Originally posted by Galan007To add to this, I think post-Mustafar Vader was also wise enough to know that he simply was not powerful enough to destroy [an undistracted] Palpatine by himself, and would have never been foolish enough to try. That much was made abundantly clear in this scene:
I don't think Sheev ever believed Vader would turn on him, until he was literally hurling down the reactor shaft in RotJ. That said, I believe he was okay with having an apprentice that would never try to kill him, because his ultimate goal was to essentially become 'God' by attaining an ultimate power that would allow him to reshape the universe in his own image... And thanks to the World Between Worlds, Palpatine knew that such power was indeed attainable. He wanted this power more than anything, and I highly doubt that desire ended after his final temptation of Ezra in Rebels -- I imagine he continued seeking out a gateway to that realm up until his death.Suffice to say, Palpatine seemed to regard Vader as more of a pawn/lapdog that simply did his bidding, rather than an eventual 'replacement'. Imo. /shrug
...Hence his "join me" monologue to Luke in ESB. /shrug
No. Sidious clearly says he intends to be the last successor of Bane as early as TPM. As for using Canon to argue Legends and vice versa, I see little in either that would suggest power is even remotely important to killing one's master outside of DoE. It's also something we shouldn't be doing anyway.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. Sidious clearly says he intends to be the last successor of Bane as early as TPM. As for using Canon to argue Legends and vice versa, I see little in either that would suggest power is even remotely important to killing one's master outside of DoE. It's also something we shouldn't be doing anyway.
Yet people continue to do so...for whatever reason.
Originally posted by FreshestSliceOf course. There are clearly more ways to kill one's master than in direct combat or w/e -- Sidious himself employed the assassination tactic to kill Plagueis, for example. I was just saying that Vader knew he was inferior to Palpatine, so he would have never even attempted a direct confrontation -- regardless of how enraged he may have become.
No. Sidious clearly says he intends to be the last successor of Bane as early as TPM. As for using Canon to argue Legends and vice versa, I see little in either that would suggest power is even remotely important to killing one's master outside of DoE. It's also something we shouldn't be doing anyway.
...But this is all secondary to the other facts at hand:
a.) Palpatine trusted Vader implicitly. He likely never thought that Vader would betray him until he was literally hurling down the reactor shaft.
b.) *Per Legends, Palpatine never wanted a true successor in the first place.
*Canon, however, is more of a grey area regarding Palpatine's motives when he initially succeeded Palgueis... He may have wanted a successor initially, but by the final season of Rebels and the Tarkin novelization, it's clear that his primary goal was attaining the sort of universal godhood/supremacy that would make his rule permanent. No successors/replacements; only HIS rule. Forever.
That isn't what those comic panels say nor, given how things work in Canon, is it something we should imply. It has little to do with "inferiority" a lot more to do with other factors. It's possible to draw that conclusion, but pretending it's some definite thing said by Vader is being disingenuous. Palatine wanted Vader to become mighty. Maybe even mighty enough to kill him given time. He at least thought Vader had more to him. Nothing in Canon contradicts this being a possible future, your statements to the contrary.
Given the context of the story, the scene implies precisely what I stated. You'd have to twist said context quite a bit to see it any other way, tbh... And it's not the first time in canon that Palpatine has made his superiority over Vader clear, either:
Of course Palpatine wanted a powerful apprentice -- that has never been brought into question. However, very little(almost nothing) in canon suggests that he ever intended post-Mustafar Vader to kill/replace him, nor is there much(if any) evidence to suggest that Vader ever planned on usurping Palpatine alone... Which are my main points here.
But if you have evidence to the contrary, please do feel free to post it... I'd be more than welcome to go more in-depth here if need be.
Originally posted by Galan007
Given the context of the story, the scene implies precisely what I stated. You'd have to twist said context quite a bit to see it any other way, tbh... And it's not the first time in canon that Palpatine has made his superiority over Vader clear, either:
Of course Palpatine wanted a powerful apprentice -- that has never been brought into question. However, very little(almost nothing) in canon suggests that he ever intended post-Mustafar Vader to kill/replace him, nor is there much(if any) evidence to suggest that Vader ever planned on usurping Palpatine alone... Which are my main points here.
But if you have evidence to the contrary, please do feel free to post it... I'd be more than welcome to go more in-depth here if need be.
I'm confused: we presumably agree that Sidious wanted Vader to replace him pre-Mustafar. After Mustafar, you're telling me that Palpatine changed his mind and decided that, if he could snap his fingers and change the outcome of that duel so that Vader retained his full potential, he wouldn't do it? So he regrets Vader's defeat but then decides it was actually a good thing all along?
Considering that in Canon, Vader's probably above Anakin, there's really nothing to suggest some huge hamper on potential. The author's already commented on Palpatine's motives either way.
The Emperor really wants Vader to dig deep into the dark side and see what he’s gained, even after everything he’s lost. That’s really where Vader is at this point. He’s lost everything he ever had to rely on; he doesn’t have any guiding light at all except for Palpatine. As we know, Palpatine is not a great mentor figure. You never know what his real agenda is and you never know if there’s actual loyalty. He calls Vader his friend and apprentice and partner all the time, but none of that ever rings completely true. You don’t know how true it is, except that he’s generally always out for himself.
Palpatine doesn't want tos top Mustafar because it would be counter intuitive to teaching Vader that his loses do not matter. Anything about "lost" potential is all but fanon at this point.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Considering that in Canon, Vader's probably above Anakin, there's really nothing to suggest some huge hamper on potential. The author's already commented on Palpatine's motives either way.Palpatine doesn't want tos top Mustafar because it would be counter intuitive to teaching Vader that his loses do not matter. Anything about "lost" potential is all but fanon at this point.
So, peak suit Vader vs. Palpatine in canon; who wins?
Originally posted by The EllimistI think Palpatine intended Anakin to succeed him at first, ergo: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!"
I'm confused: we presumably agree that Sidious wanted Vader to replace him pre-Mustafar. After Mustafar, you're telling me that Palpatine changed his mind and decided that, if he could snap his fingers and change the outcome of that duel so that Vader retained his full potential, he wouldn't do it? So he regrets Vader's defeat but then decides it was actually a good thing all along?
But after his defeat on Mustafar, Palpatine realized that Vader would never be able to reach his full potential, so he began seeking-out other means to permanently retain power himself. *Enter his goal of remaking the universe in his own image, and lusting after TWBW*
...In canon, at least. In Legends there is evidence to suggest that Palpatine never wanted a successor, period.
