Originally posted by PhilosophíaWasn't he all Doomsdayed out in 175?
In hand to hand? Certainly not. Even Greg Rucka, the biggest Wonder Woman proponent, showed her as overwhelmingly inferior in a physical fight. He broke her wrist by squeezing and KOd her across the solar system - then just hovered above her, until she got up. In any other circumstance, the fight would have been over right there as he would have continue to attack but, luckily for her, he was hallucinating. Or he would have punched her inside the sun, and not towards the Earth. The fight even ended with her removing his mind-control and slashing his neck with a magical item, which he quickly regenerated.And then, we look at For Tomorrow [in his right mind]. He seemed at least one tier above her, and she was armed to the teeth.
And then, we look at a League of One [in his right mind]. She directly says she cannot win, as he casually overpowers her.
And then we look at Wonder Woman 175 [or thereabout]. Even the 2nd biggest Wonder Woman fanboy [or maybe even first], Phil Jimenez, had her so outclassed physically, that she said she was about to die and he was about to break her bracelets in a few blows. Again, she snaps him out of his mind control [this time with the lasso].
And we can go on with the examples.
We can also notice a pattern - every time Superman is not mind-controlled/etc. - and has full control of his abilities, he dominates to a ridiculously casual levelAnd we haven't even gotten to relative portrayals, such as against Doomsday, who broke her hands and Superman ripped him in half. etc.
I don't think there's a single writer who'd show her even having a chance hand to hand [a.k.a. this thread]. I think some of them would keep her competitive with weapons but, in the end, he'd win under almost all of them.
Originally posted by carver9
Before and after rebirth. She just took on and had the advantage against both Darkseid and Grail. Ended with him being on his knees.
I just went and read that arc. I believe you are misconstruing events. It's clear that Darkseid has the overall advantage against Wonder Woman, but she wins by manipulating the energies of the Greek pantheon that Darkseid had absorbed into himself to regain his full power.
DCU continuity is hard to follow. But what is up with Grail? Wasn't she supposed to be more powerful than Wonder Woman at one point? Now she seems less powerful. And what is up with Hippolyta schooling Grail? That shouldn't happen unless in the 'new' continuity Hippy is way more powerful than she used to be, or Grail has dropped quite a few tiers from when she was first introduced.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Wasn't he all Doomsdayed out in 175?
No indication this increased his power. His bestial rage was unleashed and I think the Doomsday-effect may have been a result of that rather than the other way around. Jiminez loved Wonder Woman, but he never struck me as someone pushing for WW > Superman. He credits Superman with dynamic-like power that is truly awesome when unleashed. Some writers don't.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
No indication this increased his power. His bestial rage was unleashed and I think the Doomsday-effect may have been a result of that rather than the other way around. Jiminez loved Wonder Woman, but he never struck me as someone pushing for WW > Superman. He credits Superman with dynamic-like power that is truly awesome when unleashed. Some writers don't.
The official explanation is that she took all his pain and rage from OWAW and focused it all towards Wonder Woman. Plus he also punched through her hand at one stage.
I'm not saying Wonder Woman can beat him, just that that comic was a little different. We were all scared for her.
I liked that issue. I think your take jibes with mine. She was in serious danger, for sure.
Superman has traditionally been more powerful than Wonder Woman, and also more formidable in a fight--even with her skill edge.
Diana doesn't need to be favored over Superman in a fight to be a great hero and do her thing. I think it's a cheap trick when writers try to generate increased interest by pushing the competition with Superman angle. It undermines her in the long run. At the end of the day, when push comes to shove, it's always going to be Superman if you make it a contest. Best to avoid that.
I think I've said it before but Wonder Woman more or less can peck at Superman. She can cause her damage, but she lacks the ability to actually put him to sleep.
I don't think he'd obliterate her unless you go by real high end showings only for him, but I think he'd likely win everytime. Think Hulk vs Hercules. Herc can land his damage but he lacks the ability to actually defeat him. Hulk will always win or look better in their fights.
Superman is an immense strength and durability wall for her. One she cannot overcome without the lasso.
Personally, I think the gap has gotten closer recently, to a point I didn't expect, but Superman vs Wonder Woman should always be Superman with a massive power advantage. Like Mother Russia vs Hit Girl. Just absolutely overwhelming. If he gets serious, he could basically punch through her skull or rip her arms off. Luck, skill, weapons and his mentality is the only reason she lasts so long.
But that's my preference. The lack of editorial constraint lately has definitely allowed some Carver to infect the medium but the historic precedence is still strong.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I just went and read that arc. I believe you are misconstruing events. It's clear that Darkseid has the overall advantage against Wonder Woman, but she wins by manipulating the energies of the Greek pantheon that Darkseid had absorbed into himself to regain his full power.DCU continuity is hard to follow. But what is up with Grail? Wasn't she supposed to be more powerful than Wonder Woman at one point? Now she seems less powerful. And what is up with Hippolyta schooling Grail? That shouldn't happen unless in the 'new' continuity Hippy is way more powerful than she used to be, or Grail has dropped quite a few tiers from when she was first introduced.
Show me any of what you just said about Diana vs Darkseid.
Why is Grail less powerful? Hecause Diana was working her? Maybe Wonder Woman is just that good? Also, Wonder Woman took out Shaggyman. The same Shaggyman that was schooling the entire JLA.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I liked that issue. I think your take jibes with mine. She was in serious danger, for sure.
Superman has traditionally been more powerful than Wonder Woman, and also more formidable in a fight--even with her skill edge.
Diana doesn't need to be favored over Superman in a fight to be a great hero and do her thing. I think it's a cheap trick when writers try to generate increased interest by pushing the competition with Superman angle. It undermines her in the long run. At the end of the day, when push comes to shove, it's always going to be Superman if you make it a contest. Best to avoid that.
Wonder Woman vs Superman who was amped off of unlimited power...
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-1.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-2.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-3.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-4.jpg
He couldnt touch her.
Originally posted by carver9
Also, WW showings recently just looks far better than Supermans.
Originally posted by carver9
Lor Zod (Zod junior) koed him and some say it was a surprise attack. Let's assume it was, Disna was recently hit by a surprise attack from an amped Supergirl and brushed that sh** off and proceeded at punching her face in. Superman can only dream about diana highs after the rebirth.
Superman wasn't koed and oneshotted Lor Zod once he got serious.
Originally posted by Baziemarc123
Diana written properly would demolish superman shit. she also iirc beat god amped supes in n52
Originally posted by carver9
Wonder Woman vs Superman who was amped off of unlimited power...https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-1.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-2.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-3.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-4.jpgHe couldnt touch her.
the amp even made Superman skyfather at the time IIRC and still lost.
sad
Originally posted by carver9
Wonder Woman vs Superman who was amped off of unlimited power...https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-1.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-2.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-3.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/superman-vs-wonder-woman-darkseid-war-4.jpgHe couldnt touch her.
Superman vs Solarman. Superman defeated Solarman while literally dying.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=10738.msg225407#msg225407
Solarman even one punched Diana into submission. Pathetic.
