Originally posted by The.D0minator
solid post OP, agreed with most points
Thanks. I'm a big fan of this RPG system, and when I learned there was a sourcebook coming out with actual stats for all these characters, I felt it was worth sharing with this forum. Starting to second-guess that, since some people apparently refuse to accept something canon because it doesn't line up with their personal points of view.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Lol its less to do with peoples personal wishes, and more to do with blatant contradictions to on screen canon and even director commentary.
Show me these 'blatant contradictions' you claim. The three examples that have come up are subjective, and different people can have different interpretations of what was on screen.
1. Vader's Willpower vs. Maul's. We've already discussed it to death, and since Willpower itself is not something that can be easily measured outside of RPG stats, it's impossible to truly know who would have more between Vader and Maul. Though for gameplay purposes, it makes sense for Vader's to be higher as Willpower is a major factor to using the Force in this game, and Vader's Force feats >>> Maul's.
2. Ahsoka vs. The Inquisitors. I've already made a lengthy post showing exactly how Ahsoka in this game can still stomp the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister in the exact same manner she did in the show, so this is not a contradiction to what we saw on-screen. Just because the game stats them out on roughly the same level, that does not mean that Ahsoka isn't superior to the both of them at the same time. This is the case in nearly all RPG systems. A slight advantage in one or two stats could be enough for a character to stomp two or three characters at the same time who are roughly on the same level.
3. The Grand Inquisitor being an equal to Maul. The only two comparisons we have for Maul and the Grand Inquisitor come from their fights against Kanan (where Maul got tooled in no time, and the GI has consistently flaunted his superiority) and a quote from Dave Filoni in a Rebels Recon while discussing the Inquisitor's lightsaber.
"The lightsaber for the Inquisitor is like a cheat-mode for a lightsaber. It does a lot of things that Maul could do on his own. To have a weapon that cheats those abilities and makes up for a lack of ability in some ways is very representative of who he is."
While this isn't a statement about Force ability, it's the only quote from the creators directly comparing the two, and it tells us what the game stats tell us. Maul>The Grand Inquisitor in lightsaber skill, but the GI pretty much cheats to get on that level. So again, no contradictions.
As for Force powers and the GI being statted as better than Maul in this area, the GI does more frequently employ Force powers in combat than Maul, and we've never been shown the upper limit of the GI's Force powers, so it isn't a contradiction for this book to say his raw power rivals Maul's.
^ Lol Kanan pushed Maul off a cliff, before collapsing to the floor himself from the strain of doing that. The official site itself confirms Maul was not defeated.
So no Maul wasnt easiy tooled by Kanan at all. Maul stalemated Ahsoka, both of whom actually do easily stomp Inquisitors. That in itself puts both of them far above Kanan or the GI.
In fact Filoni outright confirms Ahsoka was never in any real danger against the 2 Inquisitors she beat simultaneously in a relatively short time.
In Force power Maul easily gripping and choking out the 7th Sister is beyond the GI.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Lol Kanan pushed Maul off a cliff, before collapsing to the floor himself from the strain of doing that. The official site itself confirms Maul was not defeated.So no Maul wasnt easiy tooled by Kanan at all. Maul stalemated Ahsoka, both of whom actually do easily stomp Inquisitors. That in itself puts both of them far above Kanan or the GI.
In fact Filoni outright confirms Ahsoka was never in any real danger against the 2 Inquisitors she beat simultaneously in a relatively short time.
In Force power Maul easily gripping and choking out the 7th Sister is beyond the GI.
Kanan didn't collapse from the strain of throwing Maul, he collapsed from the pain of having his eyes and face scorched by a lightsaber strike. I imagine that'd be pretty agonizing, and the fact that he was able to stand up and briefly fight Maul at all speaks volumes to Kanan's resilience. And yes, Maul was not "defeated," in that Maul survived, but he was BFRed for the duration of the episode. That's effectively defeated for the purposes of storytelling. And I'd say taking an opponent out of the fight in a couple seconds, especially by Star Wars standards (where fights typically last several minutes), counts as "tooling" them.
Once more, Maul did not stalemate Ahsoka. This has been debunked over and over. It wasn't a stalemate, they crossed blades for less than 20 seconds, then Ahsoka fled and left a blind man to fight Maul. How is that stalemating? Seriously? Fighting for 20 seconds in Star Wars is barely anything noteworthy, and Ahsoka ran away , as Maul himself points out. That's not a stalemate.
Also, I've already shown how Ahsoka can stomp two Inquisitors at once in this game system, using the game stats. You've yet to address this. Just because they're around the same level, that doesn't mean that Ahsoka isn't statted in a way that lets her stomp the Inquisitors, which she is perfectly capable of. Hence, no contradiction with what we saw on screen. And I wasn't even arguing that Maul can't stomp the Inquisitors. His stats in this game system would easily allow him to take on the Fifth Brother, Seventh Sister, and Eighth Brother at the same time.
And saying the Grand Inquisitor couldn't grip the Seventh Sister is just flat-out false. The Grand Inquisitor did the exact same thing to Kanan when he captured him (not to mention all the times the Grand Inquisitor ragdolled Kanan with the Force), and Kanan is more powerful in the Force than the Seventh Sister, both in this game system and judging by displays of power in the show. If the GI hadn't been ordered to capture Kanan alive, Kanan would have died in almost the exact same manner that the Seventh Sister did.
Lastly, Maul did not "choke out" the Seventh Sister. Choking out implies that he disposed of her by choking her. Maul took her out with a lightsaber throw after gripping her with the Force. The Grand Inquisitor has both displayed the ability to grip other Force sensitives with TK, and has frequently displayed skillful use of the lightsaber throw ability, so he could definitely replicate Darth Maul's feat against the Seventh Sister.
P.S. I just double-checked the official website. The "Maul was not defeated" quote you're thinking of is not referring to the context of the fight. It's referring to the fact that he survived the encounter. Here's what the official website has to say about the fight itself:
Kanan and Maul exchange a quick burst of combat until Kanan gets the upper hand. He grabs Maul by the wrist and hurls him off the side of the platform. He falls, yelling as he descends.
The "Maul has not been defeated" quote is in reference to him finding a TIE fighter to escape with in the epilogue of the episode, not in reference to the fight against Kanan (in which he did clearly lose).
Originally posted by Zenwolf
I'm still disgusted by the way of the treatment of the Inquisitorius in this Disney Canon...yuck.
Personally, I prefer Disney's Inquisitors to the ones in Legends. In the Disney version, not every single Inquisitor can use Force Lightning, which is supposed to be a rare and immensely powerful Force power. In the Disney version, we don't have Inquisitors like Jerec, who can rival Vader in power (per actual Legends sources), which is something that Vader and Sidious would never have allowed. The Legends Inquisitors were far too powerful for what they were meant to be.
Originally posted by Underachiever59
Personally, I prefer Disney's Inquisitors to the ones in Legends. In the Disney version, not every single Inquisitor can use Force Lightning, which is supposed to be a rare and immensely powerful Force power. In the Disney version, we don't have Inquisitors like Jerec, who can rival Vader in power (per actual Legends sources), which is something that Vader and Sidious would never have allowed. The Legends Inquisitors were far too powerful for what they were meant to be.
Well not every Inquisitor in Legends could use Force Lighting either.
That being said, it's more...how they are portrayed as characters really. They seem way too factory set and having no real character or the characterization that they do have is very little. The GI being the only good one.
The Legends Inquisitors had more character to them.
Originally posted by Underachiever59
First off, Ahsoka didn't stalemate Maul. She retreated after 20 seconds and left a blind man to fight Maul.
1. She retreated because she wanted to stop what the empire was doing with the temple
2. The fought for more than a minute(you need to consider time they fought off screen)
3. The fight started with Ahsoka overpowering maul physically and then had Ahsoka drive Maul back
4. The fight took place, on a DS nexus
There's literally no way to argue Maul's supremacy here. But that's not nearly as absurd as your next claim:
Ahsoka, the Fifth Brother, and the Seventh Sister are all around the same level
And if Ahsoka taking her out unarmed isn't enough for ya. Let's see what Feloni has to say:
"Ahsoka was never really in jeopardy, Ahsoka, in that fight"Dave Feloni, The Padawan Lives
You get the idea.
So, let's set up the encounter. First round, Ahsoka goes first, uses the Move power in this game to throw back the Fifth Brother, just like she did in the show. That just leaves the Seventh Sister to attack her during the first round round, which Ahsoka can parry to avoid taking full damage. Second round, Ahsoka takes the Fifth Brother down with a combat check thanks to her Saber Swarm ability. Then the Seventh Sister attacks again, which Ahsoka can yet again parry. Turn 3, Ahsoka throws back the Seventh Sister with Move, disarming her in the process with a lucky roll. Then the GM flips a destiny point ("deus ex machina" the game mechanic) so a ton of Stormtroopers show up and interrupt the fight before Ahsoka can finish off either opponent. Bam, that simple, we just recreated the encounter between the Inquisitors and Ahsoka from Rebels, no problem.
Still doubtful? Let's compare Ahsoka on a nexus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UVJSJOiLk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OLNHU9xBCM
To ezra and Kanan(who have stalemated both the seventh brother and the 5th sister) on even ground:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-jQL-0oxTA
I think we're done here.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Glad to see the Story Group does literally nothing.
Originally posted by Underachiever59Are you mentally retarded?
1. Maul spent 12 years on a junk planet, despite being a powerful Sith Lord. Why didn't he steal the ship that brought him there? Or any subsequent ship that arrived? Choice. For all we know, Maul was on that planet by choice, and you have no evidence to the contrary.1.5 "He's never been in nearly as dire a situation" I'm pretty sure being burned alive after having your limbs cut off by a former best friend, after having strangled your own wife, is a more dire situation than simply being sliced in half.
2. Maul was conscious, yes, but that's not the point. Maul's reconstruction is flat-out not equivalent to Vader's. Maul's reconstruction was specifically meant to restore his mind, Vader's wasn't. Therefore, false equivalency. Stop bringing it up.
3. All of those reasons you point out, Maul being raised from infancy in isolation, and undergoing brutal and traumatic training, are good reasons for why Maul might not have the best Willpower. They're great reasons for why he has a likely fractured psyche, and thus less will than Vader. As for being tortured within an inch of his life, see Vader's reconstruction. Anyone else would have died several times over during that reconstruction. Hours and hours of being operated on, internally and externally, while badly burned across all of his body, and wide awake throughout. Pretty sure that's worse than any torture Maul has ever faced.
4. Maul was begging, begging Palpatine for mercy in The Clone Wars when he lost. Vader has been beaten far more severely several times, both in Legends and Canon, yet we've never once seen Vader beg anyone for anything, much less for mercy (to my knowledge). In a recent Vader comic, his new mechanical body was trashed, and he was badly thrashed by Jedi Master Kirak Infil'a. Did he beg Master Infil'a for mercy? No. He reassembled his body with telekinesis, got right back up, and went to challenge the Jedi Master all over again. That's willpower. Vader has superior Willpower, and you have yet to give a single shred of evidence to the contrary.
I'm done debating this with you. I've said all that I need to say, and if you still disagree, it's clear we're at an impasse and neither will ever convince the other. But at least I have a canon sourcebook on my side to state that Vader's willpower is above Maul's, while you haven't really provided anything to back up your belief that Maul's is above Vader's, beyond a false equivalency of their reconstructions.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Let's set the record straight:1. She retreated because she wanted to stop what the empire was doing with the temple
2. The fought for more than a minute(you need to consider time they fought off screen)
3. The fight started with Ahsoka overpowering maul physically and then had Ahsoka drive Maul back
4. The fight took place, on a DS nexus
There's literally no way to argue Maul's supremacy here. But that's not nearly as absurd as your next claim:
No:
https://youtu.be/W9_v8GtZuv8?t=2m2s
They aren'tAnd if Ahsoka taking her out unarmed isn't enough for ya. Let's see what Feloni has to say:
You get the idea.
If the game mechanics, and yes you are using game mechanics, allow for Ahsoka to stomp the inqusitors, then that's prolly coz Ahsoka is better than the inqusitors.
Still doubtful? Let's compare Ahsoka on a nexus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UVJSJOiLk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OLNHU9xBCMTo ezra and Kanan(who have stalemated both the seventh brother and the 5th sister) on even ground:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-jQL-0oxTAI think we're done here.
I think we can throw out canon sourcebooks as reliable sources.
1. This is a valid point. They never got to properly finish their fight. But it's still a fact that Ahsoka retreated from the fight after 20 seconds and left a recently blinded man to finish the job.
2. Ahsoka blocked Maul's kill-stroke against Kanan and shoved Maul backward. The Maul monologued for a bit, the scene transitioned to Ezra in the temple, and when it transitioned back, Maul was still monologuing. There is no proof that there was fighting between Ahsoka and Maul taking place off-screen. Only after Maul finishes his monologue do we know for a fact that the two were fighting, most of which happens off-screen while Kanan looks for his lightsaber. This lasts a total of 20 seconds before Ahsoka sees Kanan stand up and jumps away. Lasting 20 seconds in a duel in Star Wars =/= stalemating.
3. Yes, Ahsoka physically overpowered Maul at the start of the fight, but from what we see of the duel, the upper hand was exchanged several times. Sometimes she'd be getting overwhelmed, sometimes she'd be pushing him back. The fight choreography doesn't really show us who is better all that well, and extremely little of their 20 second duel took place on-screen anyway. Hardly enough for us to say whether or not the fight was close to even.
4. Yes, it took place on a nexus. Your point? We don't know how much the nexus amped Maul, and so far, the effects of a nexus have appeared to be rather minimal in canon. Also, we've never really seen old Maul fight while off that nexus, aside from his encounter with Kenobi, which was hilariously short.
5. My claim that the Inquisitors and Ahsoka are around the same level does not mean that the Inquisitors equal Ahsoka. Just that they're nearly on the same level. I have also expressed that I believe Ahsoka is above them, and the game stats put her somewhere between the Grand Inquisitor and the other Inquisitors. Yet you seem to have completely glossed over this concession of mine from an earlier post.
As for Ahsoka taking out the Seventh Sister unarmed, you neglect to point out that Ahsoka was not shown to be able to take out the Seventh Sister while armed. The Seventh Sister stalemated Ahsoka in lightsaber combat before being kicked away, and was ultimately taken out with a Force push. It's not like Ahsoka was completely unarmed throughout the entire encounter. She failed to overcome the Seventh Sister purely blade-to-blade, and resorted to her superior discipline and Force power to win.
6. I never claimed Ahsoka isn't better than the Inquisitors. Just the opposite, I have already conceded in a previous post that Ahsoka is better than the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister. I just rightfully pointed out that they are around the same level of ability, per their Force feats in the show, and per game stats.
7. Once again, I have already conceded that Ahsoka is better than the Inquisitors. The game stats have her as marginally better than the Inquisitors. You can still stomp both Inquisitors fairly reliably with Ahsoka using these game stats. That does not mean that Ahsoka is massively above them. They can still all be around the same level while still having Ahsoka above the both of them. Much like Maul during his fight against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Maul was still around the same level of ability as Qui-Gon, yet he was able to beat both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Same with Ahsoka. She's around the same level of ability as the Inquisitors, yet she's able to defeat both at once. These are all points I've already made, and you seem to be deliberately ignoring.
8. You still have yet to show where the game stats contradict canon. I have already shown how you can perfectly recreate what happened on screen with these existing game stats. You have not disproven this. You're just wanting to toss out a canon sourcebook as a valid source because you have a personal bias and want to believe Ahsoka is more capable than she really is.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well not every Inquisitor in Legends could use Force Lighting either.That being said, it's more...how they are portrayed as characters really. They seem way too factory set and having no real character or the characterization that they do have is very little. The GI being the only good one.
The Legends Inquisitors had more character to them.
I feel like the current run of Darth Vader comics is handling the new Inquisitors fairly well. They're starting to have more unique and interesting personalities. Though I will agree that as pure characters, the ones from Legends were better. I attribute this mostly to the fact that Legends Inquisitors showed up in novels more-so than visual media, allowing for a deeper exploration of their characters.
As for Inquisitors using Force Lightning, most of my familiarity with the Inquisitorious in Legends comes from the Coruscant Nights trilogy and Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight. Pretty much every Inquisitor in those have displayed the ability to use Force lightning, which to me was just frankly absurd. Vader leads the Inquisitorious. There's no way he would teach his minions how to use the Force power he is most vulnerable to. And if one did learn how to use Force lightning on their own, odds are Vader would judge them too powerful and strike them down. Why the heck would Vader allow multiple Inquisitors to have an ability powerful enough to allow them to be a legitimate threat to him? Jerec is probably the worst offender of this by far, with some sources around him straight-up claiming that he was preparing for a confrontation with both Vader and the Emperor, and that he had surpassed Vader. Why the heck would Vader and the Emperor (Vader especially) keep this guy around if they know his power is beginning to rival theirs?
Originally posted by Underachiever59
I feel like the current run of Darth Vader comics is handling the new Inquisitors fairly well. They're starting to have more unique and interesting personalities. Though I will agree that as pure characters, the ones from Legends were better. I attribute this mostly to the fact that Legends Inquisitors showed up in novels more-so than visual media, allowing for a deeper exploration of their characters.As for Inquisitors using Force Lightning, most of my familiarity with the Inquisitorious in Legends comes from the Coruscant Nights trilogy and Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight. Pretty much every Inquisitor in those have displayed the ability to use Force lightning, which to me was just frankly absurd. Vader leads the Inquisitorious. There's no way he would teach his minions how to use the Force power he is most vulnerable to. And if one did learn how to use Force lightning on their own, odds are Vader would judge them too powerful and strike them down. Why the heck would Vader allow multiple Inquisitors to have an ability powerful enough to allow them to be a legitimate threat to him? Jerec is probably the worst offender of this by far, with some sources around him straight-up claiming that he was preparing for a confrontation with both Vader and the Emperor, and that he had surpassed Vader. Why the heck would Vader and the Emperor (Vader especially) keep this guy around if they know his power is beginning to rival theirs?
I'm not too sure even on the current Vader run, that one female Inquisitor just acts more like a **** than what one would expect to be an Inquisitor.
I mean it's not like Vader hasn't faced those who had Force Lighting in the form of Dark Jedi and Galen/Starkiller(who would be far more powerful than any Inquisitor) and survived, sure Vader is vulnerable but it's not an immediate I win button and he does have defenses for it.
As far as Jerec goes, Palpatine did limit him and cut him off from knowledge sources(The Dark Side Compendium) when he sensed his ambitions. Jerec was also noted as not being as powerful/strong as Vader, he could rival Vader with his various powers. But Vader would be far stronger still, he also lacks the lightsaber experience compared to Vader too.
Originally posted by Underachiever59
You're just wanting to toss out a canon sourcebook as a valid source because you have a personal bias and want to believe Ahsoka is more capable than she really is.
Only a few works released by Disney fall under that definition of "canon."
Plus, Chee has stated he lets the game makers handle the RPG states and that the Story Group doesn't get involved.
Maul was still around the same level of ability as Qui-Gon, yet he was able to beat both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Same with Ahsoka.
BTW, Jinn is not Maul's level.
I don't feel like getting into a lengthy back and fort so I'll stick to addressing factual errors and disputes over when happened in the source material
1:
But it's still a fact that Ahsoka retreated from the fight after 20 seconds
2:
and when it transitioned back, Maul was still monologuing.
They were fighting when the scene cutback. The monologue only occurred as a result of the weapon interrupting their fight.
3:
Sometimes she'd be getting overwhelmed, sometimes she'd be pushing him back.
I just rewatched the fight. The portion of the fight we get to see has
1. Ahsoka and Maul fighting with Maul getting pushed back.
https://youtu.be/VebE-ZMQ9CQ?t=2m9s
2. Ahsoka using her agility to get around Maul
https://youtu.be/VebE-ZMQ9CQ?t=2m22s
3. Ahsoka push Maul back in a bladelock
https://youtu.be/VebE-ZMQ9CQ?t=2m24s
Where was Ahsoka overwhelmed?