Obi Wan in TPM-Amped or Hindered

So, it is pretty commonly believed that Obi Wan was amped due to his rage in TPM in the duel against Maul. However, on re reading the sources during Obi Wan's apprentice stages some pretty interesting facts about Obi Wan's character come to light. Namely, his anger and other negative emotions are only described to be hindering him, not empowering or amping him.

Before TPM

But as long as he did not attack in anger, the Force remained strong with him.[U]

Credit: Jedi Apprentice-The Rising Force

Obi-Wan’s anger, his impatience, had been his downfall often enough in the past [U]Bruck hoped to fill his mind with rage and despair so that he would not be open to the Force.

Credit: Jedi Apprentice-The Rising Force

It is important to note that the Jedi Apprentice series was released right after TPM( this novel in fact was released before the movie) and Dave Wolverton has pretty clearly emphasized that his anger and negative emotions only hinder him. It seems logical to conclude that Obi Wan being hindered due to his anger is a theme in SW that they were going for especially when you consider the words of Wolverton himself here:

TF.N: In preparing for Jedi Apprentice #1: The Rising Force, did Lucasfilm give you the full story of Episode I in advance?

D.W.: I got to read Terry Brooks's novelization, and my editor at Scholastic had the screenplay. So if I had questions, I was free to ask him. The hardest part about working from the novelization was trying to figure out what characters looked like. Early on, I had no idea what a Dug looked like, or a Gungan, or Watto. At one point, Lucas said that in Star Wars, he was really making a "silent film" with just enough dialog tags to let you know what's happening. So for many of the characters, we learn most about them from nonverbal cues, from visual cues. Because of that, some fairly major characters really don't have a lot of lines, so you're left as a writer trying to imagine that character's personality. That's the real challenge.

TF.N: What guidance did Lucasfilm give you in writing Jedi Apprentice #1: The Rising Force? Was there anything you weren't allowed to do?

D.W.: Actually, I was allowed to do pretty much what I wanted. In Episode 1 you get a sense that Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan have a very close relationship. I wanted to create a tail that showed how that relationship developed, so I started out with Qui-Gon being very cold to Obi-Wan. My editors at Lucasfilm were afraid that the relationship was too cold, so we warmed it up.

TF.N: What did you change about the characters? The relationship?

D.W.: Not really very much. I cut a few sentences where Qui-Gon sort of wondered about how whether he'd ever be able to take on another apprentice, and I had Obi-Wan's training go a bit easier.

Credit: http://www.theforce.net/jedicouncil/interview/wolverton.asp

As we can see, while Dave did have flexibility, Lucasfilm edited and scanned the novel pretty thoroughly, to the point where they were able to make subjective judgments on the coldness of a character to other character. Obviously since the novel released before the movie, the editing would have to be pretty strict( not in the usual sense, but strict in the sense that they would stay true to the character) here. Dave also states that he read the novel and had access to the screenplay, and so Obi Wan's anger hindering him is indeed a theme that they would have been going for particularly when you consider the main novel where his emotions have outright been stated to hinder him, seen later here.

His mind had been too clouded by anger. He needed to get clear. It was their only hope. He drew on the living Force to guide him.

Credit: Jedi Apprentice-The Dark Rival

Boiling anger blurred his vision. He hated Bruck as he had hated no living creature. Anger drove out the Force completely, leaving him in a vacuum that he filled with his rage.

Credit: Jedi Apprentice-The Captive Temple

Frustration and irritation surged inside him, driving out his connection to the Force.

Credit: Jedi Apprentice-The Fight for Truth

The later books in the Jedi Apprentice series too emphasize that Obi Wan's anger only hinders him and diminishes his connection to the force.

In the Duel with Maul

Obi Wan tried to use his grief at the loss of his Master, Qui Gon Jinn to fuel his own attack. However, it is not the Jedi way to act on emotions or to seek revenge. This causes the Jedi to lose focus, which can have disastrous consequences in battle.

Obi Wan's anger led him to lose his cool, as he launched a vicious assault against Darth Maul. The Sith took advantage of Obi Wan's unfocused rage, using the Force push to throw him over an abyss.

Credit: Star Wars-The Sith Wars

This clearly states that he "tried" to use his grief to fuel his attack. The remaining statements make it clear that not only was he unsuccessful, his negative emotions only hindered him.

I gave in to my anger, Master.

....

And almost defeated you your anger did.

Credit: Episode 1-Obi Wan Kenobi

Yoda too states that his own anger nearly defeated him, a statement Obi Wan does not disagree with.

The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow.

Never! he swore furiously.

Qui-Gon's words came back to him. Don't center on your fears. Concentrate on the here and now. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan. Be strong.

Credit: The Phantom Menace

Probably one of the biggest pieces of evidence here, his hindrance is made explicit in the novel itself when it states that his emotions were "bearing him down". More interesting however, is the statement that his emotions were "warring" within. This indicates that there was inner conflict and turmoil within him, a pretty sure indicator of an impeded performance.

This is not surprising because we see four emotions that he struggles with in the duel:

Fear

Anger

Grief

Frustration

He is experiencing all of these emotions at once. I am pretty sure that most people, especially Jedi, will be hindered due to experiencing just one of these emotions( with the possible exception of anger, but we know that even just anger hinders Obi Wan here), let alone a huge turmoil of all four inside at once.

After TPM

Let us see what happens in his next encounter with Maul:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufGInoX0mzw

At 3:38. After Obi Wan gives in to his rage, he is pretty soundly beaten by Maul to the point where you can almost call it a stomp. But why? After all, before that he was doing pretty well against Maul, to the point where you could say that he was winning.

The answer is given by Maul himself here:

Your rage has unbalanced you. That is not the Jedi way, is it?

What is more interesting however, is what Maul says to make him unbalanced:

Your master, Qui-Gon Jinn, I gutted him, while you stood helpless and watched. How did that make you feel, Obi-Wan?

In other words Obi Wan is feeling the same emotions here that he felt on Naboo.

We can clearly contrast his performance here, since he is obviously hindered to a great deal after Maul unbalances him, almost getting stomped by Maul.

Likewise, the very same emotions should hinder him on Naboo as well.

We have the Jedi Apprentice series pretty clearly establishing that Obi Wan is hindered when he gives in to his anger. We have the main novel, and the comic stating that his anger hindered him and we have a source from 2013 also stating that he was hindered in TPM. We then have Obi Wan's encounter with Maul when he is a Jedi Master and him being hindered again when he gives in to his rage.

So, we have a series of consistent sources, spanning decades in Obi Wan's career stating that he is hindered before, during and after TPM whenever he gives in to his rage. I think that that provides sufficient grounds to declare him hindered during TPM.

Lastly, the argument that since Vader and Luke gave in to their anger and were empowered( and the usual stuff about anger being a quick way to power) so it must mean that Obi Wan too was empowered does not fly at all. Obi Wan was experiencing a turmoil of emotions within, not just anger so there are really no parallels between him and other Jedi who were indeed empowered by their anger alone. This is letting aside the fact that different people have different temperaments and are empowered and hindered by different things.

Also, it is not uncommon for Jedi to be hindered by their distress or grief as seen with Mace here:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/emperordmb/blog/mace-windus-lightsaber-duels-analysis-thread/127977/

The mental condition of Obi Wan was in a much bigger turmoil than that of Mace here, again, because he was experiencing a wide variety of emotions which were all "warring" within him.

Thoughts on this one?

Can't think of any counters, but...wouldn't this make him more powerful than Qui-Gon? And he couldn't defeat Maul back when both him and his master were going at it, but when he was alone, he started to do much better.

^ Bingo.

Whether it was an anger amp or not, he clearly performed far better in his final fight.

Either way he still lost the Saber duel, and required Qui-Gons weapon (I.e. his presence) to defeat Maul.

There are several reasons why he would perform "better" than Qui Gon, while still remaining solidly inferior to Maul:

1. He is younger and has significantly better stamina, a key advantage, because Qui Gon's flagging stamina was one of his most major problems against Maul

2. He is faster than Qui Gon, again, another key advantage

3. He was fighting aggressively against Maul, far more aggressively than Qui Gon. This is pertinent, because Ataru has the worst defense of all the 7 forms and works best for offensive styles. Because Obi Wan gave in to his anger and started fighting aggressively it benefited him pretty highly, more than it would for normal Jedi.

4. He has comparable technical skill and comparable raw power as Qui Gon, even at this stage. Easily understood, when he is capable of being loosely comparable to the Jedi Master at the age of 17. That and his superiority to Plo Koon as of TPM.

Which is why he was able to, in a loose sense, match Maul in the more raw aspects of combat, but was pretty thoroughly outclassed when it came to technical refinement or skill.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Can't think of any counters, but...wouldn't this make him more powerful than Qui-Gon? And he couldn't defeat Maul back when both him and his master were going at it, but when he was alone, he started to do much better.

Already addressed the Qui Gon part.

The team collectively was fighting as a near equal to Maul, and Obi Wan lost to Maul in less than 50 seconds so I don't really get your second point.

That aside, Obi Wan actually lost to Maul quicker than Qui Gon did, so really, there is nothing contradictory here at all.

Given that Force rage makes one to lose their mind(as Dark Side novice) It is obvious why is that. Having no experience with the Dark Side, of course it would hinder his abilities in the Light Side.

In the TPM novelization, a point is made of how Kenobi is actually calming down and re-centering himself while he was hanging in the melting pit. Prior to that he was filled with anger/rage, which made him sloppy and allowed Maul to gain the upperhand. Only when Kenobi regrouped/realigned with the Force was he able to finish Maul:

Eyes fixed on the Sith Lord, Obi-Wan Kenobi went deep inside himself, connecting with the Force he had worked so hard to understand. Calming himself, stilling the trembling of his heart, and banishing his anger and fear, he called upon the last of his reserves. With clarity of purpose and strength of heart, he launched himself away from the side of the pit and catapulted back toward its lip. Imbued with the power of the Force, he cleared the rim easily, somersaulting behind the Sith Lord in a single smooth, powerful motion. Even as he landed, he was drawing Qui-Gon Jinn's fallen lightsaber to his outstretched hand.

Darth Maul whirled to confront him, shock and rage twisting his red and black face. But before he could act to save himself, Qui-Gon's lightsaber slashed through his chest, burning him with killing fire. The stricken Sith Lord howled in pain and disbelief.

-TPM

With that in mind, I don't think Kenobi's abilities were necessarily 'hindered' by the dark sided emotions he was experiencing -- I think they just made him careless. In that moment the emotions were controlling him... He was not controlling the emotions.

Upped his offense, downed his defense

Originally posted by Galan007
In the TPM novelization, a point is made of how Kenobi is actually calming down and re-centering himself while he was hanging in the melting pit. Prior to that he was filled with anger/rage, which made him sloppy and allowed Maul to gain the upperhand. Only when Kenobi regrouped/realigned with the Force was he able to finish Maul:

With that in mind, I don't think Kenobi's abilities were necessarily 'hindered' by the dark sided emotions he was experiencing -- I think they just made him careless. In that moment the emotions were controlling him... He was not controlling the emotions.

Yeah, but what about the several quotes directly stating that his anger reduces his connection to the force?

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Yeah, but what about the several quotes directly stating that his anger reduces his connection to the force?

Generally that may be true. But in that case it Clearly and Visibly improved his performance. We literally see an improved performance.

However 10+ years later when he faces Maul again right after his resurrection, Maul induced anger in him which Clearly and Visibly hindered his performance.

Again, how did it clearly and visibly improve his performance?

I have already given the reasons why he should perform "better" than Qui Gon, and the fact of the matter is that he performed worse, lasting for a significantly lesser amount of time. Despite the fact that base Obi Wan is nearly equal to base Qui Gon.

That aside, the novel already states that his emotions were hindering him. His both future and past version are hindered by their anger. That and he actually performs considerably worse than Qui Gon( the only reprieve that he slashes Maul's saberstaff in two can easily be explained by his extremely aggressive Ataru which naturally benefits the form).

Not really seeing any contradiction here.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Generally that may be true. But in that case it Clearly and Visibly improved his performance. We literally see an improved performance.

However 10+ years later when he faces Maul again right after his resurrection, Maul induced anger in him which Clearly and Visibly hindered his performance.

Were you on Battlefront 2 the other day? Cause yesterday I gunned down a Darth Thor.

Originally posted by Galan007
In the TPM novelization, a point is made of how Kenobi is actually calming down and re-centering himself while he was hanging in the melting pit. Prior to that he was filled with anger/rage, which made him sloppy and allowed Maul to gain the upperhand. Only when Kenobi regrouped/realigned with the Force was he able to finish Maul:

With that in mind, I don't think Kenobi's abilities were necessarily 'hindered' by the dark sided emotions he was experiencing -- I think they just made him careless. In that moment the emotions were controlling him... He was not controlling the emotions.

So, we agree?

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Yeah, but what about the several quotes directly stating that his anger reduces his connection to the force?

Abandoning any pretense of observing even the slightest caution, he barreled into Darth Maul with such fury that he almost knocked both of them off the ledge and into the abyss. He struck at the Sith Lord with his lightsaber as if his own safety meant nothing, lost in a red haze of rage and frustration, consumed by his grief for Qui-Gon and his failure to prevent his friend's fall.

The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, and pressed all the way back to the far wall of the melting pit. There he struggled to keep the young Jedi at bay, trying to open enough space between them to defend himself. Lightsabers scraped and grated against each other, and the chamber echoed with their fury. Lunging and twisting, Darth Maul regained the offensive and counterattacked, using both ends of his lightsaber in an effort to cut Obi-Wan's legs out from under him. But Obi-Wan, while not so experienced as Qui-Gon, was quicker. Anticipating each blow, he was able to elude his antagonist's efforts to bring him down.

-TPM

This is also worth mentioning:
"[Maul] fights with inhuman intensity, fueled by the hateful energy of the dark side of the Force [...] Obi-Wan faces the temptation to draw on the same terrible strength in order to defeat his enemy.":
https://i.imgur.com/0EpFcmX.jpg
-Episode I: Visual Dictionary

As mentioned, I do not believe the implication of that particular scene was for Kenobi's powers to necessarily be 'hindered' by said emotions -- I think they just made him careless/sloppy.

Is it possible to get authorial confirmation for this?

Actually we have one from Filoni where he does say that this stuff is not empowering for Obi Wan. Not sure if he has the authority for making such statements though.

Quite the contrary, actually:

That is Obi Wan's initial aggressiveness working to his benefit. Both because Maul was caught off guard and because Ataru is optimized by more aggressiveness here.

This is also worth mentioning:

Isn't this addressed by the first quote I posted for TPM , which also states that he only "tried" to do the same thing, use his grief to fuel his own attack? Evidently, as per the quote, he wasn't successful.

And then there's his emotions "bearing him down" which can't be referring to him being careless more so when we consider the context.

The way I see it-Obi Wan's ultra aggressiveness is particularly effective against Maul in the starting portions of the duel, especially when he slashes Maul's saberstaff in half, giving the impression that he Is indeed empowered. In a sense that is true, given the way Ataru works, being more aggressive will indeed benefit him more.

For me, 4 things clearly indicate that it is the intent that Obi Wan was hindered in even TPM:

1. The quote from the main novel which can't be referring to him being careless

2. The fact that as an influence, his emotions are stated to be a hindering influence, not an empowering one, even for TPM.

3. The fact that the "exact same" emotions and mental state clearly drawn out by Maul, hindered him 10 years later

4. The fact that Dave Wolverton, reading only the main novel and the screenplay as a secondary source, concluded that Obi Wan's anger hindered him and reduced his connection to the force. Something he emphasized and since it eventually came out, is canonical.

With that, I will very promptly point out that the only place in TPM that it is directly stated that Obi Wan's emotions hinder him, is the quote I posted.

So, "bearing him down" cannot possibly be referring to anything other than him being hindered. That is the conclusion we have to come to anyways, because the context of the quote also makes it evident that it is not referring to carelessness but him actually weakening gradually. His emotions actually playing a part in weakening him, aside from him getting physically tired.

With that I conclude my argumentation here. You guys make of it what you will. If you are still not convinced, no issues here.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Again, how did it clearly and visibly improve his performance?

Did you like, miss the whole fight earlier where he was fighting alongside Qui-Gon but got left behind?

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight

I have already given the reasons why he should perform "better" than Qui Gon, and the fact of the matter is that he performed worse, lasting for a significantly lesser amount of time. Despite the fact that base Obi Wan is nearly equal to base Qui Gon.

Again did you miss the whole rest of the fight. Qui-Gon wa performing far better earlier, given Obi-Wan got completely knocked out of the fight. He simply couldnt keep up earlier.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Were you on Battlefront 2 the other day? Cause yesterday I gunned down a Darth Thor.

Nah. Not me.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Did you like, miss the whole fight earlier where he was fighting alongside Qui-Gon but got left behind?

Again did you miss the whole rest of the fight. Qui-Gon wa performing far better earlier, given Obi-Wan got completely knocked out of the fight. He simply couldnt keep up earlier.

Nah. Not me.

Maul landing a singular kick on him, from a catwalk at that, that knocked him off the platform entirely which is why he was knocked out of the fight, is on a completely different universe than Obi Wan actually not being able to "keep up" at all.

As per that logic, had the fight started on the catwalk, Qui Gon would have been stomped, since he would be knocked off the platform within the first few seconds of the fight.

Per the movie, he was keeping up just fine. In fact, check out the first section of the fight, before they move to the catwalk entirely. "Obi Wan was doing at least just as well as Qui Gon" there( both in terms of visible fighting, and in terms of the number of times Maul threw either of them off). And even on the catwalk, we don't know anything, other than Maul landing a kick on Obi Wan since the scene shifts directly to the fight there.

If Obi Wan getting kicked off the platform=your definition of not being able to keep up and evidence that he was performing "far worse" than Qui Gon even now, then we will simply have to agree to disagree.

I know I said I wouldn't comment but this was an obvious loose end I had to tie up.

Yeah he was keeping up just fine before he was sent flying uncontrollably off the catwalk.

Stop making excuses. There was a reason he was kicked off and not Qui-Gon.