Is Vitiate a Sith Lord?

@Azronger: The fact Tenebrae was the leader of the Sith Empire doesn't automatically bind him to the Sith Order. Tenebrae used the Sith Empire purely as a tool, with the Vitiate/Emperor persona as an intentional mask. If Tenebrae also created a mask and took control of the Jedi Order as Grand Master under the name "Gooditie," we wouldn't consider him a Jedi Master.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[B]@Azronger: The fact Tenebrae was the leader of the Sith Empire doesn't automatically bind him to the Sith Order. Tenebrae used the Sith Empire purely as a tool, with the Vitiate/Emperor persona as an intentional mask. If Tenebrae also created a mask and took control of the Jedi Order as Grand Master under the name "Gooditie," we wouldn't consider him a Jedi Master.

This literally addressed nothing; much of the same standards can be applied to Sidious in equal measure: he used the Republic purely as a tool, he created the benevolent old man Palpatine persona as an intentional mask. And under that mask, he took control of the Republic, yet me and you (I hope) consider him the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic.

If Vitiate took control of the Jedi Order as the Grand Master, then yes, I would wholeheartedly classify him as a Jedi Master, as should any reasonable and logical individual. The idea that the leader of the Jedi Order whose title is Jedi Master yet shouldn't be considered a Jedi Master makes zero sense. The fact that the person doesn't actually believe the ideology he endorses externally is completely irrelevant and beside the point.

If this is a semantics game, then what matters is the semantics of the OOU narrators, and those narrators have consistently sided with labeling Vitiate/Nihilus/Palpatine/etc. as Sith Lords. In the rare occasions that they don't, it's as a very targeted point.

So it looks like Vitiate is a DLOS. At least until he becomes Valk. Any objections to this?

Originally posted by JMANGO
So it looks like Vitiate is a DLOS. At least until he becomes Valk. Any objections to this?

I'm leaning towards no, because aside from one or two exceptions Valkorion not being a Sith is repeated quite a few times and even used as a plot point. He doesn't command Sith anymore, he brags about how he's transcended them, etc. But I'm open to having my mind changed.

Originally posted by JMANGO
So it looks like Vitiate is a DLOS. At least until he becomes Valk. Any objections to this?

He's a Sith all the way up to the end of the vanilla game. After that he turns his back to the Empire and his followers turn their backs on him.

The codex still refers to him as a Sith entity even as Failkorion, though. The devs have given their explanation:

But that's utter nonsense. Does this look like a member of the Sith species to you?

I would just ignore whatever comes out of the devs' mouths personally.

It's pretty odd that they never fully clarified whether the entity the Hero fought really was Vitiates true body or not. He certainly looked human but he could just be heavily corrupted and doesn't have face tentacles.

@ Az, obviously he means that Vitiate was originally a Sith Pureblood and so even though he takes on a human appearance his essence/true racial identity is still that of a Sith Pureblood.

Originally posted by Azronger
Doesn't matter. The point I'm illustrating is that regardless of the guy's personal beliefs in the matter, he clearly was acknowledged as a Sith Lord by historical sources (which are based off of actual historical records), and his title is Sith, just like with Darth Nihilus.

I don't see why you people have to make this needlessly complex. Palpatine was never a democrat as far as personal ideologies went, but he was still the leader of a democratic system. Or should I open the floodgate and let loose the endless stream of LeGenDary conspiracy theories about how Palpatine was never the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic?

Have fun.

Az, because personal ideology isn't the only reason why we don't consider Vitaite to be a Sith. To quote a senior TOR writer, Vitiate "left the sith faction" when he became Valkorion. Vitiate serves as a wolf in sheep's clothing. We don't consider a wolf a sheep, in the same way, we don't consider Vitiate is a Sith.

Originally posted by Azronger
He's a Sith all the way up to the end of the vanilla game. After that he turns his back to the Empire and his followers turn their backs on him.

The codex still refers to him as a Sith entity even as Failkorion, though. The devs have given their explanation:

But that's utter nonsense. Does this look like a member of the Sith species to you?

I would just ignore whatever comes out of the devs' mouths personally.

LMAO, Vitiate belongs to the Sith species, he appears in the form in which he dies, but that does not change his original species.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
So you agree he stopped being a Sith when he becomes Valk. He becomes Valk before Exar Kun's death.

Harrison, where is the argument that Vit became Valk as early as this?

Just like a human spirit/apparition still sports the word "human", Valk carries the terms Sith all the same.

Something I've been stating since before the devs quote; a simple concept to grasp, honestly.

Your comment has made you Azronger.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Harrison, where is the argument that Vit became Valk as early as this?

Here is the good question. (not being condescending this is actually the important question) Skillz and I stumbled upon this tidbit accidentally. When the Outlander arrives on Yavin 4, he meets a Dashade known as Ak'ghal Usar. Ak'ghal Usar went to Yavin 4 to kill Exar Kun. When he arrived, the world was devastated by his ritual. Ak'ghal Usar's anger prompted his desire to resurrect Kun. He found the Temple of Sacrifice(this is Zakuulian technology). Vitiate immediately arrives at the world to protect "his precious temple." While it is possible that Vitiate was aware of the temple due to research, Charles Boyd's statements certainly indicate otherwise. Boyd claims that Zakuul was in technology primitive state before Valkorion's arrival. This certainly that indicates that Valkorion commissioned the building of the temple. So, to summarize we have three pieces of evidence.

1. Valkorion always has a backup plan and is obsessed with immortality.

2. It makes literally no sense that the Zakuulians would build a random temple with the properties of the Temple of Sacrifice on Yavin 4, considering the fact that they were on the edges of the galaxy.

3. Zakuul was in a technologically primitive state before Valkorion's arrival.

I'd consider Vitiate a full Sith until after his duel with Revan and discovery of Zakuul.

Originally posted by darthbane77
I'd consider Vitiate a full Sith until after his duel with Revan and discovery of Zakuul.

He discovered Zakuul before his duel with Revan.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
He discovered Zakuul before his duel with Revan.

He held the position and title of Sith lord, yes.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Here is the good question. (not being condescending this is actually the important question) Skillz and I stumbled upon this tidbit accidentally. When the Outlander arrives on Yavin 4, he meets a Dashade known as Ak'ghal Usar. Ak'ghal Usar went to Yavin 4 to kill Exar Kun. When he arrived, the world was devastated by his ritual. Ak'ghal Usar's anger prompted his desire to resurrect Kun. He found the Temple of Sacrifice(this is Zakuulian technology). Vitiate immediately arrives at the world to protect "his precious temple." While it is possible that Vitiate was aware of the temple due to research, Charles Boyd's statements certainly indicate otherwise. Boyd claims that Zakuul was in technology primitive state before Valkorion's arrival. This certainly that indicates that Valkorion commissioned the building of the temple. So, to summarize we have three pieces of evidence.

1. Valkorion always has a backup plan and is obsessed with immortality.

2. It makes literally no sense that the Zakuulians would build a random temple with the properties of the Temple of Sacrifice on Yavin 4, considering the fact that they were on the edges of the galaxy.

3. Zakuul was in a technologically primitive state before Valkorion's arrival.

Do we have definite evidence that the Zakullians built this temple?

If so, do we have evidence Vitiate became Valkorion at this point outside of Boyd's non canon musing? It only makes sense that Vit became Valk after Revan. The latter's assassination attempt scaring the shit out of him, prompting him to grow more powerful and learn how to transfer his essence into his "voices". This would of course include the body of Valkorion at some point.

-

^^^

Vitiate became Valkorion (after) the events of Revan.

In SWTOR, we interact with Voices of Valkorion. Sith Emperor at this stage is just a mask. Another mask is the Immortal Emperor for the Zakuul.

You can say that Valkorion was wearing two masks at a time; Sith Emperor (for the Sith) and Immortal Emperor (for Zakuulians).

Valkorion is not a Sith lord or even a Sith.