1/18/2018 - #6A (Ranking SIX, Round ONE) - Most Powerful Tournament - VOTE!

Originally posted by Haschwalth
The issue being is that, they should stick with unuthul otherwise they are conceding Mace>unuthul with no argument. which makes this whole tournament Flawed, and absolutely pointless.

It's not. That's like saying: Those who voted for Hillary are dishonest because prior to that they were Bernie Sanders supporters.

I have 'Thul > Windu, but if Windu beats 'Thul in the votes and is against Valkorion I am then left with the limited choice of either picking Valkorion or Mace. I picked Mace. Nothing dishonest about it, it just means I have both Unu and Mace above SW: TOR's sh!tty attempt at Palpatine.

Originally posted by MythLord
It's not. That's like saying: Those who voted for Hillary are dishonest because prior to that they were Bernie Sanders supporters.

I have 'Thul > Windu, but if Windu beats 'Thul in the votes and is against Valkorion I am then left with the limited choice of either picking Valkorion or Mace. I picked Mace. Nothing dishonest about it, it just means I have both Unu and Mace above SW: TOR's sh!tty attempt at Palpatine.

You mean TOR's sh!tty attempt at Palpatinihilus

Mace won. Let's move on already

^

^

Ant's initial excitement and effort put into this tourney has gradually dwindled down as Valk has been losing more and more rounds. Pretty funny to see.

Originally posted by Azronger
Mace won. Let's move on already

👆

Mysteries of the Jedi confirms Mace legit disarmed Sheev. The evidence for Windu keeps piling up. He does indeed defeat Valkorion.

So... why are we still stuck here?

Originally posted by Azronger
Mysteries of the Jedi confirms Mace legit disarmed Sheev. The evidence for Windu keeps piling up. He does indeed defeat Valkorion.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
So... why are we still stuck here?

Looking forward to the next part of the tourney. I feel it's time to put Tenebrous or UnuThul at #7.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm suggesting it's not as effective as you think at these higher levels when your opponents are highly competent anyway, as seen in the poor track record of associated combatants. With the element of surprise, I'm willing to accept that it could be a game-changer. Otherwise, I don't think so.

Also not sure it'll turn up in the majority of instances. When has teleportation even been used while under duress from a constant barrage of attacks, especially someone as fast and skilled as Mace? Jadus used it with his precognition allowing him to anticipate a pitiful blaster attack from a non-Force sensitive. Talzin and Satele used it when they were prepared for a saber attack. An'ya Kuro used it when her blade was locked with Vader's. Revan used it after building up his powers in safety against the strike team on the Foundry. Even Abeloth had to throw her enemies off with a Force Wave before teleporting.

If you're not willing to give the technique as much credit as I do then thats on you. I do believe however that I've proven that the technique can be used in the specific method that I've argued for, in combination with Valkorions other abilities.

Revan during both his fights in SoR uses it in the midst of combat:

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7.05

And the Dread Masters do as well:

YouTube video

6.55 for an example. After beaten individually they teleport into the center to recover for the final battle against all of them.

Satele also uses it if the Outlander to evade the attack, in the exact way that I'm suggesting Vakorion could use it:

YouTube video

1.00. The Outlander is certainly comparable to the capabilities of most of the opponents Mace has fought, and a far, far inferior force user than Valkorion is able to easily use teleportation to evade their attack.

I think you can understand why Valkorion should be capable of replicating the feats of characters he's far greater than in a technique that he also possesses.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Proof or at least reasoning as to why he changed powers mid-way for no reason? He had the same red glow the entire time. More likely that he was just using a combination of invisibility and Force Speed the entire time and the Consular was just surprised at first, not to mention presumably being tired after fighting their way through Corellia. Unless he decided to switch from teleportation to an inferior power... because the teleporting was tiring him? 😂

It's obvious? You can see him start to run froward when he turns invisible (and partially even afterwards) and then the Consular Force Waves him out of it. In the teleportation scenes he appears behind her standing perfectly still. Your suggestion is absurd. Why would he instantly run behind her, stand still, attack, run back to his start position and attack again just for effect? That's imbecilic. He could just stab her while running past her if he could do that At any rate Swtor doesn't use Force Speed at all in cutscenes.

And he could be mixing up his abilities so she doesn't get used to one power, anticipate and counter it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If he could surprise him, yeah. Otherwise, disagreed. Mace is comparable in power to Yoda and Sidious, both of whom I consider more powerful than Valkorion.

He can appear behind him and instantly blast him, it wouldn't be that difficult. And even if I agreed with that lunacy with regards to Maces power (which would fly in the face of his showings against every other opponent hes had), he can't take an attack from them undefended.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Dread Masters were many in number as well. And unless I'm mistaken, the non-Force sensitives managed to come out of Revan's fight just fine.

Not in their individual fights, as I posted above. And the fact that it was a large team coordinated by BM fighting Revan is exactly my point. They can support and protect each other. Mace is alone.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which can be easily explained by Talzin just being fast enough to react to Mace? You don't blitz people when they attack, you blitz them before you can attack. If Mace couldn't accomplish that, why would he blitz her when she attacked? Also, this is TCW, a medium where blitzing is far and few between (if it's even a thing). Non-Force sensitives contend with high-level Jedi and Sith all the time when they really shouldn't even be able to see them.

He was reacting to her. Your suggestion is that he can instantly close distances against opponents, which he failed to do there. Her attack wasn't even that fast. It had a clear telegraph and Talzin isn't even on Dathomir. Why would he fare better against Valkorion? Just because you want him to? Even afterwards he just watches as she slowly conjures a weapon in front of him. If he was as fast as you say he'd have lunged forward and cut her down in the middle of that. Mace couldn't even outrun the rhino in AotC. Nor could he instantly close the gap against Jango. And Swtor is similar to TCW in those regards. I'm willing to suggest that there'd be no blitzing from either if you want. 🙂

Originally posted by SunRazer
What, by stating the statistical fact that teleporters haven't managed to win their respective fights? I'm really not. My suggestion is that it's not necessarily a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Hence why I'm arguing for its use in combination with his other abilities, even though I don't think they're necessary. But yes you are. Instead of entertaining the practical capabilities of the technique you're trying to paint it as useless even though the actual visible uses of it have been successful.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I was referring to characters who had showed teleportation before/during fights no longer being able to do so at the end once they were injured or depleted e.g. An'ya Kuro, Jadus etc. But Revan and the Dread Masters fall into that category as well, as unless I'm much mistaken, all of them still ended up dying or being badly injured at some point where the teleportation couldn't save them.

Teleportation being able to be used by the injured or fatigued only has precedent in exceptional cases. On the Foundry, Revan gathered his powers for a considerable amount of time before teleporting; he obviously couldn't do it "instantaneously and effortlessly" like you suggest. Yavin IV is an immeasurably powerful DS nexus, as is Oricon in the case of the Dread Masters.

You are mistaken, yes. As I posted above.

Standard nexus defense. 🙄 Revan wasn't gathering power, he was giving a speech. He was maintaining a powerful barrier at the same time. If teleport took that much he wouldn't be able to do that. And a nexus has limits, you'd reach the same point of injury or fatigue regardless of a nexus.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I dispute the notion that it's far deeper than pretty much any other character currently contesting this round of the tournament.

Don't be coy. Its far greater than that of anyone who used the technique.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It took a noticeable enough toll for him to not be able to teleport out of that Force cage at the end, yeah. Personal incredulity doesn't stand up to that, I'm afraid.

Which could just be because the cage prevents him from teleporting out of it. Or its a plot hole. He shows no visible signs of exertion when people in far worse shape have used the technique. But you didn't rebut the idea that if it were a draining technique frivolous uses would be out of the question. So assume you agree with that point.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sure, but in general terms we assume flat ground, no?

This isn't a versus thread. Its about their overall capabilities as fighters.

Originally posted by SunRazer
At his best, Mace could recover instantly from Force attacks from Palpatine, somebody who is more powerful than Vitiate and has a better combat resume. Short of charging up a lightning storm, I don't see any of Vitiate's attacks being any more disruptive than the ones in the novel against Revan.

From a quick Force Push, which he didn't manage to block and only survived by force pushing himself away from the window. That would count as being stopped in your tracks, lol. Valkorion is far greater than he was in Revan, an attack even greater than the one he used against Arcann would prevent Mace's charge (and likely overwhelm him).

Originally posted by SunRazer
A weighted fight on a nexus, where the accumulation of distance was predicated on Revan starting off far away from a prepared Vitiate and having to run up to him in the first place. If the fight had started an average distance apart with Vitiate not being prepared for Revan's arrival, things could have gone very differently. Not comparable.

The nexus is irrelevant, Valkorion is far stronger than he was at that point. And comparable to what, lol?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Three battle-weary Jedi whom a prepared Vitiate (arguably still the beneficiary of a nexus here) attacks with Lightning as one or two of them move slowly towards him and the others stand still. Not comparable.

5 actually. And no, not arguably. I like how when its Talzin she just attacks too quickly but when its Vitiate they're just slow though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which one? What instance are you talking about? Obi-Wan basically moved fast enough to seemingly teleport to Dooku as well.

Dooku zaps Anakin in AotC and he blocks him with chairs and cutlery in Crisis on Naboo. Obviously Dooku also lands Force attacks on Anakin regardless of distance consistently though. And the RotS novelisation is so wildly contradictory to the film that its worthless. Obi-Wan loses 15 seconds into the fight and at no point is he moving too fast for Dooku.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sure, but I think Valkorion could kill most of the mythos with his Force powers already. For the ones that can make a fight of it against him (e.g. the current competitors), I think they all move fast enough to render close-quarters teleportation (as is often the case in combat) largely irrelevant. Only over a tremendous distance or in an environment that provides considerable shelter or nuisance to an opponent trying to traverse it would teleportation be particularly useful. So I think you're overvaluing it here. Either he can destroy his enemies, or they can compete with him, which pretty much means they're performing at such a high level that teleportation would only be useful in certain environments or to BFR oneself out of a fight (ie. losing).

I've already shown that Mace does not zip around as much as you think he does. He doesn't in any fight he's in, not even the Sidious fight where he's described as marching forwards. He fails to outrun the rhino in AotC, or blitz Jango or Talzin and gets surprised by Magnaguards. And the vast majority of situations would involve some method of potential hindrance. Fighting in a featureless void is the exception, not the norm. And finally you're still ignoring that Valkorion also possesses Force speed and it takes less time for him to attack than it does for Mace to run over to him. Which makes your whole point moot. Even if Mace can cross distances at the speed you're suggesting, which he's never done, Valkorion would still attack him well before he managed to do so and thus Mace would be unable to attack him directly with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by SunRazer
tl;dr Can't really call it lowballing when it's more or less the standard for Vitiate.

I noticed that despite your efforts to play eye-for-an-eye, you failed to answer my request to provide instances where Vitiate demonstrated the in-combat precision, timing or general ability of Palpatine in a way that makes the latter being able to exploit a distraction against Mace (ultimately to no effect) relevant here.

His "incompetencies" are largely just those of Drews as a writer. Simply because hes shitty at writing fight scenes doesn't mean Vitiate is a poor combatant. He annihilated the Strike Team made up of the strongest Jedi casually and he *****-slapped Arcann and Vaylin around. He's won every fight where he's not ridiculously weakened.

And I didn't fail in that, you just reply to everything piecemeal so much you probably forgot the rest of my post.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Read that fight in context.

Last thing that happened, Mace was deflecting a slash from Dooku as the shadows of the Magnaguards loomed behind him. Them grabbing him because he was unable to take preventative action due to defending against an equal in Dooku doesn't equate to Vitiate having complete freedom to move as he fried the helpless Revan, and still only reacting to T3 at the last instant. On a nexus. He'd have died if his speed wasn't enhanced by the ambient properties of Dromund Kaas.

I did read it in context, actually. Mace exclaims in surprise, so I don't really see what you're trying to point out. There's no difference between him focusing against Dooku and Vitiate focusing against Revan. Except that Vitiate actually did manage to react in time, of course. And just because he did it at the last instant doesn't mean he couldn't have done it sooner. He may have just have kept attacking Revan until the last moment.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's canon and derived from a script in TCW, where if your intention was to lowball, you could certainly do a lot worse than showing Mace not dominating Maul, one of the fastest and deadliest combatants in the mythos with a better resume of combat speed/competency than Vitiate.

Ok, someone is going to have to explain it to me because this is ridiculous. So I can't use "canon" comics if they have feats you don't like, but ILS is free to use comics with that version of Maul if it has a feat he likes, while claiming he's only using the Legends version and you can't use canon feats to lowball him.

Whats the actual policy here?

But whatever, Revan would annihilate Maul let alone Valkorion. Mauls speed is not nearly too much for him, just like neither is Maces. Or Revans, or Arcanns or anyone elses.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Mace was "highly distressed" during that incident.

2. The incident takes place before the events of Shatterpoint, after which Mace's use of Vaapad improves per the RotS novel.

3. That quote is from 2004 and referring to a fight written in 2003. It's retconned by the 2005 RotS novel having Mace use more of his skills than he did in that fight. Unless of course, going back to the second point, Mace's Vaapad just improved that much between the Ventress fight and RotS, in which case it's irrelevant to RotS Mace anyway.

1. Bullshit, he's highly distressed the RotS too and it just makes his Vaapad better.

2. Oh so feats shouldn't be held against a character if they dramatically improve afterwards, huh? That's interesting.

3. You have a bizarre way defining a retcon. That Mace is performing better against Sidious than he is against Ventress is obvious. It still establishes that Mace has low showings just like Valk does.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know Valkorion is more powerful, but I don't necessarily know that he's a much better combatant, no. Because there's no evidence he spent his years honing his actual combat abilities, and because I cited incompetencies from both the novel and in the vanilla game, a disparity of 300 years.

I would list the KotFE incident as another embarrassing showing, but apparently that was deliberate on Valkorion's part.

He's certainly more impressive, which is why you havn't shown anything from KotFE. He dealt with Arcann far more efficiently than he did Revan and his displays while possessing the Outlander are far greater than Mace can hope to survive. In general the wider-range display of abilities and combat techniques make him a superior combatant than Drews version.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Our last discussion failed to reach a conclusion because you didn't respond. Valkorion stopping time on himself has no precedent (in fact, neither does him teleporting). We've seen him fight and that's not his modus operandi; he just attacks with the Force. If he moves, it tends to be closer to his enemies. 😂

And if we assume he actually is stopping time, then Mace, somebody who is favourably compared to Yoda with respect to Force power, could reasonably be argued to break out ala Vaylin.

You didn't prove Valkorion could launch attacks out of stopped time either (you cited an independent agent in the Outlander attacking someone and time going back to normal when he did). At the end of the day, the idea of attacking in stopped time would essentially a be a free kill, a notion which doesn't make narrative sense and is contradicted by the fact that it's not an option whenever Valkorion freezes time against opponents such as Arcann, etc. You didn't reply to that last time. Why would you expect me to take that as a given?

The thread ended, so there didn't seem a point in continuing. And sure, he acts like that to opponents that he can demolish easily. But I thought that Mace was sooooo superior as a combatant than anything Valk has fought that he'd obviously try harder.

Valkorion was specifically appearing to and attacking Vaylin, its premature for you to claim she broke out. Not to mention Vaylins power and potential is similar to Valkorions. At any rate, Arcann couldn't do the same and he's more powerful than Mace is based on feats and more.

I did actually, you just ignored them for some reason. He attacks the Outlander and Vaylin and he's shown starting attacks in stopped time as well. Moan about it not making sense if you want but it happens. But even if he could only attack the instant time resumes it would still be too much for Mace to deal with, especially in conjunction with his teleportation and other abilities, which I see you didn't even attempt to contradict.

Also can you be more concise in the future please. You don't need to quote everything individually. If your plan is to write so much I simply won't bother to respond then its working. 2 posts is my absolute limit.

Sorry for the lateness though.

So we’re stuck here forever?

Is Neph trying to imply Mace didn't improve over the course of the war?

Originally posted by Vitiate
The nexus is irrelevant

end it already

You should've excluded Tenebrous, tbh. The featless sap.

He lacks feats, and Banite scaling doesn't put him above Vader.