.

I have therefore, drafted, as before, Invisible Woman. Many of my scans will be coming from the stupendous, amazingly one-sided unanimous beatdown of beatboks, but fear not, gentle judges, there will be new scans too!

Ding, the match starts.

I once more simultaneously attack and defend. Again, judges, unlike anyone else in the tourney, I alone can attack and defend with the same single thought. Emma certainly can’t - in fact, she is famous for only being able to do one bodyform at a time.

Here, Sue simultaneously forms a shield, blocks radiation, forms scalpels and other medical instruments, catches Coulson and slows his descent, holds veins shut, holds Kusar’s chest open, and turn bomb components invisible just so she can pinpoint the exact component to remove.

Whilst being shouted at and talked through open-heart surgery.

As angry Moloids are banging on the outside:

https://s5.postimg.org/6szcy4o2f/RCO015.jpg
https://s5.postimg.org/9ztwhqt2v/RCO016.jpg
https://s5.postimg.org/9ab45e093/RCO018.jpg
https://s5.postimg.org/py2m7xd13/RCO020.jpg

Overkill? Sure. But it highlights just how adept Sue is at multi-tasking, and her finesse (open heart surgery does not get any finer than that). I’m not Exodus, where using one power stops me from doing other things.

Btw, in case anyone wonders - Coulson jumped from a mile up when he was caught. What range!!

So judges, this should NOT be in question. As soon as the match starts, I can attack and defend. But what will I be doing?

Simples. I will simultaneously open a bubble in Emma’s brain and create a shield around myself, whilst throwing her far far away. For the BFR win. Three actions, all combined in one.

Three outcomes could happen when the match starts, judges. One: she outspeeds me, and attacks. Two: she outspeeds me, and defends. Three, I phuck her up. Because my attack and defense is the same outcome.

I think, we are all agreed on this. Even Smurph would agree.

So, option one. Is this possible? No doubt, judges, Smurph will in his OP show Emma doing this, or that. But at what speed?

Once more, I draw your attention to these scans:
https://s5.postimg.org/tjwuszq1z/842233-iwspeed1.jpg
https://s5.postimg.org/v39r1zrzr/3086923-speed2.jpg

Sue can throw shields up in the vacuum of space, after an explosion, in the space of fractions of a millisecond. These are cold hard numbers, unlike his scans of Emma and Firestar. I mean, I too have many scans showcasing her against bullets, against lasers, against explosions, against bombs, against physical attacks, energy attacks, whatever you want. Same as Smurph. But I ALSO have cold hard numbers here.

I have shown conclusively that Sue can multitask, and multitask extremely well. If I can do one thing, I can do five different things at once.

So no, he is NOT outspeeding me in an attack. If he says he can, well, please ask him to post cold, hard numbers.

And even then. Even then, I still have my shield up. Can he prove he can get around my shield, without resorting to PIS scans? Highly doubtful. And then, once past my shields - can he get past Malice? Whilst fending off my attack? Very highly doubtful. Remember, judges: if I can do ONE thing, then I can do MULTIPLE things. If you are convinced I can get a shield up - then that MUST mean my other constructs (the bubble and the...flinger?) are also present. You cannot have one without the other.

Two. Defense? He COULD go diamond form. But this is where my multitasking comes into play.

IF she becomes diamond, negating my brain bubble for the insta-kill - I simply BFR her, by creating a construct underneath her and flinging her away. If she DOESN’T become diamond - I simply fling her lifeless corpse far away.

Remember this scan Smurph posted of Emma’s speed, switching between diamond etc?
https://i.imgur.com/I5vD5k0.jpg

Here is the next scan:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11116/111160578/4209140-2772289049-18449.jpg

Whilst attacking Storm with TP (so Smurph’s single go-to attack) she was fried in the brain and BFRd. By attacks which originate from the mind. And she wasn’t shifting to diamond form, as you can plainly see. Swap Storm out for Sue, add in the fact that all the actions would be simultaneous, and, well….

Judges, this is short and sweet. Because we have all seen scans of Sue’s multitasking, her speed. I don’t need to post many scans - because my strategy is simple. I am not out-muscling her, or doing incredibly complicated tactics.

Speed kills.

Smurph opening post:

So this match was originally billed as Emma v Jean Grey, but Darksaint changed his draft to Invisible Woman (which is totally fine by me). I assume, because it’s Darksaint, that he did this cause he has a clever attack up his sleeve, so I’ll welcome whatever he’s cooked up. For my part, I tried to use a clever tactic in the last match and judges dinged me for it, so I gotta switch up my approach: straight-up mindblitz.
Emma should win this match because she actually has a history of psi-blasting Sue, and a record of extremely quick reactions. This fits Marvel’s long history of depicting telepaths as having exceptionally superhuman thinking speeds. In a quickdraw match, the evidence supports Emma winning.

Emma mindblasts Sue

Emma's telepathy, on-panel, completely bypasses Sue's shield. This should be game, set, match here.

For those following along from the previous match, Darksaint claimed that Emma was only able to pierce Sue’s shield (in the above feat) because Sue made an invisible wall, not a bubble, so the telepathy ‘went around’ the wall, rather than through it. This is bogus. It rests on a phony interpretation of the fourth panel, where Wolverine stands opposite the F4. On the F4 side of the panel, everything is shaded blue because a bubble is surrounding them. Just look at the difference is the colour of grass -- the force bubble clearly curves overtop of them. Additionally, you can actually see the 'wall' between the two sides curving around the F4... because it's a freaking bubble. The only reason to interpret this as a wall, not a bubble (and when has Sue resorted to a wall instead of a bubble?), is to grasp at straws to claim that Emma's telepathy didn't directly pierce the shield.

But it did, and this is why Darksaint loses the match.

To argue why she wins the quickdraw, I’ll show Emma using superhuman processing speed to instantly pull off much more difficult feats than this, because if she can rig up complex illusions in a second, a basic blast will be so much faster. I want to underline that in this match she’s using the most basic, rudimentary telepathic attack: fry the sh*t out of Sue’s brain. Exactly what she’s already done on panel, just with the dial up to 11.

Emma wins a quickdraw

As shown in the previous match, Emma has split-second reaction feats:
https://postimg.org/image/47eww7sp7/
https://postimg.org/image/snx2qolq3/

And she's actually out-reacted an attack from the Phoenix:

Beyond reaction feats though, it's clear that telepaths in Marvel are treated as having superhuman processing speed. Powerful mutant minds stop obeying the physics of brains, and start being able to do things like reassemble atomic structures in nanoseconds (Cable v Surfer), or process vast history in seconds (Nate v Dark Avengers). While Emma doesn't have feats of that scale under her belt, she does have feats like:

[list][*]instantly teaching Rachel Grey how to turn herself psychically invisible: http://i.imgur.com/mNRgGS8.jpg

[*]rigging up complex illusions in a single panel:
https://postimg.org/image/f8a211q17/
https://postimg.org/image/xb34s9tln/
https://postimg.org/image/amdxsowsb/
https://postimg.org/image/tepsw9dqz/

[*]and again:
https://imgur.com/a/P5YG5

[*]stopping a racing Quicksilver in his tracks:

[/list]

Remember, Emma isn't trying to rig up illusions or stop people mid-motion without hurting them. She's just going for the brain fry. Just like she does here against Storm, or here against Wolverine and Cap, or here against Nate Grey.

Judges, look at those extremely simple and quick sucker-punch attacks and ask yourself if she couldn't quickly and simply do the exact same thing to Sue (as she's done on panel, before). 👆

Emma wins.

Smurph, Post 2

Keep it simple…

As predicted, Darksaint is going for a complicated opening maneuver. This is a tough match for him -- he’s up against a top-tier telepath who has an on-panel feat of bypassing his shields, so he’s left trying to press advantages that he doesn’t have:

[list][*]Speed: Darksaint keeps claiming that Sue’s mind moves faster than her opponents, but his proof is weak. For my part, I can show more scans of Emma instantly transferring knowledge or mindblasting people, but I think the Quicksilver mind-freeze should be enough:

Emma can instantly and casually stop Quicksilver in the middle of a speedblitz. That’s a high-end feat for her, sure, but she’s not up against a speedster here, and her attack is even simpler: no finesse, just punching a hole through Sue’s mind.

[*]Multi-tasking: Darksaint has chosen to press this argument that Sue is an excellent multi-tasker because she can make multiple objects at once, which… fine, sure. I could respond by showing Emma mass controlling mobs of people, but it doesn’t matter, because my attack is simple while his has multiple steps.

What DS has not shown, however, is a feat of Sue accomplishing multiple constructs reflexively. All the evidence for Sue’s big ability to multi-task involves planning, significant concentration, and SHIELD agents talking her through the steps. Meanwhile, Sue’s one feat of reflexive bubble-making is just that: one bubble, to protect herself and her team.

Darksaint is hoping to combine two very different feats to create a new character here. He needs to do this because without a simultaneous attack and defense, Emma’s attack is simply superior (and faster). Judges should hold him to a higher standard of proof.

[*]What TP defense? Darksaint sort of alludes to having some special defense against telepathy:

And even then. Even then, I still have my shield up. Can he prove he can get around my shield, without resorting to PIS scans? Highly doubtful. And then, once past my shields - can he get past Malice? Whilst fending off my attack? Very highly doubtful.

1) Any scan of tp bypassing Sue’s shield is PIS? Me think DS doth protest too much… he knew my scan of Emma going right through his shield was coming, and he probably guessed that his ‘wall, not bubble’ argument wasn’t going to fly, so he takes the last refuge of KMC and shouts ‘PIS!’;

2) Malice will stop Emma! Um, what? A split personality is going to keep Emma Frost out? This is the same woman who bypassed the Void personality to communicate with Sentry, and who held her own in a Phoenix confrontation on skill alone. 😬 Emma is using a much simpler attack in this match, and she isn’t a scrub: Sue’s mind will fry, and Malice will fry along with her;

3) Sue will be attacking at the same time. Well, maybe: Sue is defending herself, catapulting (?) Emma, and going for a brain bubble. Emma is focused on one direct killshot. And I have a wealth of evidence that a mindfry simply > a brain bubble, which I'm about to get to...

The bottom line: if Darksaint had a single definitive anti-TP feat, he would have posted it. Sue’s shields have never been shown to shut out telepathy, despite DS’s previous ‘evidence’, which included Sue blocking TK from Jean, and getting hit with: a psi-blast from Psi-Lord, psychic feedback from Gladiator, and a reality-warping attack from Galactus. None of those things are telepathy, and the last two actually used psychic feedback to bust through the shield, so... no points in his favour. [/list]

Now, I mentioned addressing mindfry vs brain bubble:

Debunking the Brain Bubble

Darksaint's breaking out the big bad brain-bubble attack that gets brought up in every IW thread. My only question is: can we see a single scan of this attack?

I've never seen one, but I'm unaware of all of Sue's recent stuff. If there's a brain bubble feat, DS, bust it out.

It's important because I'm resorting to the most basic TP attack, which Emma has used against every tier of superhuman, and it seems like Darksaint is claiming that Sue will outspeed Emma with an attack that Sue has never, ever used?

DS will point out that Sue has used attacks where she puts bubbles inside people (or threatens to), and he'll say that's good enough. I'm going to preempt his response by pointing out that every one of those feats involves a bunch of hurdles for him to jump.

For this debunking, I'll refer to these four scans of Sue trying or threatening an internal bubble attack:

https://s5.postimg.org/st44ngg1j/840854-invisiblewoman6.jpg
https://s5.postimg.org/76p46jzif/fantasticinvisiblewoman5.jpg
https://postimg.org/image/b6sc7d059/
https://postimg.org/image/k334b5659/

3 Problems:

[list=1][*]She's always next to her target, or very close by.

Now, I'm not saying that Sue can't make forcefields at a distance, but she readily admits that she has no clue about internal anatomy: https://postimg.org/image/n9xnust65/

And Darksaint hasn't chosen the simplest organ to attack. He might do real damage from far away if he aims right, or he might not, because of his next problem...

[*]The bubbles don't actually cut through things

Is this common knowledge? Maybe it is and I'm just learning.

Anyways, notice how in the above scans that Sue keeps threatening to 1. create a bubble, and then 2. expand it?

It's because, the way Sue always uses her powers, she either can't or doesn't bisect things with her forcefields. It's a small detail, but it's important to understand that the bubble brain isn't actually a simple, instant attack; it requires Sue to aim, from half a kilometre away, to attack an organ that she's never attacked before, in such a way that she can either create and expand a bubble, or create and shrink one, in order to do major organ damage.

The attack actually requires significant skill and set-up, and she's never done this before, which just compounds with hurdle #3:

[*]It requires concentration

Look at IW vs Angrir:

As soon as she starts the internal bubble attack, her nose starts bleeding.

In the Namor and Wizard instances, Sue is only threatening to use an internal bubble. In the Wolverine one, it's a premeditated attack that she has time to set up.

This is all a big problem for DS, because he's taking the above scan, and proposing something way more complicated. Instead of lungs, Sue is attacking a more complicated organ that she's never bubbled. Instead of 5 feet away, she's 1,640 feet away (standard starting distance). And instead of slowly applying this attack during a monologue, Sue is simultaneously creating a personal shield AND catapulting Emma away.

Could Sue pull off this brain bubble? Maybe...

Could she do it in a matter of milliseconds, before Emma fries her brain? Not. A. Chance.
[/list]

The mindfry, on the other hand, is something that Emma has done repeatedly, and easily. It's an instant attack.

While Sue needs to simultaneously think:

1. Personal shield
2. Catapult attack
3. Tiny bubble, locate Emma, aim for the brain
4. Expand the bubble

Emma ONLY needs to think:

1. STOP!

Flinging Emma away?

Gonna quickly address DS's other attack...

In the above scan, Emma Frost, with ease, broadcasts Cyclops' thoughts to every mutant across the earth.

What, exactly, is throwing Emma a few streets away going to do? We know the fall won't hurt her, because she can just turn diamond form for the impact.

All that this will do is put Emma beyond Sue's range to effect. In his OP, Darksaint was boasting that Sue could make bubbles a mile away. Whoopee. Here Emma mindwipes somebody in Tokyo while she's chilling in NYC:

In conclusion...

One of Darksaint's attacks is useless, and the other is a ridiculously convoluted attack that we've never seen happen on panel. The most unbelievable aspect is that he's insisting that this can happen before Emma thinks 'Stop!'

By contrast, my attack is proven and super straightforward. I know telepathy is a cheap AF tourney power for this exact reason, but what can I say? I didn't draft Emma Frost, it was a random draw. srug

Post 2
Holy...yeah. I have no words to describe the sheer asinity of what I have to deal with here. I will,however,endure. Let’s go!

A complicated opening maneuver? I am merely creating three bubbles. Hardly GL constructs,lol. One around myself,one inside Emma (oo-er!) and one below her. I think we all can agree that I am capable of such. But don’t take my word for it,judges,read on!

Emma can instantly and casually stop Quicksilver in the middle of a speedblitz

Electro,who is attacking her from behind with lightning:
https://tinyurl.com/y7s2a2z4

Terrax the Tamer (AFTER his energy is fired,mind - as we don’t see her shield before he attacks):
https://tinyurl.com/ybas5c6v
https://tinyurl.com/yafphl96

I honestly didn’t think I’d have to repost these scans - but it seems I do. Obviously,Smurph thinks Emma attacking a distracted QS with a sneak attack is a feat. OK.

Why does he not show Storm vs Emma? Oh that’s right – because when someone focuses on Emma,she is found wanting:
https://tinyurl.com/yccvepkl

Once more,judges: I have cold,hard numbers. Fraction of a millisecond. Smurph read my OP,and knew what proof he had to bring. And did he,with his 2nd post?

No.

What DS has not shown,however,is a feat of Sue accomplishing multiple constructs reflexively

How about this one? Note the multiple bubbles all around her,containing the multiple explosions - no concentration (she’s still talking normally),no SHIELD agents,no planning (unless you want to argue she PLANNED the explosions? Lol):
https://tinyurl.com/y9non7kt

How about this one? I can make multiple fields,simultaneously,even with differing characteristics if needed. Make them,and change their characteristics,within split seconds. Again,this was back in the day:
https://tinyurl.com/y9rcvf9x

Happy now?

Hold us BOTH to high standards,lol,He has scans of Emma having to focus and attack a distracted QS,and holds that as a speed feat. Handwaves everything away as ‘well,in Marvel,psychics are superfast,look at Cable (not in this thread) and Nate (not in this thread)’. Uses Storm,and neglects to show Storm outreacting her.

Any scan of tp bypassing Sue’s shield is PIS?

Which,supposedly,Emma can do. When a multi-reality attack couldn’t. He tries to pull the wool over your eyes,and says it was a reality-warping attack,not TP - but neglects to mention it was psychic.

Cool beans.

Moreover,remember how he talks up my need for concentration?
https://tinyurl.com/yb3nzotr

No concentration needed.

But yes,let’s talk about that Emma/Sue scan. Why PIS? Wolverine is in attack mode. WAY past riled (per his own words). Yet,he’s stopped in his tracks.
‘Oh,but Emma has been known to get through! Look at this and that scan’!
True,dear reader. Except he isn’t in anger mode in those scans. His TP defences ALSO increase the angrier he is. Shall we see the other time Emma has tried to stop an angry Wolverine (I don’t count possession,as it’s inadmissible)?
https://imgur.com/a/KrmyO

Lol. But no,if we are to accept Smurph’s scan at face value,one would think Emma was this awesome psychic who could get through Sue’s shields,AND Wolverine’s defenses,and stop them. Casually.

Someone should tell Cyclops that.

Darksaint's breaking out the big bad brain-bubble attack that gets brought up in every IW thread. My only question is: can we see a single scan of this attack?

This is where the asinity reaches abstract levels.

she readily admits that she has no clue about internal anatomy

Laughable,that Smurph tries to use her lack of knowledge as an ‘argument’. AFTER I have shown her pinching veins shut. I don’t care about finesse here. The brain is a complex organ,sure. 100% agree with that. Which makes even a simple little clot,fatal. ANYTHING that happens to it,throws a massive spanner in the works and phucks it up. I mean,he even posts Sue attacking internals:
https://tinyurl.com/y7xyx3uu

Not just the lungs,btw. Eyes too. Why would I care about what Sue knows or doesn’t know about biology (even though she has demonstrated enough)? I thought WE were in control? Significant concentration? Why,yes. Because she was achieving things which requires EXTREMELY fine control. Pinching veins shut. Shutting out energy rads. HANDLING BOMBS. This is not the same here.

Anyways, notice how in the above scans that Sue keeps threatening to 1. create a bubble, and then 2. expand it?

Actually,let’s have a little thought experiment.

Can Superman tear Batman’s head off
I say due to Bruce’s neck muscles being so thick from working out,Superman can’t. If ANYBODY says otherwise,please,ask them to provide scans of Superman ripping heads off like he threatens to. HE’S NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE,ERGO HE CANNOT. The neck is more complex than an arm. Superman is unable to rip human necks 👆

Jesus. I didn’t draft a serial killer. I drafted the Milfy soccer mom,of the First Family in Marvel. Not some stone-cold killer. Of course I don’t have scans of her popping heads off lol.

Look at IW vs Angrir

In the Wolverine one,it's a premeditated attack that she has time to set up.

Premeditated? Scans? Wolverine didn’t even detect her Dior until it was too late. And this was with his full lung capacity.

Man,Smurph must really hate Wolvy. So much for his enhanced senses,if he can’t even detect her until it’s too late,and Sue has all this time to set attacks up and has to take all this time to focus and concentrate,whilst coming up close and standing next to him,wearing one of the most recognisable scents in the world.

~Smurph's attempt at steps~

Lol,why are you adding step 4? Who said it was a tiny bubble? I’m not threatening,like Sue does. She was able to create FFs in Wolvy’s lungs – large enough to double him over instantly. I can do the same – just now in your brain. The complexity of the brain is irrelevant,a red herring – if anything,it HELPS me. The more complex a system,the easier it is to phuck it up. I’m not doing surgery – I’m doing demolition works.

The flinging was only IF she went diamond. Which she didn’t do. So moot. HAD she done so,however,forum rules:

Combatants who leave the field of combat on purpose forfeit the match. If they are removed from the arena against their will (being punched,thrown,teleported,etc.) and can make it back under their own power in a reasonable amount of time,then they are still in the fight.

Again,moot from his POV,as he didn’t go diamond. From MY POV? It removes her stinking carcass from my sight.

Now,onto his conclusion.

One of Darksaint's attacks is useless

Ridiculously convoluted? I have shown her doing even MORE convoluted things. And even reacting to surprise items (like Coulson shouting at her to catch him). I,on the other hand,am creating THREE bubbles here. Judges,he’s trying to mislead you. Trying to make my strategy sound overcomplicated. When it’s not. It’s only three bubbles,lol.

The most unbelievable aspect is that he's insisting that this can happen before Emma thinks 'Stop!'

Final post
Conclusion
All in all, judges and readers, I have been a bit disappointed with Smurph’s posts.
[list=1]
[*]He uses a PIS scan
[*]Uses substandard ‘feats’ to claim he wins a quickdraw (with no numbers, and a reliance on a distracted QS)
[*]Tries to handwave everything as ‘telepaths are treated as having superhuman processing speed’, then uses Cable and Nate
[*]Attempts to over-complicate my OP - it’s NOT multiple steps. It’s a SINGLE simultaneous step
[*]Uses strange analogies, like mind-controlling multiple people being the same as my attack, or squishy Emma being the same as Angrir, Breaker of Souls
[*]Asks for scans of good guy Sue being a serial killer
[*]Uses a red herring argument, first by saying Sue has no knowledge of internal anatomy (despite her clear joke about Grey’s Anatomy), then using the brain’s complexity as an actual argument
[*]Forgets about the BFR rule, which is clearly stated at the top of this page
[/list]
Whereas I:
[list=1]
[*]Show a clear example of Emma in a quickdraw, unable to stop an angry Wolverine from hurting Cyclops (she even asks why she was unable to stop him. Yet, in HIS scan, she can easily stop him?) https://imgur.com/a/KrmyO
[*]Show Sue effortlessly creating more than the THREE bubbles I need for my OP, sometimes even with varying characteristics https://tinyurl.com/y9non7kt
[*]Show Sue being able to multi-task BEYOND what is needed here (as noted in my OP, when I termed it overkill), simultaneously https://s5.postimg.org/9ztwhqt2v/RCO016.jpg
[*]Show Sue’s reaction speeds, in battle. https://tinyurl.com/y8g6wxpg
Perhaps I too should handwave it all away as, well, in Marvel, Sue is given superhuman speeds. Tbf, this may be the case - because Sue only has her FFs to fall back on. Without them, she’d have died in issue #2, lol. This leads me to my next point -
[*]Have attached a clear number to my feat. As I said in my OP, we both have amazing speed feats. I clearly said in my OP, that Smurph should better my feat in his next post - giving him an ample chance to do so. He did not.https://s5.postimg.org/tjwuszq1z/842233-iwspeed1.jpg
[*]Show her clearly not needing to concentrate anywhere near like he suggests, when dealing with internal attacks (with Wolverine). Zero nosebleeds https://s5.postimg.org/st44ngg1j/840854-invisiblewoman6.jpg
[*]Show Emma, in a direct attack with Storm, who ALSO is ‘human’ level in speed, being able to fight back against a TP attack, and fry Emma not once, but twice, and THEN casually fling her away. Storm, whose attacks originate with her mental commands. Much like Sue. https://tinyurl.com/yccvepkl
[*]Have backup plans which are actually simultaneous - the beauty of drafting Sue - to BFR him. Moot, as in his OP he did not go diamond form. Which means he gets bubbled.
[/list]

Let me go through some points and expand on them. The overarching conclusion I have come to, is that Emma is great at sneak attacks when her opponent isn’t focussing on her - this is seen in Smurph’s noteworthy scans. When Wolverine isn’t aware of her, when QS isn’t attacking her, protecting someone else in battle like Cyclops, that kinda thing. Even with Storm, note how Storm was dazed, enabling her to attack her with TP. But the instance Storm was back in the game? In a battle exactly like this, when we are both aware of each other and looking to fight? Storm fries her mid-blast, twice. Wolverine ignores her. Judges, go back and look at his speed feats. Compare them to mine. Compare the sneak attack Clint did to Sue, to Clint vs Phoenix Amped Emma:
https://tinyurl.com/y9gntcrj

This is not a new argument - it’s the one I have said from the start. Emma does not have the speed feats to contend with Sue. Smurph does not have the speed feats.

Why? Simple.

If Emma’s defences fail in comics, she can always switch to diamond.

If Sue fails? She dies.

The scan of Emma/Sue, his only ‘argument’, is PIS precisely because Wolverine has been shown to be incredibly resistant to TPs. Some TPs even more powerful/skilled than Emma. I don’t have to detail them, any Wolverine respect thread has them. Yet, in his scan, he shows Emma effortlessly with a shout stopping everyone in their tracks? I have shown in another time, when she doesn’t have the benefit of a sneak attack...Wolverine simply brushes that dirt off his shoulder. Cyclops gets punched full in the face.

I have shown that there is at least SOME protection from TP, in my earlier tourney match with beatboks, and here, with, of all people, Galactus. M-body G? Sure - but the psychic attack (which he hoped judges wouldn’t see) was still powerful enough to ripple through multiple realities. And it did NOT insta-kill her. Yet, we are sold the idea that Emma can.

Don’t buy it.

IF sneak attacks on an unfocussed enemy was all it needed, well, judges, I have this:

A sneak attack like Emma loves to do, and did against Wolverine, Sue, and QS - that Smurph used as proof of Emma’s speed. Emma is KTFO, with a simple bubble.

But of course, I’m sure it’s inadmissible, due to it being a sneak attack. If so, then the Emma/Sue, and Emma/QS ‘feats’ are all...inadmissible. Smurph can’t have it both ways. He sneak attacks which ‘prove’ him fast enough to catch QS….I also sneak attack, which ‘proves’ me fast enough to KO Emma.
Full disclosure: that last scan was from the same storyline as the Emma/Sue scan. So also PIS, like his is 😉 Hold us BOTH to a higher burden of proof, judges!

And remember this crucial item, judges: I can do multiple bubbles simultaneously. I showed Sue vs Doom, being attacked by multiple lasers - and containing at least six, casually, whilst floating on a seventh construct, whilst boasting to Doom. Reflexively. Here is another scan, which isn’t a new argument (hence my use of it in this late stage; and even then, note she’s NOT killing them, merely KOing them. Because, surprise surprise, she is not a killer):

And I have also shown that Sue can throw bubbles up at speeds within the fraction of a millisecond. Has he bettered this? It is a point to note, judges, that in the Wolverine scans, she opens up TWO bubbles inside his lungs. Simultaneously, and instantly - one moment, he was fine and hacking, the next, he’s on his knees. Further proof of my multi-tasking, at speed, with lethal consequences.

I am NOT, NOT engaging in brain surgery. I’m not doing a light touch, slowly poking my way through, fearful of causing damage. No, I am creating a bubble in his head, and smashing everything inside into creamy pink jelly. How much knowledge does one need to do this?? It’s like saying Mike Tyson has no idea about brain surgery, therefore his punches won’t hurt me. Or that Hawkeye shoots at targets pretty well, but because brains are more complex than archery targets, he would fail at delivering headshots.

Laughable.

Whether Sue has done this or not in the past, is NOT proof that I cannot do it. She is not a serial killer, she threatens, but that’s it. Smarter people than Smurph/Emma have recognised this threat as a real and present danger, and have backed down. That alone should be proof that she is not bluffing. Otherwise, we are effectively arguing that Superman is physically unable to rip Batman’s head off - because we have no scans of him doing so, only scans of him saying he could.

Really didn’t think I had to go down that route of argument, but apparently in this match I was called upon to show Sue, First Mother of Marvel, killing people.
My OP is as it was at the start. [bThe match begins, I outspeed Emma with my superior speed, and form three bubbles - around me, inside Emma, and underneath her, flinging her away. All at the same time, simultaneously[/b]. Had she gone diamond, this would have won me the BFR victory, but since she hasn’t, I pop her brain whilst flinging her body away.

Based on the arguments presented here, and NOT pre-conceived notions of who would win, I think the conclusion that I, in control of Sue, wins is clear. He has ZERO defence, and his entire writeup is all based on being able to quickdraw me (without proof, unlike me) and being able to get through my shield (but….surely….if my shield is up….my bubble is in his brain, and he’s flying through the air??). I, on the other hand, have a backup plan, to BFR him. He has put all of his suicidal eggs into one Hail Mary basket.

Remember, judges. If there is a split second’s doubt that I can erect a bubble shield, then you MUST give me the two other bubbles as well. It’s not step A, then B, then C. It’s all Step A.

Overall, judges, Emma is powerful, as with most telepaths. She is skilled. Smurph too, is a reasoned and seasoned debater. But this is a fight with a cheap win, and I am king of those.

PS: Just wanted to add a note about Psi-Lord, as beatboks misled judges and Smurph alluded to it, and it sticks in my craw.
https://tinyurl.com/yd8ntw3r

The panel IMMEDIATELY preceding the beatboks scan, showed that Sue has NO shields. Which enabled Psi-Lord to read her thoughts, and realise she had none. Prior to this, when she had her shields, Psi-Lord did not use any TP.

Smurph Final Post

...

Time to wrap up this showdown.

My argument this match has been simple: Emma's quickest path to victory is faster, simpler, and infinitely more battletested than Sue's. All that Emma needs to do is think 'STOP!'

At that point, Sue's shields will fall. How do we know that?

A) Because they require concentration:

i) https://s5.postimg.org/af56au7bb/ending.jpg
ii) https://postimg.org/image/b6sc7d059/

and B), because this exact situation has happened before:

Can Susan do damage to Emma? Of course, if given the chance. What this match turns on, however, is whether she's likely to get that damage done before Emma thinks a single thought. Because in contrast to my single thought, Darksaint had Sue execute a multi-step, multi-pronged attack/defense plan. He's insisted that it's not complicated, but complicated is a relative term. Sue's actions might seem simple enough on paper, but she's effectively drawing a gun and loading it, while Emma already has a bullet aimed at her head from the moment the match starts. Even if Sue's gun is simple and fast, she's fighting an uphill battle.

Emma, meanwhile, is not short on speed feats. I want to emphasize that the speed that matters here is not physical reaction, but speed of thought, and it's clear that Emma thinks very quickly:

[list][*]Instantly downloads a skill into Rachel's brain

[*]Seemlessly interrupts Shaw's bullrush with a complex illusion:
https://postimg.org/image/f8a211q17/
https://postimg.org/image/xb34s9tln/
https://postimg.org/image/amdxsowsb/
https://postimg.org/image/tepsw9dqz/

[*]Instantly switches to diamond form:
https://postimg.org/image/47eww7sp7/
https://postimg.org/image/snx2qolq3/
[/list]
Emma's a high end comic book telepath, and so her attacks happen as soon as she thinks them. That was the point of the Quicksilver scan. Quicksilver casually speedblitzes precog telepaths, and Emma actually announces that she's about to freeze him in place, and then it happens, before he can finish blitzing Magneto.

And here, Emma's thoughts intercept an attack on Cyclops by the Phoenix. This is the speed at which she can attack Invisible Woman:

https://s14.postimg.org/p02g7tusx/emmaphoenix.jpg

I don't need to prove that Emma is factually faster than Invisible Woman. My only goal is to show that Emma's attack would happen faster than Sue's, and so it matters that Emma is using an attack that is her bread and butter, while Sue is doing something totally unprecedented. Even if you think that there's little difference which organ she attacks, and even if you think that she can pull this off without concentration (which would fly in the face of the scans above, but anyways), the biggest difference is that Sue's trying to reflexively accomplish an attack at 500 metres that she's only ever pulled off at 2 metres. All of the scans that DS has shown of Sue's range are big, simple constructs... usually bubble shields. If this attack adds just half a second to her processing time, the match is over; Emma has won.

Invisible Woman, not Malice

In my last post, I said that Darksaint hadn't posted any scans of Sue being able to create multiple constructs on reflex alone. He countered with both of these scans:

https://s5.postimg.org/z5tdrn62f/RCO009_1469054406.jpg
https://s5.postimg.org/qd2b9asqf/p14_17_copy.jpg

and while only the second scan actually shows what I asked for, it's totally, purposefully misleading because it's not actually Sue's reflexes:

---

so, as you can see, Dr Doom makes Sue realize that she's not alone in her own head. Malice is taking over. Malice is an evil spirit instilled by Psycho Man to try and create evil Sue.

I'm not concerned that this actually made Sue more powerful, but it's important for this discussion because we're debating what Sue can do reflexively. Can't rely on evidence that's not, you know, actually her doing it.

Sue has no defense to TP

Let's bust a myth. I've posted a scan of Emma's telepathy cutting through Sue's shield and Darksaint has no definitive response.

The only scan that he's raised in his defense is this one of Galactus attacking Sue physically and psychically, in which she literally says that she's being violated on every level of reality ermmnone

Anyways, I don't really know what to do with that. We're told that it's an impressive feat, I guess because she talks about being violated while she's "catapulted across dimensional barriers"... but for obvious reasons, the scan just seems incredibly unrelated to the match, or at the very least so steeped in context that it's not of value.

I will point out though, that Darksaint keeps glossing over the fact that Galactus accomplishes this supposedly psychic attack not just through Sue's shield, but actually by using the shield as a psychic feedback conduit, which seems... unhelpful to his case.

Is there any other evidence of Invisible Woman's tp defenses? Not that I've seen.

Here's an interesting question though: if Sue had defenses to telepathy, why didn't she use them when she was so desperate to rescue her son from Onslaught? Why wouldn't she brave the 'psychic maelstrom'?

Also, if she could shield people from telepathy, why wasn't she doing that when she and the Uncanny Avengers were hiding from Red Onslaught's telepathy? (Iron Man's tp defenses, for instance, had already been addressed in the comic and dealt with)

https://postimg.org/image/s0hypk6al/

And why would they assign Invisible Woman to stealth the team, and then assign a different character for mental shielding?

https://postimg.org/image/go5d7rpvx/

I know, none of this is particularly definitive, but it seems to me, put all together, that it looks like Marvel is not of the opinion that Invisible Woman's shields block telepathy mmm

Conclusion

There's a few lingering threads to tie up:

[list][*]Darksaint's used an example of Wolverine getting past Emma's mental command to stop. The obvious response is that Wolverine and Sue Storm are just not comparable. Wolverine has had Professor X install mental shielding, on top of natural shielding via his berserker nature and 'mental scarring' that's so powerful it tanked Psylocke's psi-knife. Invisible Woman, on the other hand, was left drooling by the Breakworld bullet's psychic booby trap:

https://postimg.org/image/wdgi7scel/
https://postimg.org/image/xfqoqcxst/
https://postimg.org/image/52v6zvwn1/
https://postimg.org/image/hhhz07vv1/
https://postimg.org/image/40l0ha8nx/

So I don't think what Wolverine can and can't do is relevant.

[*] I know Darksaint is pushing for a ridiculously narrow reading of the rules and battlefield that would have Emma lose the match once she left the street in the picture of the battleground. That's the loophole he's gunning for with this catapult attack. From my perspective, it seems like the neighbourhood or city are the most reasonable interpretations of what the 'battleground' is, especially because both of our characters can effect a bigger area than what's in the picture... but it's also such a small, non-point that I'm not bothering seeking a ruling over it. The match will end as soon as it starts regardless.

I suppose if Emma is thrown away, she could turn diamond and leap back to the limit of the battleground... again though, this is a non-issue.

[*]With the Malice stuff aside, we haven't actually seen Sue multitask extremely quickly, so I want to press the point that a debater can't take one feat of quick reflexes and one feet of concentrated complex power use, and put them together to make a machine who can do all that with a snap of their fingers.
[/list]

Thanks Phil for hosting, and judges for doing your thing, and for anybody else who manages to wade through this nerdery.

Good game, Darksaint.

Hopefully, I'm doing this at the right time.

This is actually an easy fight to judge. Both ladies are glass canons, powerful if they are aware of danger but squishy humans when caught off guard. Each one is capable of one shotting the other DEPENDING ON WHO GOES FIRST.

IMHO, I DO NOT believe Sue has any defense vs actual TP, Smurph's scan of Emma stunning Sue and crew while Sue had a shield up is damning and strengthens my opinion. But in reality, it makes no difference either way.

This fight is basically a quick draw. Both ladies have excellent showings dealing quickly with incoming danger and it would be unfair to say either has an advantage in that area.

IMHO, this fight is too even to call. Whoever goes first, and there are good examples for both contestants, wins.

LoB's verdict:

Darksaint Post 1- Darksaint argues that Sue will be able to launch an initial attack that effectively acts in 3 ways. First, a shield will be placed around her. Second, a force bubble will be placed in Emma's brain. Third, she will use a force bubble to remove Emma from the battlefield. Susan's demonstrated superior speed will allow her to pull off this triple effect attack before she succumbs to a psionic blast from Emma.

Smurph Post 1-Smurph references a confrontation between Emma and Sue where Emma clearly bypasses Sue's invisible shield and effects her mind directly. Smurph argues that Emma will be able to replicate the feat in this encounter. Smurph provides proof of Emma's superior speed and even more so demonstrated against a speedster in the form of Quicksilver. Smurph also references the versatility of Emma's attacks with casting illusions and mental probing.

Verdict- After the initial posts both characters have demonstrated comparable speed and versatility. The prevailing point is the direct confrontation between Sue and Emma in which Emma got the upper hand.

Advantage- Smurph

Darksaint Post 2Darksaint posts scans of Sue reacting in the midst of battle against various threats to demonstrate her combat speed. He negates Emma's feats against Quicksilver and Storm as being the byproduct of distractions and not comparable to what would happen in this one on one matchup against Sue. Darksaint directly addresses the issue of Sue's ability to resist telepathic assault with a scan involving Galactus attacking her simultaneously with physical and telepathic blasts. The issue of the complexity needed to execute Sue's attack is dismissed as Darksaint contends that it is a kill-shot in direct contrast to the scans showing measured displays of Sue's powers. The Battlefield removal part of the trifecta is reaffirmed as Emma has no way to return before the time limit is up.

Smurph Post 2- Smurph argues that the complexity of Daksaint's trifecta assault negates any advantage in speed Sue may have against Emma. Smurph contends that the singular nature of Emma's assault coupled with her past demonstration of its effectiveness against Sue would ultimately win out. Smurph brings up the lack of proof regarding Sue's ability to resist psionic attacks once they've gotten past her shields. He counters the presence of the alternate personality of Malice posing a problem with Emma's effectiveness against The Sentry with the presence of The Void. The factors of concentration and physical stress are also argued as working against Sue in the fight. Proximity is also cited as a limitation on Sue's attack as the scans provided all show her in close range of her opponents when using her abilities. This distance won't be replicated in the start of the match. Smurph contrasts the depiction of long-range attacks with Emma demonstrating global TP through Summers.

Verdict- Some of Smurph's arguments against Darksaint were countered directly in this set of posts. The issue of Sue's lack of psionic defense was negated by her performance against Galactus. The points of concentration and physical stress limiting Sue's performance were responded to with various examples of her displaying the ability to overcome these factors. Complexity being a barrier was noted with numerous examples of Sue pulling off the multifaceted feats that Darksaint initiated in the opening post. Smurph's argument about Emma's ability against multiple personalities wasn't supported with scans to directly counter Darksaint's Malice defense. The introduction of the proximity factor now plays a part as Smurph showed Emma's effectiveness at range in the absence of similar proof for Sue.

[b]Advantage-Darksaint

Darksaint FINAL Post-Darksaint summarizes all of his prior points about Sue's superior speed and its quantifiable nature. Her ability to effect multiple force bubbles simulataneously and the ease in which she can accomplish it. The revelation of another confrontation with Emma with Sue as the victor is the major point of this post.

Smurph FINAL Post- Smurph summarizes all of his prior points about Emma's superior speed as a telepath as well as her victory over Sue in a direct confrontation. Her vulnerability to psionic attack is also addressed once again. The additional point of Sue's depictions being enhanced because of the presence of Malice is now brought up and supported with scans. He counters Darksaint's points about the lack of Emma's quickdraw against Wolverine.

JUDGEMENT

Both Darksaint and Smurph presented their characters as having the edge in speed that would win in a quick draw battle. They supported this argument with scans very well. Despite this fact neither side proved that their character had the decisive edge necessary to win the match.

The next topic was the complexity of attack on Sue's part versus the argued straightforward assault from Emma. Darksaint provided enough proof that Sue had carried out this multifaceted attack numerous times in the past thus refuting Smurph's claims. This brings us right back to square one except for ONE very important fact.

Smurph's scan of Emma defeating Sue in direct combat.

This was the trump card in Smurph's favor UNTIL the final post from Darksaint which showed...

Sue defeating Emma in direct combat.

AGAIN, both combatants have proven themselves equally capable of defeating the other with no clear advantage. However, there is one point brought up by Smurph that wasn't addressed by Darksaint.

PROXIMITY!

Sue's portrayals all involved her being in much closer proximity to her opponents than she would be here against Emma. This was an interesting point and could've proven the edge in this razor thin match. If ONLY Smurph had provided proof of Sue failing to perform under the aforementioned conditions. In a match this close conjecture is simply not enough.

I declare the match a DRAW!

Kris' verdict [tie-breaker]:

Blech, what a boring matchup.

Both of the best big-boobed bubble-butt bitches on board and not a scan to acknowledge it.

How does one judge this match? Two characters with human reaction times who both have a wealth of solid reaction time feats to their name and the ability to drop their opponent in the opening moments of the match. Woe is me this should have been handled with two inhibitor-collars and a mud bath.

I'll save you the long writeup that I made you wait for, lmao.

My vote goes to Smurph but it is truly, absurdly close. He wins because I am not wholly convinced that Sue can pull off the bubble-pop as quickly as Emma can do a brain-fry. I was not convinced that she could do that move, that quickly at range. At least not as quickly as Emma could do what she has done a million times.

That's it. That should tell you how close this match was. The deciding factor is something that one would usually glance past in most matchups.

Good fight, good scans and quality participants.

----

Winner: Smurph