Originally posted by NephthysYes, Maul does talk to Satine in the book through her cell. In addition, Maul and Savage walk past the cells of other prisoners looking at them. Not that it would help your argument one way or another if the door wasn't made of glass, since the door is both made of Mandalorian Iron and destroyed by Savage either way, as per the text.
It seems like the cells and the feat are both completely different in the book than they are in the cartoon. In the book he just rips it off its hinges. I'd be interested to know if theres any indication the cells are still transparent in the book, like if Maul can still have his face to face conversation with Sabine in it.Also it seems like an invalid comparison, since Kun smashes it with a lightsaber as opposed to Savage using the Force. Savage also doesn't do it "casually", he needs effort to do it and its thin glass as opposed to a thick wall.
I'm sure Kun used whatever means he thought most effective in trying to raid Nadd's tomb, which meant his physical power in this case. Also, I like the idea that the cell is made of regular glass but Savage needed effort to destroy it. Pick one.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66I already agreed that Kun's wall was tougher to break, although clarified some things about the strength of the prison cell.
If the iron is more durable than the glass, who is to say the glass is still even comparably powerful to what Kun faced. mmmI'm still not convinced it's beskar either, BTW. The glass breaks like glass. I imagine a transparent film would not do that. mmm
Seems to me like you're twisting something blatantly obvious for your own agenda. 😉
keep telling me why i suck though 👆
Why would the Mandalorians build a prison cell out of regular glass? That's absurd.
It sounds like you're a pedantic retard who is continually scrambling around and backtracking. 🙂
I doubt it's regular glass, but it's still likely a strong kind of glass and not beskar-in-disguise. Interviews with Filoni reveal Lucas' vision of Mandalore being entirely a glass city. Like always, Lucas prefers visuals to science. Why someone would want a city made of glass is beyond me, but that is what we have.
Originally posted by ILS
Yes, Maul does talk to Satine in the book through her cell. In addition, Maul and Savage walk past the cells of other prisoners looking at them. Not that it would help your argument one way or another if the door wasn't made of glass, since the door is both made of Mandalorian Iron and destroyed by Savage either way, as per the text.I'm sure Kun used whatever means he thought most effective in trying to raid Nadd's tomb, which meant his physical power in this case. Also, I like the idea that the cell is made of regular glass but Savage needed effort to destroy it. Pick one.
Do you have the excerpt? Like I said Savage just rips the door off its hinges in the book, its not particularly notable as a feat in that version.
That's not the point, the point is that you're trying to compare Kun's physical strength to Savages TK, which is silly and doesn't work. And I never said it was regular glass, I just don't think its provably beskar. You're right that it would be idiotic if someone could just punch their way out of a cell, so its certainly stronger than regular glass. Maybe transparisteel. The fact remains though that it is still only thin glass and he only does it in the canon version, which you're adamant we can't use in debates with Legends Maul. Unless that rule is only for things that make him look bad I suppose.
Stalemating Ulic prior to developing a far deadlier lightsaber style, and being over-all physically better. People like to forget that after Kun blasted through a wall of beskar, Freedon Nadd's spirit physically rebuilt him to be stronger, and infused him with the dark side. All prior to Kun's power literally multiplying.
If you want to compare canon - the reality of Star Wars - to the legends Exar Kun's entire character is based in, you are pitting rumours and myths against reality, and guess which one turns out better for Maul?So your claim is that canon should take more precedent over Legends, seeing as canon actually happened, and legends is often marred with hyperbole and embellishment.
This assumes that rumours are limited to being just exaggerations of events where powerful displays of the force are concerned. That is not true. For example, there are articles stating that the Lsunkya was buried with mechanical infrastructure overseen by engineers. Then there are texts claiming Palpatine did it himself, with his personal power. A realm in which wizards bend the laws of physics can inaugurate tons of supernatural possibilities. For instance, If the veracity of Sadows use of sith paraphernalia to cause supernova's is now "dubious" then perhaps he just triggered it with by waving his hands in a standard ship, after all the cosair was destroyed, it might have never had a force boosting function.
What this now means is that all of Kun's accomplishments are subject to a metaphorical scalpel, due to their dubious veracity, whereas I can draw upon any of Maul's canon feats and accolades and quite happily state that they are true.
I find it funny that you think this is an advantage for Maul of all people. I'd say the domain where Kun's abiitlies can be endlessly speculated upon, is better than the reality where Maul runs from groups of muggles, gets jumped by dogs and has the bright future of carrying on "the sith tradition" wrenched from him when he gets cut in half by an inexperienced padawan.
And if you want to discount the words of Dave Filoni and Sam Witwer, two authorities directly intertwined with Maul's revival in the new canon, then you can just kindly stop bringing up Gillard and his tiering system. Unless you want to commit and egregious double standard, that is.
You think there's a double standard. There isn't. To clarify, I will still discount the non-canon opinions of Witwer and Filoni. They are irrelevant to the events we see on screen, and are merely anecdotes that may or may not be true. Alluding to Gillard's tier system is just a way to categorise characters in a familiar manner for anyone reading. I do this not because they are facts, but because the methodology makes sense. For example Gillard - unlike Filoni - is much better at describing in universe phenomena, such as the dark side being like Force LSD - taking a user beyond their current level instantly, because we see this several times in the movies and in various instances outside of them. This applies to the tiers as well. Compare that to some of the gemstones Filoni has come up with, such as Maul getting three shotted by Ben representing his growth as a swordsman.
Not that Kun has ever done anything even closely resembling taking on the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy, how about instead of just taking one still image of a conflict that raged over an entire comic issue, we take a look at the full thing, yes?
Yes, by all means post the entire comic. That way everyone can see that being the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy, doesn't necessarily mean you have the strongest millitary. The two are, very clearly, mutually exclusive. Firstly, the image I posted that gives the broadest level of context possible regarding the "armies" Maul is facing.
Here we have around thirty unorganised idiots highly skilled killers running on, not claustrophobic, but somewhat confined cat-walks to confront Maul in the centre of the platform. They do this instead of waiting at outposts and shooting the target from strategic locations. Clever. Considering the setting, the first problem with this tactic is that the bodyguards can't surround him without being literally within a few meters radius of him - the size of the platform. And the shooters at the back have to contend with everybody directly in front of them. As we see later in the comic, this can be quite the issue :
So not only will anyone at a reasonable distance here have a difficult time getting a clear hit, worse than that, they risk shooting a comrade. On the other hand, only those that have a direct view of Maul are literally within meters of his blade.
And of course, the trained lightsaber wielding force sensitive cuts down the chaotically assembled muggles at close range. Now tell me why this would be a problem for any other trained jedi/sith with a name and a lightsaber? Furthermore, the idea that Maul flees against several long range shooters who maintain their distance from him, isn't contradicted, and of course the latter counts something that's true, while the former is just a possibility, as you rightly noted.
Maul wastes all of them, and continues to do so throughout the comic until he has killed all of Alexi Garyn's primary bodyguards, and then the man himself.
Yes... and he takes his sweet time doing it too by the looks of things. After he kills the body guards (7 more muggles who try and fight Maul at close range with unsuitable weapons) , he enters the room housing several unwitting crime lords, and of course, the man himself.
Who closes the gate and leaves before Maul can kill everyone to reach him.
Now you might ask what Exar Kun would do in this situation? For the answer, we have to go back to where a very pre-prime Ulic who, despite contending with several layers of atmospheric dark side power, blitzes these five (force empowered?) Naddist warriors - the two flashes represent the missing warriors - and he kills the fith cultist before gravity effects the third one's weapon.
After that he kills warb null in two hits, despite the aforementioned hinderances. Now If Ulic was confronting the Black Sun, everyone in the room dies before Alexi commands the gate to be closed, including that random night sister Maul struggled with.
Yes, he can use sorcery to stun muggles with an incredibly low resistance to these kinds of attacks, and Maul doesn't employ sorcery, therefore Kun is better at defeating muggles.
It's means that Kun is casually capable of using the alteration tree of powers on a much more massive scale than Maul is. Maul might not have sorcery, or stun, or lightning, or any other ability that you'd expect from "one of the most trained sith lords in history". But it doesn't matter, because his raw power has never manifested itself on such a magnitude, even in situations where it would have been useful. And if Kun is capable of casually incapacitating 100,000 targets at once, even if they have a low resistance to that sort of attack, it's reason to believe that his power directed at a single target would be particularly devastating. Do you remember the last time when Maul resisted having his force connection severed, only to get up and kill the person casting that power instantly? Add to the fact that the caster is someone who's survived through the conflicts of a thousand years and used the ability to defeat sith before him.
And Qui-Gon is one of the most skilled pure swordmasters the order has ever produced in 25,000 years.
The text says that Qui Gon was generally regarded to be one of the most skilled swordsman in Jedi History. It's not an omniscient narrator making this claim. So who's doing the regarding? And what's their metric for cross referencing martial artists throughout time? Being one of the "greatest" or "one of the most skilled" in a Galaxy-wide 20,000 year old organisation is far a too undefined accolade when literally thousands can be mentioned in that capacity. So what's the basis Qui Gon's praise here? My guess, is that it's his piers making this claim. And they're doing it on the assumption that being amongst the noteworthy of any single era puts you in the "one of the best of all time" category. Furthermore, the accolade itself is subject to the authority of the people claiming it - Modern era Jedi. These are usually people who have never been in a serious life or death duel against a trained adversary, and make their assessments with little experience. Now, let me tell you why that experience is necessary :
Apparently Jedi sparring sessions and blaster deflection practice doesn't give one the insight they need to build up a suitable duelling style. So while Jinn might be considered a masterful sword fighter to people in his time, he's proabably no better than your average Jedi master who's survived multiple conflicts in older times. In fact, there's a possibility he's even worse than that. He's just a guy who wasn't powerful enough to fully augment himself past old age and lacks key the key duelling components that make a complete fighter. If Vodo Bask was as incompetent as Jinn, he doesn't make it past the age of fifty.
Yet he's survived for more than 500 years, many of those years spent in times where violent conflict was a way of life. And not only does he augment himself to a super human degree, he also imbues a wooden stick with the power to contend with a lightsaber. A weapon that slashes through shielded star ships.
And Anoon Bondara who was well regarded in the Order as a master swordsman, some going as far as to say his skill being unequalled
And Anakin regarded Obi Wan being "as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as yoda." Just because Bondara's own apprentice thought of him in a similar manner, doesn't make it the case.
and yet he was humbled by Qui-Gon Jinn in sparring
Contradicting the notion that his skill was unequalled.
and he was absolutely obliterated by Darth Maul
Obliterated? Really? Like how Ulic obliterated Warb Null in two hits? Or how Ben Kenobi and Kanan obliterated Maul in three?
The Jedi was committed to stopping the Sith, or at the very least slowing him down enough to let the others get away, even if it meant giving his own life to do so.Maul bared his teeth. He would not lose his quarry again! He doubled his efforts, pressing the attack hard, hammering away at the Twi'lek's defenses. The Jedi gave ground, but Maul was still unable to slash through his guard.
- Shadow Hunter
Even at maximum effort he was finding it difficult to actually land a hit on Bondara.
you're going to need to elaborate on why anyone should care that it was someone "like Vodo" Kun was fighting.Your theory is based on what, exactly? And even if they are on tier 8, which I see no evidence for
The theory is based on the strong probability that's there's parity between eras. That the power levels of the respective leaders of the faction are interchangeable. Now I consider Yoda, Anakin and Mace Windu exceptions to this rule. Obi Wan and Jedi!Dooku, on the other hand? Nope. The kind of prodigious talent inate to them would have manifested across history hundreds, if not thousands of times. The mere fact that Dooku's potential occurred in the same era twice, once in himself and another time in Kenobi, almost garuntees it as a statistical likelihood. The fact that the sample size of Jedi in modern times has "dwindled" to a mere 10,000, strengthens the probability. So i look to the top dogs of any era to fill the void, and in this case Vodo Bask and Odan have also had hundreds of years to hone their connection to the force and train their skills. Odan in particular has had experience fighting sith in the Golden Age of them.
Proof Kun had to "maintain" the power? He cast a spell on them and they were stunned, it's said nowhere he needs to maintain it.
It's the most logical assumption when you take into consideration how all force powers work. The act of keeping someone completely petrified, yet still conscious- essentially force stun - has always been something that required maintained concentration. Jacen solo has unwittingly released petrified targets upon wavered concentration. When Malak stunned Revan, he could keep him there while taunting him, but the instant he engaged Bastilla in a duel, Revan was released. This paradigm seems to manifest itself in every use of the force. And yes, that includes spells :
It was the rumbling in her stomach that told her it was time to take a break. If she became distracted-too tired or too hungry-her spell might falter, exposing Zannah's true nature to those around her. It had happened once before, on the first day when she pushed herself too hard and worked long into the night. It had lasted only an instant, a momentary lapse, but that could have been enough to doom her.- Rule of Two
It's pretty much a general principal of the Force, and not something that literally has to be mentioned on every occurrence. Do the muntur stones remain airborne after Yoda stops levitating them? Inversely, does gravity stop acting on the stones, once they've dropped to the ground? Against Bane on Thython, why does Worrer's battle meditation were off the instant he's been force pushed. Why do Naga Shadows system spanning illusions fade as soon as his concentration is broken? I can honestly go on forever. If you can find me any examples to the contrary, feel free. Because they'd be mere exceptions to the rule. While you're at it prove to me why Exar's feat should be counted as an exception.
With all that in mind, the feat stands firm. Exar stuns around 100,000 targets, and romps his former master without even a minor lapse in the energy and concentration needed to maintain the stasis field over such a large audience.
Much like how Daegen Lok was able to drive Force sensitives mad, and experience extremely realistic illusions
Not an exception :
, despite leaving the battlefield entirely.
Again, not a contradiction, Force powers can and have been used across entire star systems. Leaving the battlefield is not certain evidence that the illusion is persisting without Lok's efforts. And as he stated before, he has to release her, meaning that he's consciously maintaining the mental prison affecting the target(s).
I see no reason to believe it wouldn't be both, given that even Darth Bane felt the energy of the dark side saturating Nadd's tomb millennia later, when it would have begun wearing off.
Then tell why on earth this dark side nexus would be helping Kun? Last i remembered, he was a Jedi, and one not who'd descended to darkness when he smashed the wall of Beskarr.
Kun with a nexus amp + Nadd's spirit actively empowering him
This is apparently wrong, the real equation includes Kun with a nexus hinderance + Plus Nadd's spirit. For all we know the two may just cancel each other out.
could well have been absorbed into his full power later on
Concession accepted.
but I find it important to note that he had a not inconsiderable amount of external power helping him during the feat.
And how are we judging what constitutes a considerable amount of power ? Freedon Nadd may well have been helping him, but it's revealed later that he has to except the dark side fully before some sort of dark transformation can occur. And that did not happen during or before Exar smashed the wall.
If you're going to use this as a benchmark for comparing their power, why not use a more standard benchmark; their ability to destroy lightsaber-resistant weapons. As we saw, both Vodo's staff and Mighella's sword are lightsaber-proof materials.
Because Vodo's staff and the virboblade used by Mighella are incomparable. One is the result of Vodo's own power and the other is just a lightsaber resistant metal that uses ultra sonic vibrations to increase it's cutting efficacy. The blade mighella uses is honestly much more comparable to the wall of beskarr Kun smashes down. The only difference it that Mighella's blade less than a centimeter thick.
when Kun destroyed it, it was likely when Vodo was near the end of his reserves after receiving a thrashing both times. Whereas Maul was able to snap Mighella's perpetually lightsaber-proof weapon under the weight of his strikes after a brief clash.
But it's not just the weight of Maul's own blows causing her wafer thin weapon to snap. You have to also consider that they're striking at each other. Force is being applied to the blade from both opponents, meaning you have to factor in the weight of her blows as well. It's simple physics. Two cars colliding with each other will create a much greater impact than one car hitting something stationary. Factor in how much thinner Mighella's weapon is compared to the Wall of mando iron, and that it certainly lasts a more panels before it get's destroyed, and we have yet another comparison where Kun smells of roses.
your argument seems to rest entirely on two feats which virtually nobody else has attempted and which are the only areas Kun could conceivably have an edge in, that is knocking down a Beskar wall and Force stunning non-Force sensitives
That's because when playing chess you don't move the pieces all at once. I started off the debate with a few direct comparisons where Exar performs in manner that would have been extremely useful to Maul, if he had the power or mastery to replicate. As far as something that can be empirically measured, Maul does not have a feat on the level of maintaining a stasis field over 100,000 targets while beating the top weapon master of an era brimming with them, and given his performance against Mighella's katana, he's probably not smashing thick walls of beskarr in a single panel either. You've failed utterly to present why those comparisons are invalid. And until you can properly refute them, they will be held over your head.
And again, by your own logic, legends are marred by embellishment and the like, so why not point out that such incredible feats as destroying a wall of Beskar are far from the truth?
Perhaps they are far from the truth, Perhaps Exar shot the wall with a cannon, or perhaps he smashed it down with his bare fists. The speculation can honestly go either way.
I'm not aware of any grandiose acrobatics on Vodo's part, and given that Jinn would easily outduel many people who engage in the over the top acrobatics, like Aayla Secura for example, your argument seems to fall short. Just because someone doesn't expend unnecessary energy using acrobatics, it doesn't mean that of the energy they do choose to expend they are "cheapened as a fighter."
The difference is that Jinn actually did employ those acrobatics once, and is literally stated to have tapered his fighting style because his of his own physical limitations, not because he found the use of acrobatics "unnecessary". This tells me that the line between his own physicality and his super human force augmentation is very thin.
Jinn was just as fast and stronger than his much younger apprentice, Obi-Wan.
Cool story bro.
Jinn has to conserve more energy because of his flagging stamina
Which should be compensated for considering his force connection, unless of course, his augmentative skills actually suck, because there's a fine line between his physicality and his force connection, as already theorised.
And let’s make it clear, not only was Maul thrashing Jinn on Tatooine, having him within one strike of death and totally exhausted within just 30 seconds, but when he was fighting the pair of Jedi, he did so comfortably, eclipsing both of their skill, leading them through the battlefield at his leisure, and was not even breathing hard by the end of it; so explain to me how this cheapens Maul as a fighter.
It cheapens him because one of his crowning battle feats is apparently beating a Jedi that struggles to augment himself past his late-middle aged physical status and uses a form not fit for serious duelling, while on a desert of all places.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I doubt it's regular glass, but it's still likely a strong kind of glass and not beskar-in-disguise. Interviews with Filoni reveal Lucas' vision of Mandalore being entirely a glass city. Like always, Lucas prefers visuals to science. Why someone would want a city made of glass is beyond me, but that is what we have.
Ant, this isn't hard to understand. The door is stated to be made of Mandalorian iron:
They lead Satine to a prison cell in her own palace, shutting her in a little room with a cot, desk, and chair, behind a door made of Mandalorian iron.
Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
A door is an object through which one enters or exits a room, or as per Wikipedia, "A door is a moving mechanism used to block off and allow access to, an entrance to or within an enclosed space, such as a building, room or vehicle." A door looks something like this:
To clarify, the brown rectangle is the door. The frames/supports surrounding the brown rectangle are not the door; they are not "a moving mechanism used to block off and allow access to" places. As I said, very simply. I hope you're keeping up.
Savage then breaks through the very-clearly-made-of-Mandalorian-iron-door with a telekinetic blast:
"Apprentice, I wish to tour this facility," he said.
A moment later, the door to their cell exploded outward, ripped away by a tremendous surge in the Force.
Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
Which is, by all available evidence, better than Kun's feat as the latter required a lightsaber for it.
Not sure why we're still disputing the composition of what Oppress shattered. ILS posted a quote explicitly outlining what Oppress destroyed. The next quote states that mandalorian iron can be made into glass and that Mandalorians turn this iron into glass.
The glass was made out of mandalorian iron. Feel free to dispute how impressive that is, but denying what is explicitly stated is a lazy way of trying to avoid the argument.
