Originally posted by carver9
Mangog outright tells us Odin is weaker.
You think he was weakened to be Odinson level? Below Odinson? Because that is the only way you might have a point.
If not, then Odin is still above Odinson.
Tyson now is weak compared to him in his prime. Doesn't mean he's my level.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And turns into a paste, splatters all over Hulk's chest.You and Rage lick him clean.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I am really trying. Carver, I am really trying to be nice. Sin is right, my behavior can be unbecoming. I am and can be better.
Originally posted by carver9Mangog punched him twice, once in the body, once off panel. The other attack was him slamming Thor into the ground, and an unspecified attack that finished Thor off.
Thor is one of the peeps I am using and yeah, he didnt knock him out but imagine if it was just Thor there facing Hulk. The first punch cracked his skull, a second one probably wouldve killed him. Thor withstood a BEATING from Mangog but the key word here is WITHSTOOD (and was still able to fight afterwards).Immortal Hulk also fought Jane and treated her like fodder. The same Jane admitted she was trying to take Hulk out and she was nothing to him while having help from Hercules. Jane outright stomped Mangog and even achieved knocking his tooth out.
Similar opponents. This doesnt include the rest of the team that was backing Jane and Thor but was still treated as fodder. Taking out durable objects is cute (Hulk almost killed Tony through his armor with a thunder clap and overloaded Vibranium) but I dont think that hold any kind of weight against these two kind of opponents when both of them have done the impossible.
Naturally Pre-Amped Immortal Hulk >>>>>>> Mangog then?
And she did not stomp Mangog at all. She did incredibly well for the last fight she ever had, but she didn't stomp him.
You're contrasting some of the lowest feats of these characters with the highest they've ever been written at that specific period in time. Using the specific comparisons ignoring the surrounding context, Hulk would one shot Mangog, is that what you're arguing?
They don't hold any weight because Hulk didn't do it. Remember how much you freaked out when "Hulk broke something Celestials couldn't"? Among so many other things... my sig is from you saying Hulk broke adamantium for instance. 😬
Regardless, the fact remains that Ult Mjolnir and Destroyer > Thor's skull. Which means it isn't outside the realm of possibility to see Mangog capable of doing the same as Hulk... under a different writer, under different circumstances (random Hulk fight vs the end of Asgard).
FYI, it wasn't Jane who knocked a tooth out.
It was War Volstagg:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11132/111324203/6181627-1.jpg
And we all know what happened to him.
But if we really are doing the comparison dance, contrast Black Panther and his energy attacks with the Mother Storm.
I'm also not saying the Thor feats don't count. It's just that Aaron wrote the Thors incredibly high when Jane was there. It's hard to take her best feats of power and then apply that to every other showing is all. You might as well contrast her Mangog showing with every other showing she had outside Aaron. I'm sure we'll get a lot favorable comparisons against Mangog. Either Mangog is weak as shit, or Aaron had her operating at a higher level not seen outside those issues.
Though it does help that he foddered Destroyer and broke Ult Thor's hammer so he was obviously operating at a high level. Plus he wrote Jane Odin level... and above on that last issue.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Mangog punched him twice, once in the body, once off panel. The other attack was him slamming Thor into the ground, and an unspecified attack that finished Thor off.
Of course he was able to fight afterwards, the Hulk showing was one of the very few times Thor didn't bounce back. He also withstood the Mother Storm that was melting his Uru arm. Naturally one punch from Hulk > Mother Storm/Mangog if you want to compare it like that.Naturally Pre-Amped Immortal Hulk >>>>>>> Mangog then?
And she did not stomp Mangog at all. She did incredibly well for the last fight she ever had, but she didn't stomp him.
You're contrasting some of the lowest feats of these characters with the highest they've ever been written at that specific period in time. Using the specific comparisons ignoring the surrounding context, Hulk would one shot Mangog, is that what you're arguing?They don't hold any weight because Hulk didn't do it. Remember how much you freaked out when "Hulk broke something Celestials couldn't"? Among so many other things... my sig is from you saying Hulk broke adamantium for instance. 😬
Regardless, the fact remains that Ult Mjolnir and Destroyer > Thor's skull. Which means it isn't outside the realm of possibility to see Mangog capable of doing the same as Hulk... under a different writer, under different circumstances (random Hulk fight vs the end of Asgard).
And Hulk punched him once. Even after the shots you mentioned in this post, Thor still had enough power to jump clean out of the sun. He couldnt even move after a single shot from Hulk. I see where you're going with this, trying to dictate high showings vs low showings but this is obviously the wrong way to debate here. I'm using comparative showings and Hulk just comes off better. I wouldnt know how Hulk would perform under Aaron but does that even matter since we have them fighting against the same character with different results?
You're naming what happened in certain books vs a characters power level. Let's look at it like this, DOS Superman got koed by an exploding gas station and in the same book, it took Doomsday an entire comic of pounding on Superman and still lost. If we use what happened in THAT comic as evidence of Doomsday power level (after all, he pounded on Booster Gold who didnt have his shields up and still didnt kill him and he also pounded on Guy who didnt have his shields up), Doomsday isnt even low Herald in strength, BUT, looking at the opponents he fought, it bumps him up past that tier. You're doing the opposite of this. You're naming one ft from one writer and is saying it doesnt apply to the same character under a different writer. No, just no. Imagine the mess this would cause if we looked at everything like this. The only reason Prime and V&V Despero is where they are at is due to how they treated heroes under certain writers. Imagine if we just discredited the characters they defeated fts from them, they would be nothing.
Jane did extremely well against Mangog...FAR better than what she did against Immortal Hulk who brushed her off as if she was nothing and yes, Jane was mentioned as a planet pusher in the same comic.
Sad to say this but Thor handled Mangog hits far better than what the Destroyer and Ult Mjlonir did. It's not like Mangog held back against Thor. Looking at cheese fts, Mangog is impressive but so is Hulk whom Thunder clap almost killed Tony "inside of his suit", almost overloading Vibranium and again, cracking Thor skull. I'm not looking at those type of fts though... I'm looking primarily at fights and Hulk looks more formidable.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Was this shown? I thought he beat Serpent off panelIm always right
At that point he already ran through Cul's hammer guard, heimdall, other Asgardians, and the Destroyer.
Do you want me to go on a little rant here Carver? What are you doing to me guy? I'll try and explain this simple and slow here without stepping on your elation too much.
Basically it boils down to this:
The Thor cracking is something new and fresh and hip for Thor. It's uncharted territory and it's not something you can take and declare that as the new standard for everyone daring to step up to Hulk's level. Otherwise that creates problems (for other people, not you) when you can take that and go:
"Well CelestialsGalactusThanosIGSpider-ManNoAmp never cracked his skull... guess Hulk is the most powerful ever!"
Thor has always been able to get right back up after getting KO'ed. His entire history is the Tubthumping song. When you take something as synonymous away from Thor as that, then it makes you think thoughts that make you think even more thoughts. When people think of Thor, they don't think "Hammer" first; they think he'll rise again like a fukking Phoenix... but not Marvel Phoenix because it sucks.
Of course that works in another way that Hulk was the first one to overload his Chumbawamba Factor, but judging by Thor getting treated the worst out of every Avenger including Cap and Blacked Panther, it doesn't help that train of thought.
So that's those two things, and some of mine and Darksaint's thoughts.
"SUPERMAN"
The difference between them is that the characters you mentioned actually had their histories or arcs play out. We don't know how Devil Hulk is going to turn out yet. It could be a 1 issue powerup, it could be years of Hulk just raping heroes in the anus, we don't know. We didn't get a good measure of him besides creating no-limit fallacies and inconsistent damage among the dudes he fought.
I'm not saying he can't be more powerful than Mangog, just that we haven't seen enough to declare him so yet. And if judge it off the merit of Thor cracking, you can slide that Hulk scale to everyone in Marvel and move Hulk to the top of the mountain, hence my hesitation to use that as a measuring stick.
And of course Thor did better... or kind of did. You can't have the "hero" of the story getting shattered by the big bad about to end the entire "Realm". If you want realism in comics you've come to the wrong place. That however doesn't change the fact that Ult Mjolnir and Destroyer are harder than Thor's bones, no? There's a difference between should and capability. Just because he didn't via plot, that doesn't mean he can't, since there's not a lot of reasons as to why he couldn't.
Basically Mangog crushed two high tiered Adamantium - Destroyer should be above, Ult Mjolnir should be somewhere in the ballpark - level objects. That is a better power feat than cracking Thor's skull even if it's the newest fresh fad of 2018. IE, Mangog has shown the capability to accomplish Hulk's feat, has Immortal Hulk shown the same in that issue?
That's not saying one is drastically above the other as I think it's 2erly2tell for Hulk so far, it's just saying that it isn't as cut and dry as a hero doing better against a villain, than against a previous lover, and moving everything to meet your newest mountaintop you've Carved out for yourself. Among other things I previously stated like Mangog really not hitting Thor too many times and the like, or some Carver related things, the towel system Thor believes in, etc.
Something something something, Superman.
Lol... great read. Seems like you're not up for this debate so the only thing I am going to mention is, I didnt mention one ft as a result of the outcome of this fight, I mentioned numerous...
Here is two Thor level beings being treated like fodder...
Herc hurts his hand punching Hulk and Jane amped hammer strike doesnt even move him from his spot...
Another charged hit doesnt budge him and he casually slaps them away...
Rogue drains some of his power and he still treats them like fodder...
https://plus.google.com/photos/116277202286120869572/album/6538117996222036881/6538118000435381106?authkey=CKDF98Ou--i7Mg&sqid=108416926703338057306&ssid=83576028-7023-4395-8fc8-7898ef162a46
https://plus.google.com/photos/116277202286120869572/album/6538117996222036881/6538118002541716674?authkey=CKDF98Ou--i7Mg&sqid=108416926703338057306&ssid=83576028-7023-4395-8fc8-7898ef162a46
https://plus.google.com/photos/116277202286120869572/album/6538117996222036881/6538118002989850482?authkey=CKDF98Ou--i7Mg&sqid=108416926703338057306&ssid=83576028-7023-4395-8fc8-7898ef162a46
He took them out with a stomp. We dont even see them again after this. Crazy thing is, he has become far more powerful than the showing above. Lol... Hercules and Jane at this point would get their skulls cracked as well. You think I am just basing this primarily off of his fight with Thor... no, I'm not. Also, might as well mention this. The Challenger took on the entire Avengers and was wrecking them, the same issue it was outright mentioned he was dishing out unlimited amounts of power. Wanda had to amp the heroes to defeat him. Hulk damaged this same person in a single hit...
https://img.fireden.net/co/image/1523/45/1523456201778.jpg
https://img.fireden.net/co/image/1523/45/1523456266786.jpg
I'm not saying Hulk is above everyone that Thor has fought but what I am saying is, if anyone said Hulk wins, the evidence is there proving he has the potential to win.
Originally posted by carver9Yeah, no
I'm not saying Hulk is above everyone that Thor has fought but what I am saying is, if anyone said Hulk wins, the evidence is there proving he has the potential to win.
Originally posted by carver9
At this point, physically punching Hulk isnt going to do a thing but make him more powerful. The guy is going to one punch Thor, something even Mangog couldnt achieve. Hulk stomps.
As for the rest, that's already been answered. Your last post almost pretty much moved away from other feats besides Thor's skull... hence me focusing on it. 😂
With that said however, do you need me to explain the difference in Jane Thor and Aaron Jane Thor?
First off, Aaron Thor can be explained as high end Thor, and every other showing can be normal Thor - because I'm not going to call it low end because Aaron wrote her with his boner.
Let's explain the disparity with one contrasting showing:
Normal Jane Thor can't stop a flaming meteor.
Aaron Thor can stop a shooting star... a literal sun being used as a projectile.
And this goes along throughout the entire life of Jane Thor. Yes she has some lows under Aaron, but those lows would be highs for Normal Jane. They were basically two different characters. They were not written the same.
You're doing the same thing as the Thor skull crack here. In that you're moving the range to Hulk's level and making people compare to it and hope they come out well. The difference is, I don't have a showing for Jane in the same vein - as Mangog crushing things - that would compare favorably because anything would just fall under Hulk. She did this but she didn't do THAT to Hulk, look how tough he is, etc.
So we go back to Aaron Thor being written above the norm. You're contrasting her best feat of power with a complete inability to do something. Again, you can simply slide this along to everything she failed to do:
Can't move a meteor but she can beat up Mangog.
We take something you said earlier in her beating up Mangog and compare that to Hulk. She could hurt Mangog but she couldn't make Hulk flinch. That was before Hulk got the double amp. If we take this as absolute then this makes Current Hulk so far beyond everything in Asgard that it's not even a match with all of Asgard vs Hulk. To recap what level Jane was operating at here, she did something that Asgard - the Destroyer Armor (who was previously above Jane and a team of everyone), Odin and Thor (she stalemated both of them), everything War Thor could do (who she stalemated), and Serpent/Sif/Warriors and the Thunder Guard - couldn't do. She was portrayed as beyond everyone and everything in Asgard. What you're doing by that 1 to 1 comparison is ignoring the surrounding context that Mangog was operating at and pretending that Jane was operating at the same level, when it was heavily implied that she was Hercules level. For that matter, even Hercules did better than her against Hulk. According to the Carver scale:
Devil Hulk >> Immortal Hulk > Hercules > Jane > everything in Asgard or any two people in Asgard.
Imagine the beatdown Hercules would have put on Mangog? Woah!
But anyway, I'm not saying Jane could beat up Hulk in raw power, because what it does accomplish is proof that Hulk is certainly above her in raw power if they fought. I can't change that. What I can't do however, is apply all of her best feats to Hulk or pretend she was operating at the same level. There's a reason terms exist like "high feats" afterall.
Not too long ago Thor/Hype were hacking away Beyonders. Imagine the sheer dishonesty required to try and apply that in anyway to another character they fought? I'm not speaking of mentioning high feats in a thread either because that will never change, I'm saying that ChinaHulk > Odinson > Beyonders, and therefore Odinson was operating at those levels against Cho. That's essentially what you're saying here.
To reiterate though, without looking at surrounding context, Hulk cracking Thor's skull > Mangog not. Jane hurting Mangog < not hurting Hulk. I'm not saying the feats don't look better. I'm saying you have to actually look at the context surrounding these feats as it's not that simple. Otherwise you've just solved every fight ever in comics and there is no such thing as high feats, or heroes operating above their norm.
And if you're solely looking at those showings as the deciding factor, you're ignoring that Mangog has beaten tougher foes, and destroyed more durable objects. You're setting aside lots of things to come to those comparisons.
As for Mangog vs Immortal Hulk? 2erly2tell. Hulk hasn't done enough to put him above Mangog, and despite what I've said here, the Thor fights do factor in enough to put Hulk above the Thors by a bit. There's a balance here that isn't quite so cut and dry, but I don't care enough to try and even it out to make sense to me. This isn't a fight where one guy can survive a sun and the other couldn't afterall.
