Theres a lot of typical Quan going off the rails stuff in there. But scaling off Opress is a decent argument. Showing Maul Force pushing Kenobi is also a good inclusion. Plus that he admitted Dooku is better with TK but is arguing the disparity isnt large enough.
Where hes shot himself in the foot however is not including Canon EU stuff.
Originally posted by The EllimistYou are focusing on a cherry on a milkshake. You don't buy the milkshake for the cherry it's just something extra you get. I don't believe Maul wins because Dooku has granted mercy on his opponents I just find it interesting and satisfying to compare their behavioral differences as well as strengths and weaknesses relevant to their matchup. It is the cherry you get for the main argument which is the banana milkshake.
Quanchi has a lot of bad practices, one of which is to say things that have nothing to do with the actual debate (like whether Dooku shows mercy to someone or is a "true Sith" like wtf).
Originally posted by RockydonovangI countered with Sidious disarming Yoda on screen and winning the duel due to defending and retaining the higher ground.
Kurk pushin Yoda>Sids.Quanchi countering with this gem:
Top bins, quality argumentation.
This is my favorite though:
Bet:
https://youtu.be/_Vtj5YxDcCk?t=1m11s
https://youtu.be/_Vtj5YxDcCk?t=1m30s
As thor says
And with regards to Pre Vizsla you're focusing on the wrong aspect. Pre was disarmed but so was Kenobi. Pre Viszla is skillful enough with his own bounty hunter weaponry to be both a challenge to high end Jedi in Kenobi as well as Sith in Maul. Maul earned his victory and showed off his athleticism, stamina, and toughness in defeating Pre Vizsla who himself implied Maul deserved to rule. High praise from an honored and respected ruler of the Death Watch clan.
Originally posted by quanchi112hahaha I have enough honor to concede by outright saying it, not by hiding.
Why did you say this ? I figured you conceded so now my response will have to wait when you do finally respond.
As for being long overdue, I apologize; it's not like me to break my word.
I've been busy exposing fraudulent Youtubers, juggling college, etc, etc. I will make up for my excuses by delivering a wonderful platter of rhetoric for you to enjoy. I didn't want to slap together utter shit just to meet my self-imposed deadline; you deserve better 🙂 .
The Supreme Leader Snoke is wise, and surely can understand.
Part two:
Sorry for the delay; midterms are over and I can finally post a response.
I’m only going to respond to the points that are directly relevant to this fight as it relates to their combative abilities. Points about Dooku’s reserved character or Maul being the first apprentice of Sidious have no direct impact on the outcome of this fight unless you can specify why.
CLARIFICATION NEEDED:
- You frequently cite Maul’s double-bladed lightsaber as an advantage in this battle, but my understanding was that this is the iteration of Maul as of his last appearance in The Clone Wars. Because you agreed to these terms before we started, I’m going to ignore any points referring to equipment Maul doesn’t possess in TCW.
- You appear to mention George Lucas’s tier system (I think you mean Nick Gillard). This goes into a gray area of permittable sources for this debate as it’s not a direct statement from the creator Lucas. You only appear to mention it once as a supplemental source, so it’s not a big deal I guess. The judges will have the final say as to whether it should be accounted for or not.
I will make a holistic response to what I deduced your primary arguments to be. I will then present my main arguments. I will end my post by addressing your responses to the individual supporting details of my original holistic themes.
Response to Maul’s physical advantages:
You’ve made the claim that Maul’s youth grants him a physical advantage over Dooku when it comes to strength, endurance, stamina, and mobility.
You’ve also already recognized that Dooku is able to compensate for his age-related physical limitations by utilizing the force.
What you’re arguing is that Maul is close enough to Tyranus in force-power to where Dooku’s age-related physical limitations will become problematic for him in battle, because he needs to allocate more of his force-power to compensate for physical deficits that Maul would not have, hence lowering his force-dependent endurance and stamina levels when compared to those of Maul.
I will focus on force-power independently in another clause. My rebuttal here will focus solely on the factors which contribute to energy expenditure in a fight.
The problem with your argument that Dooku would tire before Maul is that it assumes that both combatants fight in the same way, which is not the case.
You yourself have noted the difference between Maul’s aggressive Juyo style when compared to Dooku and Obi-Wan’s more defensive forms. As you say yourself:
Dooku is more of a precise duelist with his minimal movements focusing on efficiency while conserving energy this is a stark contrast to Maul. Maul relies on his aggression, agility and athleticism.
Maul may be younger and more physically inclined than Dooku, but this physical disparity in itself does not necessarily mean that he will win simply by out-lasting the elder Sith. As see in The Phantom Menace, Maul relies heavily on acrobatics in battle, which is demanding in itself. Then on top of it you have the wild, aggressive, demanding move-sets of Maul’s light-saber technique. This is contrasted by Dooku, who generally speaking, remains planted on the ground, refraining from excessive, unnecessary movements. His lightsaber technique is precise and efficient; you never see him attacking in a wild frenzy like Maul. Because of this, it is reasonable to presume that any physical advantage Maul has over Tyranus is negated by their radically different fighting styles. Maul’s technique is incredibly demanding physically while Dooku’s only needs the bare-minimum of energy input to remain effective. Even if Maul has a greater reserve of physical energy, so to speak, it will be depleting at a far faster rate than Dooku’s for the reasons mentioned.
The other question we should be asking ourselves is, “how much of Maul’s energy spent on these demanding maneuvers will actually be met by Dooku?”.
You speak of Maul’s ability to quickly evade opponents in battle as though it is some sort of advantage over Dooku. Let’s let it be known that Dooku is just as, if not more capable, at quickly evading high-level opponents in battle, due to his more-than-adequate mobility.
Dooku anticipates multiple physical attacks from Kenobi and evades them:
(also manages to kick Kenobi faster than the latter can swing his light-saber to attack Dooku)
Dooku anticipates multiple attacks from Anakin and casually dodges his attacks:
(again evades multiple strikes from Kenobi; but also evades a strike from Anakin, forcing the latter to perform a desperate back-flip just to avoid Dooku’s counter-attack)
(evades a strike from Anakin despite still being mid-throw with Kenobi)
Finally, one of Dooku’s most notable feats of evasion is when he outright avoids a telekinetic attack by Skywalker and Kenobi. It’s reasonable to assume that being able to dodge a telekinetic push, something shown to occur nearly instantaneously, would require an inhuman level of speed and agility:
Keep in mind that the versions of Skywalker and Kenobi on Oba Diah are only a couple months away from their iterations in Revenge of the Sith. So we have Dooku managing to evade not only their physical attacks, but their telekinetic ones as well. What did Maul do again to compare to this? Dodge a few attacks from a Padawan learner Kenobi?
Any claims that Dooku is somehow less mobile than Maul have been proven otherwise.
While we’re still on the topic of physicals, let me acknowledge now the point you made about Dooku tiring in the RotS transcript.
As with the quote from Lucas, context is key here. It would be one thing if it stated that just Dooku was tiring, but instead it specifically states that both Obi-Wan and Dooku are tired; Anakin becomes is stronger as he becomes angry. If you’re using this to signify that Dooku is an old man who tires quickly, it doesn’t make much sense for both the man in his thirties and the one in his eighties to become tired together; especially when you consider that Dooku is facing two opponents while the jedi only have one. In other words, why would Kenobi be tiring along with Dooku? He’s just outside his physical prime, and unlike Dooku, he’s only fighting one opponent not two like Tyranus, so one would think he’s also expending less energy. Furthermore, the transcript makes it clear that this is still at the beginning of the fight and we see that Dooku still has plenty of steam as the fight continues.
There is something else happening here that Lucas is trying to get across. While Kenobi and Dooku naturally start with their energy levels at the highest towards the start of the battle, Anakin actually becomes more effective, hence “stronger”, as he gets angrier like the transcript says:
” COUNT DOOKU: (continuing) I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don’t use them.
Anakin regains his composure and attacks COUNT DOOKU as the Dark Lord continues his spin to meet him head on. Their fighting becomes even more intense.
Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness.”
Context, context, context.
The transcript is likely trying to create a contrast between the way energy naturally depletes with Dooku and Obi-Wan, two relatively stable fighters, and Anakin, who only becomes stronger as he becomes angrier.
I’d like to also take this time to point out a significant factor within the battle we saw in The Phantom Menance between Qui-Gon and Maul:
As of this time-period, Jinn is approximately 60 years old, far out of his physical prime. Despite this handicap, we see Jinn pushing the offense on Maul for a significant portion of their lengthy fight, never showing signs of fatigue. He’s not fighting conservatively like Dooku either; he’s described as fighting ferociously just like Anakin in RotS:
” QUI-GON is in a
split second fighting the DARK LORD with a ferocity not seen before. They
move into the area at the end of the corridor called the melting pit, a
small area that is mostly made up of a deep hole.
The electron ray gates begin to close. OBI-WAN tries to make it to the
melting pit but is caught one gate short. He slides to a stop just before
he hits the deadly electron field.
QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL battle around the melting pit as a frustrated
OBI-WAN watches.
DARTH MAUL cathces QUI-GON off guard. The SITH makes a quick move, bashes
his lightsaber handle into QUI-GON's chin, and runs him through. QUI-GON
slumps to the floor in a heap.”
Source: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Phantom-Menace.html
So Qui-Gon was fighting ferociously, far out of his physical prime, for a lengthy period of time, is a much weaker force-user than Dooku (meaning he can rely less on the force to aid his physicals/stamina), yet never succumbed to fatigue. The transcript states that Maul defeated Qui-Gon through a quick, stunning move, not by Jinn becoming tired.
So what makes you think that Dooku would tire against Maul?
Response to the force disparity between Maul and Dooku:
You go on to make the claim that Dooku and Maul are close enough in the force, or in your words, “on the same level”, as Dooku and Vader, which you then intertwine into your entire stamina/physical advantages argument. You use the following the quote as the so called “nail in the coffin”:
To put the nail in the coffin with one quote from the creator himself, George Lucas
"But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." The irony of the quote is this proves Maul is also on the level of Darth Vader which I've always argued as well over the years.
There are three sections of this paragraph that are key to understanding the context of this statement by Lucas:
1. “He wasn’t what he was supposed to become”
2. “From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor”
3. “which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe.”
Nothing in this quote by Lucas speaks to the power disparities between Maul, Dooku, and Vader. It only compares them collectively to the power of Emperor Sidious; meaning that all three of them are inferior. This is backed up by statements made in the Revenge of the Sith movie:
”You will not stop me; Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us”
- Sidious to Yoda
After Vader’s defeat on Mustafar, he lost the potential Sidious spoke of earlier. Vader was now just another one of Sheev’s apprentices; never destined to rival the master. Again, this has nothing to do with comparing the power differences between his three apprentices. They weren’t destined to become Sidious’s successors.
Compare this duel with Maul's previously shared TPM duel and it's quite clear Count Dooku doesn't have the stamina/physicality to weather a highly offensive opponent for long before he begins to fatigue.
I agree that Dooku won’t be weathering away at an opponent; he’ll be outmaneuvering and outdueling them via skill and speed, not brute strength. Tyranus’s fighting technique is based around evading and countering, not offensive principles.
Response to Maul’s aggressive combat style
I didn’t see any new arguments being made here that I haven’t already addressed up until now. We covered why it’s unlikely that Dooku will tire as well as why he’s more than capable of keeping up, if not out-performing, with Maul.
Another example of situational awareness in the midst of battle.
You can see all of these quotes in the clip below in even greater detail but I wanted to back up my claims he's an excellent and worthy apprentice to Sidious in every facet. Once Maul reins himself in he's quite calculating in a manner we had never seen before due to the limited time with the character in the Phantom Menace. Maul works in the shadows while meticulously planning the revenge of Kenobi as well as amassing power and resources he needs to execute his agenda.
I agree that Maul is a fine warrior who’s capable of working in the shadows, but again, this has no relevance to a battle between him and Dooku.
Response to Savage—Maul power-scaling
I will be arguing Savage > Maul in my main argument, so there will be significant overlap between my refutation of some of the points you make here and what I say later.
Savage is a juggernaut of a fighter, possessing inhumane strength and durability, I agree. There is just one reference you used that I have issue with: Savage disarming Dooku with a power-strike (or not so as we will discover).
First off, allow me to give DarthAnt66 full credit for the following analysis of the scene where Savage disarms Dooku:
The angle at which Savage strikes makes it extremely unlikely for it to be because of his lightsaber, especially considering the way Dooku flies as if he's just been Force pushed:1. https://i.imgur.com/kUuSCx7.png
2. https://i.imgur.com/IlDJfAn.png
3. https://i.imgur.com/trUVtkp.pngDooku seems to be gaining ground in the air, or at least maintaining it, despite the angle Opress striking it being directed quite downwards. It doesn't match up. The main indicator it being telekinesis, though, is the sound effect accompanying it, which is totally different to two lightsabers clashing, but rather is similar to one of the sound effects used for Force push:
a. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q&t=3m32s
b. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKr...Os&t=22m49s
c. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKr...Os&t=26m58s
d. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q&t=0m54sThe sound effect is overlapped with two lightsabers colliding, hence why it's hard to tell, since both happen simultaneously.
But, overall, it makes more sense than Savage doing something like this and never again showing such level of physical strength.
Compared to Savage utilizing telekinesis in conjecture with his Force attacks, which he consistently does throughout the fight.
So this just quickly clarifies what happened during that fight. Savage did not overwhelm Dooku with his physical strength; it was a force-based telekinetic attack similar to how he would throw around Ventress and Dooku here:
As well as throw around Anakin and Kenobi here:
When Savage is not using the force to amplify his attacks, Dooku has proven himself capable of easily dealing with Savage’s strength:
Trying to refute the above point with the idea that Savage was still a novice duelist at the time of his sparring session with Dooku is incorrect for the following reasons:
• Regardless of Savage’s skill with dueling, his physical strength is going to be present with his strikes regardless of technique.
• Prior to this training session Savage proved himself capable of skillfully wielding a halberd to kill jedi master Halsey and his padawan despite being at a disadvantage weapon-wise.
• Savage and his kin already possesses a familiarity with wielding melee weaponry as seen during his pre-transformation fights with Ventress on Dathomir.
• Savage sparring with Dooku and Savage fighting Dooku with Ventress happened within the time-span of two concurrent episodes, eliminating the idea that Savage could’ve improved significantly in saber prowess within the time between those events.
The idea that Dooku would have issue with Maul or Savage’s strength is plain silly.
Now let’s address this:
Count Dooku quote, "I can sense him, Grievous. That creature, Savage Opress, is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes." Grievous responds with, "You consider him a threat?" Dooku's response is very clear, "He is a threat to all of us, even the Jedi."--(Brothers) S4:E21.
The point of that quote is simple if Dooku believes Maul's weaker brother is a danger to not only himself and his allies but the Jedi as well then it's evident Maul is a greater threat to Dooku.
I completely agree with Dooku. He states shortly after, “With the Night-Sisters eradicated, there is no-one left to control him.” Savage is now a monster on the loose with no reservations towards slaughtering anyone who gets in his way. To make things worse, he grows stronger in the force with each passing moment.
I would hesitate to use this as an indication that Maul is Savage’s superior. As I will address in my main arguments later, Maul has never been proven to be Savage’s superior when it comes to force abilities. As an overall warrior Maul certainly is far more capable and refined, but is lacking when it comes to brute strength in the force.
Maul shows off his dominance over his brother Savage Opress in a quick and decisive fashion. Couple this with the previous gif, Dooku's own high praise of Opress and this paints the picture Maul is without a doubt an even bigger threat to Dooku than he acknowledged his inferior brother was.Darth Maul to Savage Opress, "So it is time for a lesson." Savage Opress then says after being defeated, "You have grown so powerful."
Not quite. Maul proved himself Savage’s superior with regards to saber skill and overall combat prowess; not with his force abilities. Maul exploited Savage’s sloppy technique, plain and simple. Dooku did the same thing earlier, as would Kenobi on Florum, and Sidious on Mandalore.
Savage telling his brother that he has “grown so powerful” could mean a variety of things. In the context of him just getting man-handled, the word ‘powerful’ is likely applied as follows (taken from Marriam-Webster Dictionary):
Continued from above
Powerful (adjective)
• : having the ability to control or influence people or things
• : having a strong effect on someone or something
• : having or producing a lot of physical strength or force
Prior to this encounter with Maul, Savage had only known his brother as the broken, helpless person he was on Lotho Minor. Even after Talzin repaired Maul, he was still unbalanced and hellbent on killing Kenobi at all costs. Kenobi himself acknowledged this:
“He is a broken, unbalanced monster”
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T56UHVAhydo&t=174s
Maul had to assist his brother in returning him to his former self. At this stage Maul was struggling to use the force for the most basic maneuvers:
When it’s all said and done, Savage was surely surprised when someone he thought was vulnerable managed to defeat him in a sparring session by exploiting his sloppy fighting style.
Using Maul and Savage’s brief skirmish as an indication of Maul being more powerful in the force is fallacious. Why would Savage be referring to Maul’s power in the force when all he did was demonstrate his superior martial prowess?
I will soon prove why Maul is not more powerful than his brother in the force.
Response to Maul’s notable displays of power
While I agree that Maul has taken advantage of openings provided by his opponents to implement force attacks in battle, he is lacking, especially when compared to Savage and Dooku, when it comes to ability to execute large-scale force power-attacks, and an overall ability to consistently utilize the force in a non-combat setting. As I will go into detail later, Maul is the superior tactician and warrior, but the inferior force-user.
Two of Maul’s greatest feats happened under desperate circumstances, so I question his ability to replicate them under ordinary conditions.
When considering Maul’s rag-dolling of Kenobi on Florum followed by him dragging the shuttle of the cliff, we have reason to believe that Maul was only able to perform these feats due to the direness of the situation combined with strong emotions amplifying his powers.
First we had Maul seeing his brother lose a limb at the hands of Kenobi. Maul briefly breaks off his fight with Kenobi to demonstrate concern for his brother, exclaiming his name, and then returns his attention to Kenobi to remove him from the setting via telekinesis.
Just as Maul became enraged with his master Sidious, allowing him to put up his best performance, after he killed Savage, I believe it’s reasonable to assume that Maul also experienced an emotional amplification on Florum in the form of anger after seeing Kenobi maim his younger brother. It would make sense as Maul had never demonstrated an ability to perform a telekinetic push of this magnitude before or after this incident.
I can imagine that Kenobi amputating Savage was reminiscent of how the jedi crippled Maul all those years ago on Naboo, giving him a strong surge of anger in that moment to ragdoll Kenobi.
And as Maul’s sith master said himself:
YouTube video
Maul’s anger-boost in this moment likely allowed him to do what he did to Kenobi, but never again after.
Next we have the shuttle feat. This is an impressive display, but again was dependent on the circumstances. Maul and Savage were literally running (or in Maul’s case hopping) for their lives. At this moment, there was a very high likelihood that they were going to be shot down if some sort of barrier wasn’t put in place between themselves and the pirates. What do you think was going through Maul’s mind? If I had to guess it would be something like, “I will pull down this shuttle or die trying”. Maul succeeded in his goal, but it should be noted that he only managed to drag the shuttle off the cliff and let gravity do the rest; it wasn’t a fluid lift and drop which again goes to support that this was a desperate move by Maul and not something he’s ordinarily capable of.
Moving on:
Kenobi previously clashed with Pre Vizsla a highly skilled Mandalorian bounty hunter and failed to disarm/defeat him. Pre Vizsla is skilled enough to tangle with top tier Jedi/Sith.
Oh goodness. Please don’t tell me you’re trying to use a defensive jedi’s showings against a non-force sensitive to suggest that Maul is Kenobi’s superior because he aggressively fought Vizsla in a display of power. Are you saying that this is a win for Vizsla then since Kenobi ultimately retreated despite Vizsla having to rely on his cronies to “finish” the jedi?
(and btw Kenobi disarmed Vizsla as you now already know)
Like I said at the beginning of my response, I’m not addressing your points about Dooku being merciful as it has nothing to do with their combat abilities.
Now onto the Sidious duel:
Darth Sidious' own words, "I am most impressed to see you have survived your injuries." Maul, " I used your training, Master. And I have built all this in hopes of returning to your side." Sidious, "How unfortunate that you are attempting to deceive me. You have become a rival."Rival--a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or for superiority in the same field of activity.
In this gif we see just how enraged and on point Maul is to penetrate Sidious' defenses to kick someone of a higher force tier than himself. As per Lucas the highest tier of his six films was the Darth Sidious, Yoda, Windu tier whereas Maul is on the level below it. This demonstrates how potent and focused Maul is despite the vast force advantages of Darth Sidious who surprises Maul and catches him completely off guard at the height of Maul's political power.
Here is where you’ve shot yourself in the foot. I thought we agreed to only use the films and TCW nothing else. Statements from the creators are fine, but Gilliard’s tier system is a gray area (unless you consider the included featurettes as a part of the film). If you want to use it that’s fine with me personally, but it’ll be used against you…hard.
You constantly reference Maul’s aggressive fighting style and compare it to Anakin’s performance against Dooku like it seals to deal for Maul. What Gilliard’s tiering also says is that Anakin is not on Maul’s tier as a duelist or force user—he is a tier 9 combatant—right up there with Sheev and Yoda. To quote him directly:
"Hayden in this film has gone up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi. The difference between an 8 and a 9 really is the dark side."
”Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting, it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally”.
”Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it.”
And before you start pointing out how Kenobi beat Anakin and that it’s inconsistent, he literally says that Anakin’s immature mentality is what gave Obi the win on Mustafar. Anakin is on Yoda/Sidious tier; that is why Dooku lost to him; not simply because he was an aggressive fighter.
You go on to conclude your main points with things you already said about Maul’s physicals, aggression, stamina, etc giving him the win over Dooku which I already addressed earlier.
I will quickly address Dooku’s Dun Moch backfiring against Anakin. True, it failed miserably for Dooku, but could he have really expected the outcome? Dooku saw Anakin as a jedi. Mocking him over his loose control of emotions should’ve unbalanced him as a jedi orients their life over controlling such things. In other words, Dooku’s intent was to call him an incompetent jedi. Anakin of course does not follow the traditional jedi teachings. He has a secret wife, has been shown to use the dark-side of the force in TCW, is easily upset, etc; so when Dooku addresses his emotional conflict, Anakin has no reservations with tossing aside the teachings of the jedi to destroy Dooku.
Dooku is not stupid. He would never attempt to employ the same taunts against Maul. He knows where the sith derive their power from. Didn’t he mentor Savage after all?:
“You must connect with your hatred….that’s it, your anger is your strength!”
We now transition to my main arguments.
The case for Savage > Maul
I wholeheartedly agree that between the two brothers Maul is the smarter, more refined, and skillful warrior. That being said, Savage has demonstrated himself to be the more powerful brother in regards to physical strength and raw aptitude with the force throughout the clone wars. This will go to show why Maul being Savage’s informal Sith master does not make him his peer in regards to their force abilities.
Let’s first remind ourselves what “raw force power” is. Here is the self-proposed definition of what it is (as was seen at the beginning of my first post):
Raw force power: This aspect of force ability is mainly seen in the most basic of applications, such as broad, sweeping telekinetic attacks (e.g force waves, unfocused pushes against multiple opponents, etc) and is measured via the magnitude of the attack; in other words how much damage/work was done in the shortest period of time due directly to the force user’s level of power. A user’s raw force power is seen in its purest form through basic attacks where we can deduce that the damage done is due solely to the strength of it and not mastery of a skill, like force-lightning, although exceptions can be made on a case-by-case basis. I personally believe that this category of force ability is the best indicator of a user’s midichlorian count or force potential due to it not requiring much background knowledge or skill but rather a strong working connection to the force (though this in-itself requires strong mental focus).
Raw force ability is significant to this battle as it will determine which opponent has the higher number of midichlorians, and hence the greatest force reserves which corresponds with endurance, that in turn predicts the amount of energy an opponent can afford to spend on various abilities (e.g augmentation, telekinetic attacks, acrobatics, etc) before suffering from force fatigue.
Your response to my definition:
This is something I've never contested.
So you’re in agreement with my definition. Great.
By the end of this section I hope to have made the following points clear to you:
• Savage is a blood-brother of Maul, and as such, we have reason to believe that he shared Maul’s original natural affinity for the dark-side of the force as Dathomirians do.
• Maul as of TCW has lost approximately half of his midichlorian count due to his injury from TPM, and as such, has also lost a significant amount of his raw force potential/power
• Savage has demonstrated more powerful force feats than Maul
• Maul has been dependent on Savage’s use of the force in non-combat situations, presumably because the latter has a stronger connection to the force (due to the midichlorian difference) and hence is less affected by force fatigue than Maul.
When Mother Talzin offered to provide Dooku with a new apprentice, her main selling point for the Count was that Savage shared the bloodline of Maul. In her own words:
Talzin: “You have heard of the Sith warrior Darth Maul, have you not?....A few still remain in his blood-line…what if I could provide another of his kind?
https://youtu.be/UojE1L5HbgE?t=2m1s
If Savage is in the same blood-line as Maul, would it not be far-fetched to believe that both share the same natural affinity for the force? In other words, wouldn’t they both have similar potential?
Unfortunately for Maul, most of his potential was lost after Kenobi sliced him on Naboo. With the loss of the bottom-half of his body came also the loss of nearly half of his living tissue, cells, and midichlorians.
As it was explored in The Phantom Menance, midichlorians are living organisms that are hosted by the body’s living tissue:
ANAKIN : Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are midi-chlorians?
QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all
living cells and communicates with the Force.
ANAKIN : They live inside of me?
QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.
ANAKIN : Symbionts?
QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the
midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the
Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.
ANAKIN : They do??
QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to
you.
The film makes it clear the higher one’s midi-chlorian count is, the stronger their connection with the force:
MACE WINDU : His cells contain a high concentration of midi-chlorians.
KI-ADI : The Force is strong with him.
QUI-GON : He's to be trained, then.
We know that Maul and Savage genetically related, we know that midi-chlorians are symbiotic creatures residing in living tissue that determine how strong a user’s connection with the force is; and we know that Maul lost half of his living tissue on Naboo. Qualitatively speaking, Maul as of TCW is the weaker brother when it comes to connection and raw power with the force.
If that isn’t convincing enough, let’s compare their best feats:
As Quanchi mentioned earlier, Maul’s best feats included dragging a shuttle off a cliff and ragdolling Obi-Wan. I already explained that Maul’s performance with both of those feats were attributed to the unique circumstances involved.
Let’s see what some of Savage’s most powerful feats were:
Amplified by rage, Savage telekinetically tosses around Dooku, Ventress, Anakin, and Kenobi:
Still amplified by rage, Savage creates a force repulse strong enough to floor several droids in addition to Anakin and Obi Wan:
Under normal conditions:
Savage blows apart a large, metal, entrance door using telekinesis:
Pushes a shuttle off a ledge:
Ragdolls Adi Gallia similarly to how Maul would to Kenobi later:
Uses force-repulse to throw off Anakin and Obi-Wan:
Again, these are only his most impressive raw-power feats. There are plenty of others demonstrating his ability to easily ragdoll various opponents.
The way I see it, all of Savage’s feats are just as, if not better, than anything Maul has demonstrated.
Finally, really driving the point that Maul is weaker than Savage in the force is that we see Maul depend on Savage in various non-combat situations.
After being imprisoned by Vizsla, with both brothers having only the force as their weapon, Maul depends on Savage to break them out of prison and lead the way out, dealing with any enemies standing in the way.
From the prison up until the throne room, it was Savage, not Maul, who cleared the way due to his superior connection with the force.
In a final display of dependence on his brother, Savage stops a knife from maiming Maul:
When it’s all said and done, this is what you should deduce:
- Maul and Savage are blood brothers and share their natural aptitudes as Mother Talzin states.
- Maul’s loss of his lower-section means that he has a significantly reduced midi-chlorian count which equates to having a weaker connection in the force than his TPM self and hence Savage.
- Savage has superior showings of raw force-abilities than Maul
- Maul has been shown to be dependent on Savage, not the other way around.
- Maul is the weaker force-user
So how does this all apply to a fight between Maul and Dooku? Simply said, Maul has a weaker connection to the force than Savage, who Dooku was capable of handling even when amplified by rage. This goes to show how great the level of disparity between Tyranus and Maul really is when it comes to their force abilities. As I will touch on in my next argument, Maul is nowhere close to the level of Anakin when it comes to power in the force. He won’t have the same augmented strength or speed that took down Dooku in RotS.
Case for Yoda = Anakin > Dooku > Maul
Alright I’ll try to make this one short.
We’re going to cover why Maul is not on the power level of Anakin and hence why he won’t be beating Dooku in this fight.
I already presented Gilliard’s statements about Anakin being a tier 9 combatant as of RotS.
“Obi-Wan is eight, Yoda is nine. Mace is 8 bordering on 9. Anakin is 9…The difference between 7 and 8 and 8 and 9 is enormous…the difference between 8 and 9, is a cheat. That’s when you go to the dark-side.
What’s stopping Dooku from doing this to Maul?
My response to your responses
This is the nitpicking section. Anything that I haven’t discussed in detail will be addressed here, albeit more hastily.
Versatility while admirable and being well rounded doesn't denote an advantage or a victory over someone in battle without sufficient evidence and critical reasoning to support this conclusion.
Suffice it to say I have a huge issue with your use of the word stalemate. To suggest fleeing from fair one on one combat is more an example of cowardice.
At the end of the fight Yoda was out of breath as he said “fought well you have”. As far as I’m concerned both combatants were putting in their full effort. Dooku had the opportunity to kill Yoda while he was distracted by the pillar falling on Anakin and Obi Wan, but he didn’t. He fleed. Dooku was carrying the plans of the Death Star, the planet was being invaded by Republic forces. Yoda himself states “if Dooku escapes, rally more systems to his cause, he will.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkwdAl7sroQ&t=48s
At this point Dooku was still a political idealist. Murdering a well-respected jedi master wouldn’t help his cause. Dooku’s mission was to start the Clone Wars and deliver the Death Star plants to Sidious safely. That’s it. Dooku is a cautious man; what’s the point of him risking everything just to stay longer in hopes of defeating Yoda?
Already countered via the Revenge of the Sith script with Count Dooku's tiring early on against Kenobi and Skywalker. Dooku tires very quickly and can't sustain this level of intensity against younger, aggressive, powerful and highly skilled peer.
As is the case with anything affecting one particular joint in a specific area of the human body it also affects the entire human body. They go hand in hand but someone with greater physicality logically has to use less force power to augment their capabilities in order to be effective. The greater muscle exertion one use in your body to sprint the faster you fatigue yourself. The same can be said of a force user so what can we take away that pertains to this matchup. The fact these two are on the same playing field of force power/user. Maul, Dooku, and Vader due to his injuries sustained against Kenobi never achieved the upper echelon of power Yoda and Sidious achieved. Dooku doesn't have the stamina to survive a prolonged battle against Maul.
I have a huge point of contention with your erroneous perspective on this matter. Maul has displayed environmental awareness against Qui Gon and Kenobi in TPM, also against Kenobi when he force pushed him to protect his injured brother, and once again shows environmental awareness when fleeing from Hondo's men firing on him by force pushing the ship to escape.
Yoda also states, "Much to learn you still have."
He is powerful but not powerful enough to defeat Maul due to Maul's favorable advantages.
Important thing to me is he can't evade or defeat them despite his immense power. He will be shot and he will go down. He accepts his fate as their captive.
Per Lucas Maul is on the same tier as Dooku.
Telekinetically throwing objects is nothing outside the norm for a force user of his power. What I deem noteworthy from this is despite all his attempts to hurt Yoda he was unable to break his defenses even once.
Ventress is his inferior apprentice so his superiority over her isn't surprising. That's what is standard issue for masters and apprentices especially from the dark side. Otherwise why would they follow someone weaker.
There have been instances of apprentices growing more powerful than their masters (e.g Sidious). Dooku disarming Ventress goes to show his power and ability to implement force attacks even with an opponent up in his face.
Lifting up the obelisks while impressive doesn't carry much weight in a battle with Maul due to the focus and time it took to achieve the feat. In that amount of time if he tries something of that nature he gets impaled and rather quickly.
The intent of showing this feat is to demonstrate Dooku’s strong connection with the force, far stronger than Maul’s, not his ability to lift obelisks amidst combat.
Dooku does have the power to ko unprepared opponents who blindly rush in without defending themselves. This doesn't apply to Maul who has a weapon to block the force lightning.
Dooku is in the same tier as Anakin so a back and forth is to be expected. Anakin wasn't defeated in this instance but this is another example of two opponents attacking and counter attacking each other with nothing detrimental taking place.
This remains to be seen. Conversely Savage Opress has shown the force power to break through Dooku's defenses and contend with him. Savage lacks Maul's technical skill and power so it's asinine to assume Maul can't compete on his level.
Almost doesn't cut it in Star Wars or in life. Almost won't get you to your destination. If you want to fail and come up just short of your goals almost is the word for you. Yoda wasn't disarmed nor did he have his defenses broke through in any way by Dooku.
Finishes is too strong a word here. Finishes implies this attacked defeated Kenobi which isn't the case. Dooku successfully countered his attack but this didn't impact or impact Kenobi in any significant manner.
Now this is an impressive display. Force chokes can be achieved by lesser force powered opponents as seen here. It's all about implementing said attack at the proper moment.
Savage Opress is very raw and inexperienced at this point. Dooku exploiting his weaknesses is to be expected.
Now this shows provided the right environment Dooku can use what's around him to keep a capable opponent slightly off balance. My only issue is Dooku was unable to best Anakin and fled from him. In this battle against Maul there's no where to run or hide. Just as all these hurled objects didn't critically hurt Anakin they wouldn't be anything more than a minor nuisance for Maul on his path towards his prey.
Dooku has also had his defenses not only exploited but it has resulted in his death from someone using a similar power strike assault without giving Dookunthe time to create the space he needs to out fence his opponent.
Maul was taken aback by the force push but it didn't hinder or defeat him. A temporary setback and nothing more. In this duel we see Kenobi later admit both he and Ventress needed to escape because they were outmatched.
I shared this earlier I believe but it's relevant here since a kick a peer isn't the game changer you seem to be suggesting. Maul didn't lose nor was he critically injured despite being kicked is a moot point. Anakin was kicked prior to this and while it knocked him back he was able to counterattack. The same can be said for Maul in these scenes
No one is claiming that a kick will end the fight. It shows that Dooku is not some helpless old man who can’t implement his own martial arts effectively against younger opponents.
Kenobi doesn't use the same dueling style or techniques of Maul so it's not relevant. Think of it this way Dooku had his way with Kenobi but Anakin brought down Dooku with authority in Rots. Later on in the very same film Kenobi defeats Anakin in a far longer duel so we can safely assume this is a matchup issue. The same can be said for Maul. How Kenobi matches up with Maul is entirely different than Dooku who employs different force powers, lightsaber, tempo, and precision.
I say thee nay. I've shown Savage Opress disarming Dooku from the clone wars series from this gif I'll repeat to refute the claim
**1:49 in Ventress force push disarms Dooku. We see her break down his defenses with just a few Nightsisters. Granted he's blind but to an experienced Jedi this shouldn't be anything other than a minor annoyance. Dooku even says he doesn't need eyes to see.An very inexperienced Luke Skywalker shows he doesn't need eyes to deflect these blasts. This is nothing to an experienced Jedi let alone.
Lol. Dooku was at a disadvantage in that fight. I’m not denying that Ventress pushed him (even though Dooku turned that against the trio by tricking them into his lightning), but Tyranus was literally ambushed in his sleep and forced to defend himself with no preparation, in his pajamas.
And RofL at you trying to compare what Dooku did, using the force to calculate the precise angles and speed of how his saber should meet his 3 foes’ blades, with Luke blocking blaster fire from a training droid. No difference there at all in terms of complexity.
Dooku’s senses were already distorted in addition to his vision. Mother Talzin says it here: https://youtu.be/7qmISiCAUl8?t=1m13s
It’s not a minor annoyance when your other senses are also distorted.
-One final example of Anakin himself using a force attack to break through his defenses.**10:43 Anakin force pushes thereby breaking Dooku's defenses knocking him onto his backside.
Dooku is an incredibly efficient and smooth operator in the midst of extreme duress. Dooku does exploit sloppier opponents without an extreme mastery over their skill of a lightsaber. Maul isn't sloppy nor is he without his own style of mastery of his weapon. Maul has the stamina to effectively pursue Dooku without giving him the space he needs to keep his opponent off balance.
I am going to have to ask you to quit being so dramatic claiming this kick nearly ended Kenobi's life. If this didn't much more durable and mechanical opponent didn't seriously injure Kenobi with this punch and crash the kick looks like a flick to the head by comparison.
This is impressive against these two but we have seen Savage Opress and Ventress both catch these two off guard with force attacks despite being more powerful and skilled. It happens but he wasn't close to defeating either of them here.
He does prove to be elusive and tries to keep them off balance while always creating space so he is able to dictate the tempo of the duel. He was successful in this attempt but Maul is even more aggressive than Anakin who ultimately kills Dooku later in the same duel once Dooku is no longer able to separate himself from Anakin's close quarter strikes.
We don't see any confirmation from Filoni that Sidious held back in any fashion. It's safe to assume after disarming his opponent he didn't have to kill him since he is on another level altogether when it comes to pure force power.
Yoda also had to stop fighting Dooku and save his friends who Dooku attacked. This served as an opportunity to board his ship to escape. We can tell earlier when it came to force powers Yoda casually dismissed his force lightning but this wasn't the case with Sidious. Dooku didn't break through Yoda's defenses at any point unlike Maul with the kick. Dooku's escape also leads me to believe he wasn't confident about beating Yoda otherwise why not stay and finish the duel.
YODA
(continuing)
The end for you, Count, this is.
COUNT DOOKU
...Not yet...
COUNT DOOKU raises his arms and knocks YODA off his shoulders and then, with all his might, he uses the Force to pull on one of the cranes in the hanger.”
AotC transcript: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Attack-of-the-Clones.html
Yoda fails to kill Dooku; Maul fails to kill his master who was only trying to capture him.
We also know Yoda > Sidious which makes it that much more impressive for Dooku.
Yoda is a tiny target when compared to Sidious. You’re really going to say Dooku not kicking him means his performance was less impressive? 😂
Sidious didn't initially try to run only after Yoda defended himself and his arrogance dissipated with the revelation Yoda is powerful enough to contend with Sidious.
Yoda was also temp ko'd by Sidious whereas Dooku landed no attacks. Sidious also gains the high ground and disarms Yoda on screen something Dooku was unable to accomplish.
That was clearly a surprise attack against Yoda. Dooku didn’t open up against Yoda with lightning first. Sidious does indeed gain the high-ground, but guess what he doesn’t manage to do that Yoda does…Yoda actually manages to stop one of his thrown senate pods and redirect it at him. Instead of trying to stop it with his own powers, Sheev would rather give up the high-ground than try to stop the strength of Yoda behind the thrown pod.
Get a load of this:
YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.
The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.
YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.
- Taken from RotS Transcript
So no. Sidious clearly was inferior to Yoda. That’s why he tried running away. There are cues in the movie which are confirmed by the transcript itself.
So what’s more impressive Quan?
Maul on a rage amp ultimately losing to a guy who was on the defensive the entire time, with intentions to capture; the same person who later would nearly lose to Yoda
OR
Dooku effectively running a gauntlet against Anakin, Kenobi, and Yoda without breaks, successfully defending himself from the little green jedi who was prepared to kill him; who would later overwhelm Sidious after the latter first tries to flee.
You tell me, bud.
JESUS. F*CKING. CHRIST
That was a lot more redundant than it needed to be, Quan. Honestly your best bet at this point is probably to spam the shit out of your arguments, be repetitive in your responses, ignore the reason why I’m presenting evidence and instead interpret everything as an attack. You will frustrate me to an oblivion and win that way.
Sorry if I couldn't catch every single grammatical error. I'm just glad I managed to find the energy to put this out. Quan can be quite repetitive and frustrating.
Also I'm aware of the optical migraine that is my formatting. Still trying to get the spacing transfer down between Word and html.
I propose we start choosing judges @Quanchi. How do you want to do this? I propose that we each present a list of 5 people and choose 2 from the other's list for a total of 4 judges. We can try a total of 6 if you want, but I don't think there are enough people who care.
I expect at least one more response from you; a final response from me, and an optional closing statement for either of us.
I'll give you until the end of the month to respond since I was delayed in my own.
