Ahsoka Tano vs Darth Vader (Cont.), Sheev Palpatine vs Ahsoka Tano / Ezra Bridger!

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Sidious was playing around. Sidious was just laughing.

, and Ashoka, barely managed to hold it back for 3-4 seconds

Sidious is known to hold back against his opponents to tease/torture them(aka Luke in ROTJ)

Untill you can fufill the burden of proof here, this "sidious was toying" line of argumentation shall be ignored. Logic dictates he would be trying to overwhelm Ahsoka, so we'll go with that.

Not to mention that she only managed to hold-back a fraction of the flames.

The only valid context that might be here is that of the nexus, but I'll need to see the episode first to see if this is substantiated. Just so we're clear here, if you choose to factor in this "nexus", it would be intellectually dishonest not to factor the Malachor nexus which was at play when Ahsoka drove back Maul and lasted more than 2 minutes against Vader.

As the latter should make obvious, Ahsoka is close to SWR Vader as a combatant. While holistic intent ensures Vader's superiority on even ground, there's not going to be a significant gap between him and a combatant that can hold him off for at least more than 2 minutes on a nexus. While this Vader is mostcertainly pre-prime, Ahsoka can scale above Vader's LOTS feats like:

-> Pulling down a freighter much larger than the one TCW Maul dragged off a cliff

-> Disintegrating light saber resistant Lileks

Also, as she is still alive, we will likely see more showings. It's also quite possible she will be growing more powerful, especially given her potential. Despite only having two years of training in the order, she's already nearing the likes of Kenobi and is catching up with Vader.

Originally posted by Greysentinel365
Nothing new on the Vader vs Ahsoka front. I'm calling that a loss for her. She was still being forced back and would have been killed if not for Ezra.

And I'm honestly not even surprised by her holding the Emperor. Remember that concept Filoni had of her holding the Emperor's lighting in the Jedi Temple or something?

There was a concept for that?

Wasn't really lightning it was fire from the pit that Sidious sent from what I remember.

It's a continuous storm of flames that a post AOTC Kenobi has been shown to deflect easily from Druge's flamethrower. Yes the source of the flames is different but still.

Ahsoka even says she can't hold it for long and needs Ezra's help who is pretty powerful in his own right.

It at least shows she's capable of Force deflection so she probably can deflect blaster bolts. I'm not sure.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
she probably can deflect blaster bolts. I'm not sure.

I wonder if there's a reason why the first attack was conjured from the fires of the alter itself, but subsequent attacks were conjured from Palpatine's own hand..?

#1 Don't get legends feats involved with what happens in canon. I'm all for debunking the hype of this feat, but Kenobi deflecting Durge's flamethrower isn't applicable here as it throws out of the water any tutaminis-type abilities we've seen in canon.

@Rocky

1. Sidious was obviously laughing throughout the duel with Yoda, but only during moments when he had the upper hand (e.g pod throwing). The moment Yoda became problematic for him he shut his mouth pretty quick. It has nothing to do with toying or not; that's just how he is all the time. This being said, we know that Tano and Ezra momentarily defended themselves from only a fraction of his power for any of the following reasons:

A. Sheev's goal here is to capture them so that he can enter the omniportal. Striking them with overwhelming force would mean losing his ultimate prize. When Tano and Ezra resisted his initial attack it made sense for him to cut it off, and presumably weaken them through multiple weaker attacks rather than outright overpower them with this obscure sith flame ability and risk killing them hence preventing him from entering the portal.

B. The attack in the scene stems from Sidious's sith sorcery and not directly himself. There is presumably a limitation to the amount of power that can be transfered directly from Sidious into the altar in the form of sith lightning (as we saw in TCW), transformed into this blue-flame, and then shot through a portal. At the very least it's not unreasonable to speculate that some power-loss occurs with the transfer of each of these states; especially when we consider how Sidious struggled to keep the flames moving at the rate of the jedi's running speed. We can infer that some cap on power is involved due to the unique circumstances.

Ahsoka diverted the flames not by manipulating the entire the attack but by forming a wedge shaped barrier. Again, she wasn't taking the entire attack. It's silly to say that Sidious was aiming the attack at her; it wasn't concentrated on her more than it was a wave of flames aimed at their general vicinity.

ezra escaping Sheev is a new low from filoni, when are they cancelling this shit?

Ashoka was clearly at Vader’s mercy

Originally posted by carthage
Ashoka was clearly at Vader’s mercy

As for this thread, I think Palpatine was laughing because he knew that through the two Jedi, he'd finally gain access to all of space and time. Ahsoka barely managed to hold out against the flames, even with Ezra's help. With that said, Ahsoka is roughly TCW Maul level by this point in time, so I can totally see her managing to hold her own for those few seconds.

You guys do know that no one thought Ahsoka was above Vader, right? Like, literally no one? Some of you open your posts with, "Yeah, Ahsoka is definitely Vader's inferior" as if that wasn't already a foregone conclusion.

Originally posted by Kurk
1. Sidious was obviously laughing throughout the duel with Yoda, but only during moments when he had the upper hand (e.g pod throwing). The moment Yoda became problematic for him he shut his mouth pretty quick. It has nothing to do with toying or not; that's just how he is all the time.

Originally posted by Kurk
A. Sheev's goal here is to capture them so that he can enter the omniportal. Striking them with overwhelming force would mean losing his ultimate prize.

But even if I'm being generous with your point, we've seen Palpatine use nonlethal forms of Force attacks numerous times with effective results (against Darth Maul and Savage Opress, Count Dooku, Luke Skywalker, etc.). Minimizing the feat by pointing out that Palpatine wasn't trying to kill Ahsoka immediately doesn't make any sense if you're trying to make what she did seem less impressive. Palpatine is supremely powerful regardless of his intentions with his attacks, as his track record shows.

Originally posted by Kurk
When Tano and Ezra resisted his initial attack it made sense for him to cut it off, and presumably weaken them through multiple weaker attacks rather than outright overpower them with this obscure sith flame ability and risk killing them hence preventing him from entering the portal.

Further, you seem to be of the opinion that Palpatine was taking this encounter with Ahsoka and Ezra seriously enough to alter his tactics enough to risk them fleeing as a trade-off to not harm them severely. Weird how you can formulate such meticulous tactics for Palpatine while also claiming he was toying. mmm

Originally posted by Kurk
B. The attack in the scene stems from Sidious's sith sorcery and not directly himself. There is presumably a limitation to the amount of power that can be transfered directly from Sidious into the altar in the form of sith lightning (as we saw in TCW), transformed into this blue-flame, and then shot through a portal. At the very least it's not unreasonable to speculate that some power-loss occurs with the transfer of each of these states; especially when we consider how Sidious struggled to keep the flames moving at the rate of the jedi's running speed. We can infer that some cap on power is involved due to the unique circumstances.

Originally posted by Kurk
Ahsoka diverted the flames not by manipulating the entire the attack but by forming a wedge shaped barrier. Again, she wasn't taking the entire attack. It's silly to say that Sidious was aiming the attack at her; it wasn't concentrated on her more than it was a wave of flames aimed at their general vicinity.

Palpatine aimed the attack at Ahsoka and she absorbed it, causing the flames to fork to her sides. That does not mean that the attack wasn't concentrated against her, it's simply a natural and expected result of blocking a fire-based attack. It's clear that this is the case when you see Palpatine's expulsion of the attack: the fire is narrow and directed, but when Ahsoka starts absorbing it the flames fork to her side. The fire grows around Ahsoka and Ezra presumably because Palpatine is ramping up the attack.

So to summarize your post, you 1.) continually contradict yourself (toying vs. not toying, lethal vs. nonlethal), 2.) bring up incongruent and incoherent examples to dismiss the feat (the strength of sorcery), and 3.) bring up silly points like "Palpatine wasn't aiming at Ahsoka" (LMFAO). If you respond, Kurk, try to refrain from desperate mental gymnastics. Thanks.

....I still can't wrap my head around why they did this. They had this excellent sendoff for Tano and now were heading into the last episodes next week and the series is done. It doesn't look like she's gonna be wrapped up and so her fate is gonna be concluded in some random comic or book that not many would bother to read? By comparison to the people that watch TV I mean, it'll feel very disconnected imo.

I'm crossing my fingers that Filoni is pitching an Ahsoka solo movie. 😄

Hm, also possible yeah. Though not really sure what it could be about, she can't really interact with the Rebellion or Luke or any of the others. I guess she could end up fighting Vader again, though I don't think it would have such an emotional impact like it did with the S2 final.

But I guess it's possible, if only to get a proper lightsaber fight seeing as we haven't really had one between two trained combatants in the newer movies. Unless the final movie of the ST gives us a proper fight.

Maybe it'd take place post-Return of the Jedi.

I'm guessing she will show up in the next series, probably post-RotJ.

Edit: Ninjad

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Maybe it'd take place post-Return of the Jedi.

Which brings in some questions and issues. But yeah, that could be.

@Joker,

My understanding was that this is an open ended discussion thread to propose any theories and possible explanations for what happened in this episode, not a debate. It's okay for me not to utilize every possible point in favor of lowballing Ahsoka just to get my d1ck hard over the internet.

Sheev laughing has nothing to do with whether he's toying or not, holding back or not, whatever you want to call it. He clearly likes to make audible noises that reflect his position of power in battle; whether that be laughing when he believes he's winning or yelling/groaning when strained.

Here is what is known:

• Right after casting the initial spell Sidious was audibly groaning/grunting when pushing the flames through the portal and towards the jedi duo, even before Ahsoka started defending herself:
https://youtu.be/Yg8mUrtHjRQ?t=1m10s

• Once the jedi ran away Sidious again was audibly strained just trying to keep the flames moving at the running pace of the two jedi:
https://youtu.be/Yg8mUrtHjRQ?t=2m13s

• His facial expression here coupled with his cry of defeat when Ezra escapes insinuates that Sidious was putting forth 100% of his effort at this moment:
https://youtu.be/Yg8mUrtHjRQ?t=3m19s

• This pyrokinesis-type ability that Sidious was using has never been seen in canon before, so we have nothing to compare it to. I know I said to not use legends when discussing canon feats, but I believe in this case an exception can be made.

Unlike force-lightning, the power of pyrokinesis does not stem from the direct energy of the force-user themselves. Instead it is generated through the energy of rubbing air molecules together. In the Plagueis novel, Palpatine uses pyrokinesis to kill Pax Teem. It's explained that the effort needed to wield the power increases as the flame grows due to the user needing to both direct the holistic inferno as well as focus on the atomic-level kinetics to create fire.

This idea is reflected in the Rebels episode. Palpatine appears to need his full concentration and power towards the end of the encounter as the flame grows larger and larger while chasing Ahsoka and Kanan. It's reasonable to assume that less effort was needed for the initial attack due to the smaller flame size, but it's still a demanding task when you compare it with the concentration Sidious needed in the Plagueis novel just to flame-up a room.

So,

• Ahsoka was likely only defending against an indirect form of Sidious's power, as the power of pyrokinesis stems from the energy of molecular kinetics and not the user.

• Whatever residual amount of direct-power Sidious was implementing into the attack was likely a reduced version of what Tano would've experienced had Sheev been in person because a significant amount of that power had to be dedicated to controlling the actual inferno size, which was quite large as it covered the distance between Sidious, the portal, and jedi duo.

The above point about pyrokinesis negates anything else you said, as we're now talking about an indirect form of Sidious's power, but in case you only want to stick to canon only (in other words ignore the Legends explanation):

You said:
"t really doesn't. Palpatine would indisputably use all of the power at his disposal given the stakes and importance of his goal. Palpatine wanting to capture Ahsoka and Ezra does not preclude him attacking them at full-power enough for them to be rendered either incapacitated or fatigued enough to fend off his attack any longer—and seeing as how we're talking about Palpatine, that's still a lot of power."

Yes Palpatine has all his power at his disposal, but this doesn't mean he's not prone being blinded by his over-confidence as he's often seen to be:

a. instead of immediately defeating the Maul brothers as he was capable of doing so, he played around with them believing that he could end the fight at anytime he wished. This came close to backfiring for him when Maul briefly gained an upper-hand towards the end of their fight.

b. instead of gutting Mace Windu when given the chance (remember when he holds the saber to his chest?) he again plays with his opponent. Like with Maul, this backfired again and his opponent was able to defeat him.

c. Sidious underestimates Yoda after over-whelming him with thrown senate-pods. His over-confidence and enjoyment of the situation causes him to fail in seeing Yoda's lengthy counter attack.

I would suspect that his over-confidence again prevented him from obtaining his goal in this scenario. He stopped attacking Ahsoka not because she was briefly stalemating him, but because he wanted to enjoy seeing her fatigued and helpless against him. We know this because Sidious was laughing right after he cut off his attack. He wasn't concerned or strained like he was when Yoda was absorbing his lightning in RotS.

Given how much pleasure he was taking in the situation, we can deduce that Sidious was at the very least not putting in the same level of mental effort that Ahsoka was—which was a fight or flight response.

I have don't have any tangible evidence to justify my theory of Palpatine's altar power being weaker than his personal power as it's only my interpretation. By definition all interpretations are valid, but some are more reasonable than others. Why is it reasonable? Well:

- Palpatine was manipulating the flames of the altar to reach out to the jedi. They were not stemming directly from his person. If they were, would it make any sense for Sidious to be straining as hard he was towards the end to keep the flames moving at a running pace? This would suggest that Palpatine was only manipulating the power of the altar, in the form of flames, to reach out to the jedi. He wasn't attacking personally.

- We saw that Palpatine was only able to reach into the omni-dimensional portal once his magic flames made contact with Ezra. This means he wouldn't have been able make any contact with the jedi until this happened. If Sidious was utilizing his personal, physical powers they wouldn't have been able to get through the portal because he couldn't get through the portal himself.

Unlike anything Mother Talzin has done, Sidious was attempting to enter into another dimension altogether. His personal power transferring into that realm would've been next to non-existent.

Ahsoka diverted the wave of flames; she didn't absorb it. The fire wraps around them because they're altering its flow. The initial attack from Sidious wasn't concentrated, it just looks like that due to viewer angle. Plus a few seconds later you can see that the wave of flames ahead of Tano are are just as large as the one behind her.

If we are considering that pyrokinesis involves influence on the atomic level and excitation to produce flames then I am at a loss as to why we aren't considering the same for force lightning. Because you know, lightning too involves excitation of the molecules and generation of plasma, via potential difference.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I'm crossing my fingers that Filoni is pitching an Ahsoka solo movie. 😄

She needs to die vs Vader,

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
After the Ahsoka novel,I don't trust disney to handle it well.

She needs to die vs Vader,

Well unfortunately, they axed that idea in Rebels.

I mean they could do it again, but a second time is too much I feel given the setup they had before, they can't do it again.

Palpatine attempts to defeat Ahsoka, he overwhelms her tutaminis (I guess?) initially until Ezra uses his own power to bolster her defense (doesn't look like Ezra ever directly deflects the attack even though his hand glows. Second round would have killed them both which is why they opt to withdraw.