SSJ Goku on Namek vs. Hal Jordan

Super Vegeta's Final Flash was able to completely atomize Perfect Cell, and it never detonated. Meaning that before detonation, it equated to a power capable of utterly dwarfing planet busting force. That same Final Flash was batted away by SSJ2 Goku in the Buu saga, iirc.

Regardless, having mass does not mean that the attacks force is somehow dormant, when it's literally just a sphere/wave of energy. This should be obvious. Of course, there are some attacks in DBZ that function as "bombs", but that's only through extreme mastery of ki control. Hell, Gotenks was able to make a sphere with SOLID MASS, out of his own ki, capable of trapping even Super Buu, who was capable of tearing dimensions with just a shout.

The point is, whether or not the attack has detonated, surviving, overpowering, and no-selling explosions with planet+ level destructive capacity is the only feat Goku needs, at this point, when it comes to durability, or strength. You could argue that his physical lifts would be lower than Hal's, which would be wrong, but you could. It doesn't matter though, since his strikes are capable of effortlessly surpassing planet level durability, even in base form during the Namek Saga.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Currently working on my reply to Skillz, but holy shit is a good amount of your post misinformed - case in point:

The yellow impurity hasn't been an obstacle for any non-veteran GL since, the impurity that is Parallax - E.I. - the living embodiment of fear itself, was removed from the Central power battery; the very source of all the Green Lantern Corps power.

I'll tackle the rest after I reply to Supreme, just wanted to comment on how out of touch you seem to be, with a character you are debating against with such conviction.

Wrong again, pal.

The residual effects of Parallax's imprisonment were still there, it just became possible to overcome said "impurity" by overcoming one's own fear- a feat which proved nigh-impossible, even to Hal Jordan, whom succumbed to Parallax and the yellow impurity on multiple occasions. He was simply able to overcome the weakness and develop a resistance to the yellow impurity. This does not mean he was no longer affected by it, as we see during Blackest night in multiple issues.

The yellow impurity is very much still an obstacle for the GLC, Hal included.

And for the record, whenever he has been exposed to Parallax, he has been treated like a sniveling infant. Something with the power of SSJ Goku, capable of tanking planet busters like light breezes, along with a staggering amount of yellow ki? Hal would shit himself.

Not that it even matters- even if we were to grant Hal absolute immunity to the impurity, Goku is still above him in speed, durability, and destructive capacity.

Goku wins.

Only rookies struggle with the color. The entity is neither here nor there.

If you read comics, you'd know this.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
If they are aimed at a planet or building or something, sure. Either way they still do the damage to beings when they hit them, if they have a secondary explosion, obviously more. Even Final Flash exploded iirc the first time, yet it still tore Cell in half to a point where he might very well have been destroyed if he didn't move.

Basically the initial contact is intended to do the effect. The blast is never docile or inert unless otherwise stated.

If that were true for energy balls then how come they don't explode when characters try to push them? If they haven't exploded yet then while they may not be docile, they certainly aren't as destructive as they are when they detonate* and thus arguing that the character "tanked" the detonation energies because they push the ball back is clearly wrong.

* or rather you can claim that they're somehow as "energetic" as their detonations but not as collaterally devastating, but this isn't something based on any evidence

First and foremost, you cannot judge the potency of ki attacks by the amount of collateral damage they cause -- potency and collateral damage are rarely ever synonymous in the DBU.

For example, Roshi's charged attack(with a PL of 180) was able to destroy the moon. Conversely, Raditz' charged attack(with a PL of ~1,200) only destroyed a mountain range. Put those two in a beam-struggle, however, and Raditz is going to overpower Roshi effortlessly -- collateral damage be damned. As I mentioned above: in the DBU, the potency of an attack is, more times than not, SEVERAL orders of magnitude greater than the collateral damage that blast causes.

tl;dr
collateral damage/scope is meaningless 99% of the time -- potency is what matters.

Secondly, a standard ki attack doesn't get inextricably more powerful when it detonates -- it has all the energy it's going to have when the user initially fires it. So whether you get struck by the beam itself or the beam's subsequent detonation is irrelevant... It's the SAME amount of energy/ki regardless(barring specialized attacks, obviously.)

It's pointless Galan.

They'll never accept your arguments for Superman beating Goku and always resort to collateral damage arguments, like the universal wave non feat.

Originally posted by Galan007
First and foremost, you cannot judge the potency of ki attacks by the amount of collateral damage they cause -- potency and collateral damage are rarely ever synonymous in the DBU.

For example, Roshi's charged attack(with a PL of 180) was able to destroy the moon. Conversely, Raditz' charged attack(with a PL of ~1,200) only destroyed a mountain range. Put those two in a beam-struggle, however, and Raditz is going to overpower Roshi effortlessly -- collateral damage be damned. As I mentioned above: in the DBU, the potency of an attack is, more times than not, SEVERAL orders of magnitude greater than the collateral damage that blast causes.

tl;dr
collateral damage/scope is meaningless 99% of the time -- potency is what matters.

But the entire argument for the potency of this energy ball is its collateral damage which doesn't manifest until after detonation. Which leads us to:

Secondly, a standard ki attack doesn't get inextricably more powerful when it detonates -- it has all the energy it's going to have when the user initially fires it. So whether you get struck by the beam itself or the beam's subsequent detonation is irrelevant... It's the SAME amount of energy/ki regardless(barring specialized attacks, obviously.)

Lol that's like saying that getting physically hit by a nuclear warhead is equivalent to having it detonate on you. It's not "inextricable" when it clearly mirrors a bomb in that it visibly starts causing far more damage and its energetic parts start rapidly dispersing similar to the energy, shrapnel and shockwaves of a bomb. The most logical observation is that when a character is pushing back the ball, it's pushing back it's momentum / kinetic energy or some ki-"physics" analogy of it.

Otherwise how do you explain why even when the characters are outmatched by the energy ball, they can often still resist for some period of time but then die as soon as the ball explodes? See: Kid Buu vs. the Spirit Bomb. That clearly suggests that touching the ball with your hands != getting consumed by it or having it detonate.

Furthermore, what does it even mean to say that the ball has the same "potency" on people touching it before it explodes? They're still only touching a small fraction of its surface area.

Originally posted by Galan007
First and foremost, you cannot judge the potency of ki attacks by the amount of collateral damage they cause -- potency and collateral damage are rarely ever synonymous in the DBU.

For example, Roshi's charged attack(with a PL of 180) was able to destroy the moon. Conversely, Raditz' charged attack(with a PL of ~1,200) only destroyed a mountain range. Put those two in a beam-struggle, however, and Raditz is going to overpower Roshi effortlessly -- collateral damage be damned. As I mentioned above: in the DBU, the potency of an attack is, more times than not, SEVERAL orders of magnitude greater than the collateral damage that blast causes.

tl;dr
collateral damage/scope is meaningless 99% of the time -- potency is what matters.

Secondly, a standard ki attack doesn't get inextricably more powerful when it detonates -- it has all the energy it's going to have when the user initially fires it. So whether you get struck by the beam itself or the beam's subsequent detonation is irrelevant... It's the SAME amount of energy/ki regardless(barring specialized attacks, obviously.)

👆

Goku

Easily.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If that were true for energy balls then how come they don't explode when characters try to push them? If they haven't exploded yet then while they may not be docile, they certainly aren't as destructive as they are when they detonate* and thus arguing that the character "tanked" the detonation energies because they push the ball back is clearly wrong.

* or rather you can claim that they're somehow as "energetic" as their detonations but not as collaterally devastating, but this isn't something based on any evidence

Take for example the spirit bomb, why did it explode after it erased Kid Buu? And doesn't that mean it still retains all the destructive energies in the initial blast? Things in DB only seem to explode when they hit something really hard (sometimes) or over time. But all the initial energy is still destructive, and if it's rammed into someone at high speeds, even moreso. Even the slow moving ones that hit people damage.
Which moves us to our next point, the implication that only balls exploding were planet destroying in capabilities or damage. We already know that even Vegeta in the Goku fight could destroy the planet with a non exploding Galick Gun. And then take a more powerful attack. Do we pretend that more powerful attacks could are somehow less than this because they destroyed a single brick, or do we assume that collateral damage past this point is irrelevant as we already have a baseline for less powerful attacks under the same writer?
Another example is Kid Buu casually destroying Earth without powering up with a vanishing ball. Yet he was throwing bigger attacks with more power behind them and failing to repeat that sort of damage. Frieza at a max of 530 000 destroying a planet while at 120 000 000 throwing more powerful attacks that explode. A severely weakened Frieza knocked out of Gold casually destroying Earth while previous attacks at full power at max destroyed some mountains. Etc.
Almost every attack past that stage could conceivably be planet destroying, but we don't know to what degree. When the power starts going up by millions, it makes the distinction of attacks not causing immense collateral damage kind of pointless. Hence why planet destroying is usually used as a baseline. It doesn't tell you how powerful someone actually is but I guess it sounds impressive. They operate on a level easily able to destroy planets. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it does say "planetary".

Also hands are either really durable in DB, or if you really need an explanation, it could be argued they're using focused ki in their hands to physically handle it. Though it seems more like a power vs power example more than anything. Like how Kid Buu could physically stop the spirit bomb until Goku powered up and forced more into it. Or Frieza overpowered the hakai, or how he thought he could again. Or like how Frieza tried to stop the spirit bomb from descending and it also destroyed his death ball iirc.

There's more, and I could go over it better, but I need to post before I run out of battery at 2 percent. Basically if someone kicks an energy attack away, it seems like they are directly overpowering that much energy. With a kick.

Hal Jordan wins, way too powerful, especially since Rebirth. The feats of defeating a Sentient Krona's Gauntlet (hundreds of lanterns power), beating Mogo (with hundreds of lanterns power), and being the literal SPARK of CREATION which Volthoom was planning to use makes God of Will Hal Jordan far beyond Goku at this point in the DBZ series to quite frankly an absurd degree.

And why are people arguing speed? Like Hal Jordan didn't just move SO FAST he nearly entered into the SPEED FORCE chasing down the New God Light Ray and outrunning OMEGA BEAMS?

Rookie GL's like Jessica Cruz can literally hold together planets in a supernova and tank black holes at 6% ring power and Hal Jordan is fighting and DEFEATING folks with hundreds of GL's power. Hal Jordan is simply WAY too POWERFUL for Son Goku during the Frieza saga on planet namek to defeat.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Because it's Dragonball, and none of this is based on evidence, or rather statements.

Take for example the spirit bomb, why did it explode after it erased Kid Buu? And doesn't that mean it still retains all the destructive energies in the initial blast? Things in DB only seem to explode when they hit something really hard (sometimes) or over time. But all the initial energy is still destructive, and if it's rammed into someone at high speeds, even moreso. Even the slow moving ones that hit people damage.
Which moves us to our next point, the implication that only balls exploding were planet destroying in capabilities or damage. We already know that even Vegeta in the Goku fight could destroy the planet with a non exploding Galick Gun. And then take a more powerful attack. Do we pretend that more powerful attacks could are somehow less than this because they destroyed a single brick, or do we assume that collateral damage past this point is irrelevant as we already have a baseline for less powerful attacks under the same writer?
Another example is Kid Buu casually destroying Earth without powering up with a vanishing ball. Yet he was throwing bigger attacks with more power behind them and failing to repeat that sort of damage. Frieza at a max of 530 000 destroying a planet while at 120 000 000 throwing more powerful attacks that explode. A severely weakened Frieza knocked out of Gold casually destroying Earth while previous attacks at full power at max destroyed some mountains. Etc.
Almost every attack past that stage could conceivably be planet destroying, but we don't know to what degree. When the power starts going up by millions, it makes the distinction of attacks not causing immense collateral damage kind of pointless. Hence why planet destroying is usually used as a baseline. It doesn't tell you how powerful someone actually is but I guess it sounds impressive. They operate on a level easily able to destroy planets. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it does say "planetary".

Also hands are either really durable in DB, or if you really need an explanation, it could be argued they're using focused ki in their hands to physically handle it. Though it seems more like a power vs power example more than anything. Like how Kid Buu could physically stop the spirit bomb until Goku powered up and forced more into it. Or Frieza overpowered the hakai, or how he thought he could again. Or like how Frieza tried to stop the spirit bomb from descending and it also destroyed his death ball iirc.

There's more, and I could go over it better, but I need to post before I run out of battery at 2 percent. Basically if someone kicks an energy attack away, it seems like they are directly overpowering that much energy. With a kick.

👆

Which is the reason the person who is throwing the attack piss on themselves when the villain or hero redirect their attacks.

Originally posted by Sensui
Hal Jordan wins, way too powerful, especially since Rebirth. The feats of defeating a Sentient Krona's Gauntlet (hundreds of lanterns power), beating Mogo (with hundreds of lanterns power), and being the literal SPARK of CREATION which Volthoom was planning to use makes God of Will Hal Jordan far beyond Goku at this point in the DBZ series to quite frankly an absurd degree.

And why are people arguing speed? Like Hal Jordan didn't just move SO FAST he nearly entered into the SPEED FORCE chasing down the New God Light Ray and outrunning OMEGA BEAMS?

Rookie GL's like Jessica Cruz can literally hold together planets in a supernova and tank black holes at 6% ring power and Hal Jordan is fighting and DEFEATING folks with hundreds of GL's power. Hal Jordan is simply WAY too POWERFUL for Son Goku during the Frieza saga on planet namek to defeat.

Goku won't defeat him, he will destroy him. Also, the fts you named are lame as hell.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Because it's Dragonball, and none of this is based on evidence, or rather statements.

Take for example the spirit bomb, why did it explode after it erased Kid Buu? And doesn't that mean it still retains all the destructive energies in the initial blast? Things in DB only seem to explode when they hit something really hard (sometimes) or over time. But all the initial energy is still destructive, and if it's rammed into someone at high speeds, even moreso. Even the slow moving ones that hit people damage.
Which moves us to our next point, the implication that only balls exploding were planet destroying in capabilities or damage. We already know that even Vegeta in the Goku fight could destroy the planet with a non exploding Galick Gun. And then take a more powerful attack. Do we pretend that more powerful attacks could are somehow less than this because they destroyed a single brick, or do we assume that collateral damage past this point is irrelevant as we already have a baseline for less powerful attacks under the same writer?
Another example is Kid Buu casually destroying Earth without powering up with a vanishing ball. Yet he was throwing bigger attacks with more power behind them and failing to repeat that sort of damage. Frieza at a max of 530 000 destroying a planet while at 120 000 000 throwing more powerful attacks that explode. A severely weakened Frieza knocked out of Gold casually destroying Earth while previous attacks at full power at max destroyed some mountains. Etc.
Almost every attack past that stage could conceivably be planet destroying, but we don't know to what degree. When the power starts going up by millions, it makes the distinction of attacks not causing immense collateral damage kind of pointless. Hence why planet destroying is usually used as a baseline. It doesn't tell you how powerful someone actually is but I guess it sounds impressive. They operate on a level easily able to destroy planets. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it does say "planetary".

Also hands are either really durable in DB, or if you really need an explanation, it could be argued they're using focused ki in their hands to physically handle it. Though it seems more like a power vs power example more than anything. Like how Kid Buu could physically stop the spirit bomb until Goku powered up and forced more into it. Or Frieza overpowered the hakai, or how he thought he could again. Or like how Frieza tried to stop the spirit bomb from descending and it also destroyed his death ball iirc.

There's more, and I could go over it better, but I need to post before I run out of battery at 2 percent. Basically if someone kicks an energy attack away, it seems like they are directly overpowering that much energy. With a kick.

In DB, we are dealing with characters who've learned to control their ki to such an extent that they can contain/focus extremely large amounts of energy into a relatively small areas. That's why SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, for example, was able to release the sum total of his energy when he Kamikaze'd against Fat Boo, yet only destroyed a relatively small area of land(even though he was a casual planet-buster at the time.) Even though the blast didn't destroy the earth and beyond, it undoubtedly contained enough power to do so. Hence why I said that potency and collateral damage are rarely ever synonymous in the DBU... In this mythos, the potency of an attack is all that really matters.

And like I also mentioned above: when an attack leaves its user's hands, it already has *all* the power it's going to have... It doesn't magically gain additional energy when it detonates. So whether you get struck by the beam itself or the beam's subsequent detonation is irrelevant... It's the SAME amount of energy/ki regardless(barring specialized attacks, obviously) -- SSJ2 Gohan's final Kamehameha against SPC is a prime example.

Originally posted by Galan007
In DB, we are dealing with characters who've learned to control their ki to such an extent that they can contain/focus extremely large amounts of energy into a relatively small areas. That's why SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, for example, was able to release the sum total of his energy when he Kamikaze'd against Fat Boo, yet only destroyed a relatively small area of land(even though he was a casual planet-buster at the time.) Even though the blast didn't destroy the earth and beyond, it undoubtedly contained enough power to do so. Hence why I said that potency and collateral damage are rarely ever synonymous in the DBU... In this mythos, the potency of an attack is all that really matters.

No one's contesting that. But that,

And like I also mentioned above: when an attack leaves its user's hands, it already has *all* the power it's going to have... So whether you get struck by the beam itself or the beam's subsequent detonation is irrelevant

does not prove this.

No, the simple application of common sense proves that. A detonation is just the release of the energy contained within the beam itself -- the beam doesn't mysteriously gain additional energy out of thin air when it detonates.

Speaking about bad physics analogies:

Originally posted by Galan007
No, the simple application of common sense proves that. A detonation is just the release of the energy contained within the beam itself -- the beam doesn't mysteriously gain additional energy out of thin air when it detonates.

*energy balls was the topic, not beams

If we're using "common sense" then the common sense is clearly that these balls are meant to be analogous to explosives wherein on detonating they do a lot more damage than when they're just slowly rolling over something. Even if there's some analogy to mass-energy conversation as you suggest, the ball may still contain the same amount of energy, it just isn't being transferred in the same way, just as how chemical explosives aren't gaining mass-energy when they explode, they're just releasing chemical bonds, or in the case of say a fission warhead splitting nucleii. But nobody thinks that the Enola Gay's bomb compartment is "tanking" a nuclear warhead by holding one.

The other pretty clear difference is that the defender is only touching a small fraction of the surface area of the ball with his hands in one case, whereas he's dealing with a far greater proportion of the energy in the case where it explodes on or consumes him. This would explain why villains will survive for a while against massive energy balls by holding their hands out and die when the blast either consumes their bodies or explodes. What happens if Goku touches an energy ball and then Frieza comes to touch it too? Do they both tank the full energy or half? What if like a billion ants all go around and touch the ball alongside Goku? How is the energy split?

Spoiler:
By some proportion to the geometry of Goku's contact with it, obviously.

If I may be blunt your case doesn't make much sense at all.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, the simple application of common sense proves that. A detonation is just the release of the energy contained within the beam itself -- the beam doesn't mysteriously gain additional energy out of thin air when it detonates.

👆

Honestly, this is one of the most moronic arguments I've seen against DBZ characters.

Originally posted by ares834
👆

Honestly, this is one of the most moronic arguments I've seen against DBZ characters.

I don't think geometry is your strong suit if you think touching a portion of a dense energy ball with your hands would compare with the planet busting caused by the release of the ball's entire mass, or that you can reasonably say that Goku "knocked back" a "planet buster" so he must have "planet level" durability.