Darth Traya (lazybones) vs Darth Malgus (slayne)

Darth Traya, the Lord of Betrayal (represented by lazybones)

Darth Malgus, False Emperor (represented by slayne)

Rules:
[list][*]Darth Traya as of Knights of the Old Republic II, Darth Malgus as of The Old Republic. Primes for both.
[*]20m apart, Legends incarnations.
[*]Battle takes place on the fields of Lothal.
[*]TSLRCM admissible.
[*]Part of a small SW tournament. Method of deciding victor will be more fully fleshed out later.
[*]It has been decided that slayne will be posting the opener.
[*]As this is a 1v1 debate, it would be appreciated if spectators could keep comments to an absolute minimum.
[/list]

Looking forward to this.

In this fight depends the environment very much.

-

Malgus wins.

My case for him in the opener will revolve mainly around his confrontation with the strike team in the False Emperor flashpoint, but more feats will naturally be presented as the debate progresses.

With that said, let’s take a look at how he performs during the fight:

(Credit to Nova’s RT for the scans)

Before the battle, he unleashes a blast of lightning which sends the strike team to their knees. Now, we can interpret this feat two ways: either he completely overpowers the defences of the strike team with a single attack, or he unleashes it so quickly that they couldn’t have reacted if their lives depended on it, as they were looking straight at him. It’s a damn good showing either way, and it really helps you get a picture of just how far Malgus is above his opponents.

He performs something nearly identical to this a few seconds later, when he finally leaps down from his throne to initiate the fight:

The fact that he manages to do this a second time around - where the team would’ve been prepared for any further attacks - strongly suggests that he simply blew through their defenses with slight effort.

He also telekinetically dominates the team multiple times during the fight itself, utterly overwhelming whatever defences they had and choking all but one member, whom he then duels one-on-one:

This gets to the point where the only avenue the team could’ve taken to win is to cheapshot him with a Rakatan grenade, or otherwise shove him Palpatine-style down the reactor shaft (he stops taking damage at a certain point, indicating they couldn’t kill him any other way). I know that this was later patched so that you could simply kill him like any other dungeon boss, but that seems to be for gameplay purposes rather than any real change in the continuity.

With that, I think it’s quite clear that Malgus is superior to the strike team. So why bring it up?

Well, Foundry Revan faced a much weaker version of this strike team earlier in the game. The fact that the team managed to mortally wound him in fair combat suggests that they were more powerful than he was at the time. But there’s an interesting part to the Revan fight which is definitely worth bringing up. Once he hits a certain stage, this quote will appear in bright red letters over the screen:

Revan has become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of.

-- Star Wars: The Old Republic

I understand that you might have some doubts over the validity of the quote, but in my view, this isn’t any different than a quote from the codex: both are third-person objective statements made in-game; the difference being, of course, the format in which they are presented.

The message here is clear: Revan is, at this point, more powerful than any Jedi to come before him, including Meetra Surik - the Jedi who defeated the version of Traya being used in this debate on an insanely powerful dark side nexus. And the strike team was still superior to that.

So it should come as no surprise that Malgus, someone who completely cucked a far stronger version of this strike team on multiple occasions, would be substantially more powerful than Surik - and therefore comfortably out of Traya’s league. 👆

To summarize:
[list]
[*]Malgus is substantially superior to the strike team.

[*]A weaker version of this same strike team defeats a version of Revan who became “far more powerful than any Jedi ever dreamed of.” This includes Surik, who defeated Traya on a DS nexus.

[*]Therefore, Malgus > Foundry Revan >> Surik >>> Traya.
[/list]

Ball’s in your court.

Nice. Will formulate my response within next few days.

Decent post 👆

Originally posted by Azronger
Decent post 👆

Wait, you use people's respect threads in this?

Originally posted by slayne
Before the battle, he unleashes a blast of lightning which sends the strike team to their knees. Now, we can interpret this feat two ways: either he completely overpowers the defences of the strike team with a single attack, or he unleashes it so quickly that they couldn't have reacted if their lives depended on it, as they were looking straight at him. It's a damn good showing either way, and it really helps you get a picture of just how far Malgus is above his opponents.
__
The fact that he manages to do this a second time around - where the team would've been prepared for any further attacks - strongly suggests that he simply blew through their defenses with slight effort.

What's more, despite praising Malgus' abilities and determination, the HoT notes that Malgus was in a state of 'desperation', which suggests that he was ultimately outmatched quite badly. This remains the case whether the HoT fights Malgus individually or takes more team members.

He also telekinetically dominates the team multiple times during the fight itself, utterly overwhelming whatever defences they had and choking all but one member, whom he then duels one-on-one:

This gets to the point where the only avenue the team could've taken to win is to cheapshot him with a Rakatan grenade, or otherwise shove him Palpatine-style down the reactor shaft (he stops taking damage at a certain point, indicating they couldn't kill him any other way). I know that this was later patched so that you could simply kill him like any other dungeon boss, but that seems to be for gameplay purposes rather than any real change in the continuity.

With that, I think it's quite clear that Malgus is superior to the strike team. So why bring it up?

Well, Foundry Revan faced a much weaker version of this strike team earlier in the game. The fact that the team managed to mortally wound him in fair combat suggests that they were more powerful than he was at the time. But there's an interesting part to the Revan fight which is definitely worth bringing up. Once he hits a certain stage, this quote will appear in bright red letters over the screen.

I understand that you might have some doubts over the validity of the quote, but in my view, this isn't any different than a quote from the codex: both are third-person objective statements made in-game; the difference being, of course, the format in which they are presented.

The message here is clear: Revan is, at this point, more powerful than any Jedi to come before him, including Meetra Surik - the Jedi who defeated the version of Traya being used in this debate on an insanely powerful dark side nexus. And the strike team was still superior to that.

...

Malgus > Foundry Revan >> Surik >>> Traya.

So to sum up, the reasoning for Malgus here are flawed in two main ways:

[list][*]It is assumed that Malgus must be superior to the strike team either collectively or individually on the basis of surprise attacks and game mechanics that are utterly inconsistent and cannot be reliably applied in these debates. The fact that the strike team would have been exhausted after fighting through hordes of 'endless' enemies is not discussed, nor is the fact that Malgus was actually described as in a state of 'desperation' during the battle, implying he was sorely outmatched.
[*] It is assumed that the strike team that defeated Foundry Revan done so due to a legitimate power advantage rather than the exploitation of incredibly advantageous circumstances in their favour. Notably, that Revan was mentally broken and had just emerged from 300 years of torture, draining and mind****ing from Vitiate and the Dread Masters. The fact that Malgus lauds the Sith who defeated Revan as the only ones who could do so puts a massive spanner in the works of this scaling also.
[/list]
(cont…)

(cont...)

Now what is my case for Traya winning? Well, one massive point in Traya's favour is the fact that she actually scales from early Nihilus. The evidence for this is stronger than you may think. Firstly, Traya is said to be by sources the 'most senior' of the Triumvirate. This is not referring to age or experience, as Sion is actually older than Traya and fought the Jedi for many more decades as a marauder in Kun's empire. Furthermore, it is said that the Sith in this era worked their way to the top by the lightsaber blade, which would not be referring to solely lightsaber skills as the Sith would obviously employ their force powers in these lethal contests, and also retcons a loading screen attributing Traya's rise to her manipulation.

Three lords stood above all others: Darth Nihilus ... Darth Sion ... and Darth Traya ... Darth Traya was the most senior of the three, but when Sion and Nihilus united against her, she fled Malachor Five and took the name Kreia.
Source: Star Wars the Old Republic Codex - Galactic History 78

The victory is temporary, however. Fifty years of betrayals, defections and death have dwindled the Jedi spirits and numbers. Meanwhile, Sith survivors wage civil war, culling the weak and electing leadership by the lightsaber's blade.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic Saga Edition Campaign Guide

So it can be inferred that Traya was the most formidable member of the Triumvirate at the time of her fall. And of course, this is hardly far-fetched as the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith is typically the most powerful anyhow. That is, unless their apprentice is more powerful. However, we happen to know that Nihilus is not more powerful than Traya at this time, because sources say that he had to team up with Sion. What's more, despite having her distracted and intending to kill her, Nihilus was unable to do so in their showdown in the Trayus Core. In fact, Sion and Nihilus drained her together, yet they were still unable to kill her or permanently cut her off from the force.

Ousting Traya with Darth Sion's help, Nihilus binges on the Force, nearly extinguishing the Jedi forever at Katarr.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic Saga Edition Campaign Guide

Surviving the Sith backstabbing following the Jedi Civil War, Sion's abilities draw the eye of Revan's former master, the powerful Darth Traya...He conspires with Darth Nihilus to strip her powers and eventually severs Traya's hand.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic Saga Edition Campaign Guide

But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her force powers.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic Saga Edition Campaign Guide

After all that happens still you live. You are difficult to kill.
…
"There is more. Darth Traya yet lives. You did not kill her, as you assumed."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II (Darth Sion, to Kreia on Peragus and Nihilus on the Ravager)

This is all important because Nihilus' resurrection of the Ravager along with his fleet occurred at around the same time. The resurrection of the Ravager and the fleet is said to be a measure of Nihilus' power. And since Traya by all indicators is actually Nihilus' superior at this point of time, this sort of power display should be within her capabilities. That should put her easily out of Malgus' range.

Another reason why I doubt Malgus' chances is that I'm genuinely not sure if he can put Traya down for good. With her incredible pain resistance, constant passive drain , and mastery of healing, it will be a terribly uphill battle for the False Emperor. Despite having any ability to augment herself stripped from her, Kreia was able withstand intense torture by the hands of Nihilus and Sion, who after the fact believed with certainty that she was dead. And only shortly after recovering her connection with the force on Peragus, Kreia recovers remarkably quickly after the agony of losing a limb. Later, Kreia even impales herself with a lightsaber, and not only manages to remain conscious, but is able to still use Force Crush on late-game Exile and walk away with no noted difficulty. Considering that it is said that she drained the Exile, I'd imagine she used this to heal herself. If so, this would mean that not even breaking through her defences and impaling her would be enough to take down Traya. And in fact, Traya has been shown to be able to heal mortally fatal wounds before with little effort and without drain even in the equation (Tobin, Hanharr).

Atton: I think she was barely keeping it together - I’m surprised that she’s able to stand with all that pain rolling off her.

Exile: What are you talking about? /// She didn’t seem in pain to me.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II (Conversation between Atton and Exile, Kreia later rebuffs all sympathy from the Exile even in the privacy of her quarters)

{Quiet} "You have failed me. Completely, and utterly. Ahh!"
{Hissing, disgusted, just stabbed herself so the player would feel it} "There - do you feel that, exile? It cuts through your defenses - as unprepared for such an attack as you are."
{Stern, holding back pain} "Let that pain be a lesson - and a reminder of what you have forgotten. Pain travels both ways along connections in the Force - it casts echoes, always - and one can learn to draw strength from such connections... and take it from others. It is a lesson you know well... and you have taught to others... at the end of the Mandalorian Wars."
…
{[Gameplay Programmer: Kreia does a Force Crush on the player, lifting him, and then holding him there.]}
…
Stay here and die, apprentice, among the wreckage of all that remains of the Jedi. It is a fitting grave until the Sith come to end you... to end everything. {[Gameplay Programmer: Kreia walks away from the fallen player, toward the exit.]}
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II (dialogue files, script)

- credit to Nova RT

Speaking of drain, Traya would be using this passively throughout the battle. And as the duel wears on, Traya will be growing stronger whilst Malgus grows weaker. She can also ramp this up to the sort of active draining that she used to easily dispose of the three Jedi Masters who were said to have 'extremely potent' force powers. I doubt Malgus would be killed by such an assault, but he would certainly be noticeably weakened. Such draining would shore up Traya's already considerable force powers. The incredible pain resist and healing of Traya as laid out above will allow her to prolong the battle and only further sap Malgus' strength.

As well as the potential to severely drain Malgus' force strength and continually weaken him over time while amping herself, Traya also has the ability to gravely hamper Malgus' general combative strength too. As a master of Ionize who is able to use it on the massive machinery of a tank droid, it is far from inconceivable that Traya could use her powers against Malgus' armor. To put into perspective what this could do, Obi-Wan was able to use Ionize to make Anakin drop his lightsaber in their Duel on Mustafar. Now think of a similar trick being used not only against a hand, but practically the entire body of the individual who is 'held together by machines' (SWTOR Encyclopedia), including the breathing apparatus on which that person depends. This is what Traya could do in a blink of an eye, and Malgus would have no counter to it.

The tank droid is a gigantic, lumbering machine that attacks with grenades and a flamethrower.
...
If you didn't bring Kreia along to cast Force Lightning and Stun Droid, this burden falls on you.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.

Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free.
Source: Revenge of the Sith

I could go into more detail about some lines of scaling and useful abilities that Traya has, but I don't want to labour the point too seriously here so I will sum up the points I have made so far:

[list][*]Traya, as the most senior member of the pre-fall Triumvirate, is superior to early Nihilus. Nihilus at this point was capable of pulling off his famed Ravager/fleet resurrection feat, which was stated to be a measure of his power. Traya scaling above this puts her comfortably out of Malgus' league.
[*]Traya, even in situations where her ability to augment herself is negligible or nil, is able to withstand lethal torture and the severing of limbs. Later, Kreia remains conscious through impaling herself with a lightsaber, and after the fact is still able to Force Crush late-game Exile and walk off almost casually.
[*]Traya is capable of not only withstanding, but also healing, utterly lethal wounds, including being impaled with a lightsaber and healing Tobin and Hanharr when they were next to dead.
[*]Throughout the battle, Traya will be growing stronger whilst Malgus grows weaker, and Traya would be able to ramp her drain up at any time to severely reduce Malgus' powers.
[*]As a master of Ionize, Traya will be able to instantly short-circuit the entirety of Malgus' mechanical armor, thus massively hampering Malgus' mobility and overall combat effectiveness, and disarming him in the same manner that Kenobi disarmed Anakin with this ability.
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Marvelous post.

Great stuff

Damn, good post.

Good stuff. I'll have a response up within a week or so.

Incredibly strong post. You far surpassed all expectations with that. This just got way more interesting

You are quite intelligent

I deeply doubt that malgus can win this one, traya is more experienced.

Originally posted by slayne
Good stuff. I'll have a response up within a week or so.

🤣

i find malgus the 15th strongest sith and darth traya as 8th.