Originally posted by Enzeru
I still don't quite understand how your collateral damage on Earth argument factors into this particular discussion. It feels like we're talking past each other.
There's nothing complicated to get. Sentry's collateral damage isn't an indicator of his power level. Less so on Earth. Even less so under super consistent Pak.
You keep bringing it up, which is why it factors into this particular discussion. You bring it up in this post, you bring it up here:
Originally posted by Enzeru
Sentry is mentally ill and has days, which are worse than others. That's typical for people with certain mental illnesses. Sentrys bio states that when his mental states wavers, he becomes easier to defeat.In comics we've also seen Sentry dealing with some serious issues and in fights underperforming. In WORLD WAR HULK he was so anxious, that he couldn't leave his house for few days. When he had no choice but to engage the fight, his power output wasn't as impressive as during other showings. His energies spread over a couple of city blocks.
In NEW AVENGERS during the 'Collective' storyline he was also anxious and unsure, but when Captain America called for him, Sentry entered the fight, took the opponent into space and as the side effect of their fight a nearby moon got destroyed.
In THUNDERBOLTS Sentry didn't seem to struggle all too much. He didn't want to fight Photon on Earth, because he knew it would devastate the planet. Photon then teleported them into the Microverse, where the two of them engaged. Their escaping energies were not only destroying planets, but they were visible in the regular plane of existence. And you have to keep in mind that in the Microverse atoms have the size of planets.
In UNCANNY AVENGERS Sentry was affected by the Death Seed, which unlocked his potential. He was performing at his -until then and until now- absolute best. His power and strength mirrored the combined power of over a 100 heroes (including power houses like Blue Marvel, Hyperion, Captain Britain, Hulk and so on).
So when we talk about a stable Sentry, we talk about someone, who would bitchslap the WORLD WAR HULK version of the Sentry into oblivion.
It seems like it's something you can't get past when it happens all the time in comics. No greater example than Pak's last arc on that subject.
What I'm saying is that whether Sentry was weakened or not has no bearing on how much his power spread out, or how many planets didn't get destroyed. Collateral damage. Not a great indicator of where someone is operating.
Originally posted by Enzeru
My argument is that -looking past different writing styles / art styles / varying collateral damage portrayals- WW Hulk Sentry (mentally unstable and depowered) might have been able to destroy the Earth, but it would have taken him quite a while. His energy output was far more localized and was slowing growing and spreading out. At the same time during other instances Sentry (mentally more stable) immediately went on to leave the Earth in order to avoid causing any destruction. In space / the microverse his escaping energies were covering a much larger area.
And that goes hand in hand to the Sentry overall having less power during a weak mental state.
And you still can't see why me talking about collateral damage wouldn't be relevant to what you're saying? What you are currently saying in this post is that his lack of spread strongly covered him being weakened. Hence why collateral damage is very relevant.
We've seen the exact same thing happen within two issues in the post you just quoted under the same writer. Where Hulk couldn't fully unleash his powers on Earth for fear of breaking the Earth (Pak even mocked the people who questioned it that arc), and then the next comic/same comic Hulk gets a massive upgrade and 4 of those levels of beings fighting each other while not holding back because they thought they were in the Dark Dimension were causing no collateral damage and were only an eventual threat to the planet. A lesser Hulk shattered a planet with the shockwave of a punch a ways above the planet. A way more powerful Hulk along with an equally powerful being stomped an amped Foom directly into the planet.
Sentry caused more damage than 4 WB plus Hulk level beings to the surrounding area under the same writer. But did less damage than a footstep from holding back WB Hulk. Under the same writer. You can't find consistency under one writer. Why would you expect that to tell the story over years under different writers?
That light show on its own was inconsistent with the rest of his portrayals as well. Surely Deathry, Dr Strange Sentry, and Voidtry from Siege were outputting more power than Photontry at the time, yet they did almost nothing to anything in the immediate area (besides the planet shaking punch). It was a different release of power to be sure, one seemingly unique to that portrayal.
Even the Collective fight which may or may not have destroyed a moon, had a rematch right by Earth and the Moon where the Collective was blindly lashing out with powers (and adapting as time went on) and the fight destroyed a satellite because Iron Man was flung into it.
Another one I just remembered because of the front page. MoD could destroy universes. Yet him and Clyde were throwing power and abstracts at each other and couldn't even destroy a room. Hell, he got hit with a temperature on which time and space breaks down and it still didn't instantly vaporize the whole building. This is the type of shit you deal with when you try to limit powers based on collateral damage. It is wildly inconsistent. Maybe one of the most inconsistent things in comics. Past the point of destroying something (planet, moon, sun), you really don't have to repeat it ever again to show you could. But that's just my thoughts.
Originally posted by Enzeru
And you bring in collateral damage, even though it's really just a side aspect of the bigger discussion at hand.Also, you kinda are discussing if Sentry was weakened or not, since you're saying, that whatever happened during WW Hulk wouldn't reflect his damage output in a weakened state anyway. While at the same time, he had lost control over his power entirely and it was just oozing out of him and destroying the environment. Now [b]obviously
the Earth is protected by the plot, like you've said it... but what I'm saying is, that the plot had Sentry being depowered and operating on a smaller scale in the first place. [/B]
That'd be again, like in the main example being used, saying that Hulk was depowered even though a WB Hulk absorbed a bunch of gamma bombs and grew to a great height because the plot called for him operating on a lesser scale. I don't know if I can make it more clear than that. It's very similar to say the least. Only it happens in the same issue under the same writer.
I'm only discussing the matter of "collateral damage shows he was weakened", not him actually being weakened as that's a messy subject to be sure. I don't think his scale should factor into that. If the main point in this thread was that he was weakened because it said he was weakened, good for that. But the main point in this thread is that he was weakened because he burned 200 buildings instead of 20000, and hence why it's relevant.
Originally posted by Enzeru
Tell me what you think about Sentrys power level and damage output in general. Because right now I don't really know what I'm discussing, other than apparently not being allowed to take anything that happens on Earth into count due to collateral damage restrictions.
If you're saying, that WW Hulk fighting WW Sentry on a different planet and that planet being destroyed, wouldn't have been out of the question... and hence making an unstable Sentry still a planet buster (but potentially not that much weaker than a stable Sentry)... then sure, why not. I'll take it.
His power was good. It wasn't his best feat, but it was above all the other heroes at the time. He can do better, but what he did was incredible anyway. He pretty much stalemated the most powerful Hulk outside of WB in raw power, it's nothing to sneeze at.
Pak probably would have written that fight to destroy a planet in another environment. We know a lesser Hulk is above many confirmed planet busters. Both of those characters on their own can destroy planets. We don't need to see that shit every fight. It limits the story. Sentry could break a window or a city in a fight and neither would have any bearing on the output he was using. As long as they have that feat or a couple in their back pocket, they don't have to do it every fight to show they're serious. Sentry could release all his power and burn a couple paper cups in a 10 foot radius in a fight against Odin and I wouldn't give 2 shits about the release of power. It's just a different portrayal.
Can you imagine how awful comics would be if every fight had to be a massively scale fight and no one could fight seriously on Earth because of it? Hell, a confident Sentry recently sucker punched Void in the face in a pissed off state and did ****ing nothing to the environment. That Void, which I'm sure you know was operating at a very high level. Yet no damage to the area was necessary to subdue him.
All I'm saying is that collateral damage is no indication of what level he was operating at. Simple. You want to say he had agoraphobia and was therefore weakened? Much better.
Using different writers spread out over a few years in different areas do not speak of how much scale effects his power levels. Especially Pak when his shit is wildly inconsistent in the first place on that aspect. Hell, that release of power on its own was exclusive to Pak and not relevant to whatever other sort of energy Sentry used to destroy moons and planets (shockwaves?). It's just different is all, but on its own, in no way an indicator of powers.
