Captain Comet vs. Manchester Black

Darkseid, the poster boy for 'surviving the Crisis unaffected' is, blatantly, not as powerful as he was Post-Crisis. Green Lanterns were now below Post-Crisis Superman, who is explicitly orders of magnitude below Pre-Crisis Superman [and obvious for anybody to see]. After the Crisis was done, Green Lanterns that explicitly survived the Crisis unaffected were barely able to move a planetoid, with their willpower combined and Superman helping them:
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user...x=1535035245576
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user...x=1535035251798
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user...x=1535035259220

While I disagree that GLs have been downgraded (post coir John has moved a planet and Kyle has held a black whole) the bottom line is Comet's feats are still intact. If GLs did downgrade that simply means that his feats scale off them. It doesnt invalidate them simply moves them with scaling. Being able to control the energy of a lantern against their will is still a uber feat if you downgrade Lanterns in power.

FTR I dont think Comet's strength comes into it. Post resurrection he didnt use it at all. Post resurection he is weakened in strength no doubt. Based on his comment that it made sense because he didnt get his strength until his previous body was older I'd assume that makes him 1/10 post crisis Superman (with scaling) or vastly less.

Also if this was pre resurrection Comet vs Black I'd tend to agree that Balck wins. Hed have to fight for it but the way I see it in TK pre resurrection Comet is several notches above MMH while in TP a notch or two below.

As this should either be post resurection or Nu52 both are vastly above the classic version psionically. Said classic version can use his tk to take on the likes of Sinestro and GLs, protect from Onimar Synn etc so since post resurection casually destroys 5 of his pre resurrection selves in a panel or two psionically he should have the chops to take a majority vs Black.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523759-mystery+in+space+%235+-+page+15.jpg
Post resurrection comet casually dropping three clones of his former self
Theres another scan i can liad when I get home where he drops 5

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523791-1+1+tp+resistance+of+the+weird.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523753-a+group+of+comet+clones+couldn%27t+tp+manip+the+weird+.jpg

This is how many clones of pre resurrection comet it took to alter a single memory of the Wierd (who MMH couldnt even read telepathically). They could literally do no more.

Yet post resurrection comet can do this
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523752-9r7zho9wd8yj3vzgmh6aw21hz.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523754-a+psi+rework+of+the+weird.jpg

Pre resurrection comet <Black (by a notch or so at best)<< post resurrection (based on how casually he deals psionically with multiples of his former self.

Even if we adopt your stance that power levels for GLs dropped with scaling and his time line intact it simply lowers those feats to comparible to post crisis Lanterns. This puts said feats within a reasonable ballpark of the feats you listed to Black. Take the ampingbof his psionics with the new younger body into consideration and simple scaling puts him comfortably above black.

I think they are pretty even when it comes to psi powers, what tips the scale are CCs superior physical attributes. MB can't overcome CC in a psi fight, they will both negate each other in this field.

Originally posted by beatboks
Also if this was pre resurrection Comet vs Black I'd tend to agree that Balck wins.

One thing I will add is that you're using a faulty logic with A>B>Cs - Comet used TP on Sinestro to control his constructs through him, so what you're actually scaling is the Green Lanterns' TP resistance [not to mention Sinestro didn't even know to defend, and TP caught him by surprise]:
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/MachineMan616/media/cGF0aDovU2VjcmV0U29jaWV0eU9mU3VwZXItVmlsbGFpbnNfMDUtMTcuanBn/?ref=&hotlinkfix=1535132044493
...which has nothing to do with the actual strength of the constructs.
He shielded against a casual Kyle blast here:
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/DCHawks_photo/media/cGF0aDovUmFubi1UaGFuYWdhcldhcl8wMi0xOC5qcGc=/?ref=&hotlinkfix=1535132283172
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/DCHawks_photo/media/cGF0aDovUmFubi1UaGFuYWdhcldhcl8wMi0xOS5qcGc=/?ref=&hotlinkfix=1535132459340And he
and beat Hal by taking him by surprise with physical strength:
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/MachineMan616/media/cGF0aDovU2VjcmV0U29jaWV0eU9mU3VwZXItVmlsbGFpbnNfMDJfMDUuanBn/?ref=&hotlinkfix=1535132624946

To say that Comet can replicate their construct feats, based on that, is funny, but absurd. Surely, you're not serious.
With the Pre-Crisis stuff, at this point, we're going too far deep into it. So if you want to say he wins based on those, I'm not into it.

Originally posted by beatboks
As this should either be post resurection or Nu52 both are vastly above the classic version psionically. Said classic version can use his tk to take on the likes of Sinestro and GLs, protect from Onimar Synn etc so since post resurection casually destroys 5 of his pre resurrection selves in a panel or two psionically he should have the chops to take a majority vs Black.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523759-mystery+in+space+%235+-+page+15.jpg
Post resurrection comet casually dropping three clones of his former self
Theres another scan i can liad when I get home where he drops 5

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523791-1+1+tp+resistance+of+the+weird.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523753-a+group+of+comet+clones+couldn%27t+tp+manip+the+weird+.jpg

That's the thing with reading respect threads - they don't give you the full story. [I'm not faulting Mungi here, but that's the way it is]

First of all, those 5 clones scan you used? That's not what happened. They actually overwhelmed him, and couldn't fight back. But as he was getting beaten, he detonated the area behind them with bombs he had already planted, allowing him to sucker-attack and run away. Here is the actual full scene:

It's the equivalent of somebody beating the utter shit out of you, then going the sneaky-old "Hey, what's that behind you?" then hitting them as they're distracted. You can actually read Comet pointing out that they don't have his battle experience and his 'fallback strategies', and he throws them off balance so he can run away.

So.....no.

What he did do, though, is drop two of his clones:

Originally posted by beatboks
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523791-1+1+tp+resistance+of+the+weird.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523753-a+group+of+comet+clones+couldn%27t+tp+manip+the+weird+.jpg

This is how many clones of pre resurrection comet it took to alter a single memory of the Wierd (who MMH couldnt even read telepathically). They could literally do no more.

Yet post resurrection comet can do this
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523752-9r7zho9wd8yj3vzgmh6aw21hz.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523754-a+psi+rework+of+the+weird.jpg

First of all, the Weird was roflstomping Comet, to a ridiculous degree, that Comet actually ran away from him in desperation. He was literally about to kill him. But the mental part of your argument? Comet hit him with a full power mental blast that he literally shrugged off:

What Comet did, in his last desperate attempt, was to mind-probe inside Weird's mind and release his memories [which have been suppressed, thus the 'dark goo' surrounding them], making him realize that Comet is his friend:

The Weird, obviously, has enormous mind-resistance, so this isn't a low showing. But the scene you're referring to flat-out states that his TP in raw power was nothing to the Weird, and he only escaped with his life by removing the memory-blocks inside Weird's mind. That's different from downing somebody with TP [which the Weird explicitly no-sold].

Originally posted by beatboks
Take the ampingbof his psionics with the new younger body into consideration and simple scaling puts him comfortably above black.

Captain Comet's TK has been strained by things that Black would do as an after-thought:
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/39213625/RacerX-MIS6-p10.jpg.html
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/39213626/RacerX-MIS6-p11.jpg.html

Or flat-out deplete himself just from a TK blast:
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/39213646/RacerX-MIS8-p25-26.jpg.html
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/39213647/RacerX-MIS8-p27.jpg.html

Manchester Black has literally, for weeks, held quantum rifts from collapsing into Black Holes and did so as he was fighting Superman and casually froze his attacks and TK'd him on the ground. Somewhere around there, he also rearranged Superboy's synapses to remove his powers as a kryptonian half-breed.

He's ridiculously above Comet's paygrade, in terms of TK.

Sorry for the 3post. That's what I get for using thumbnails.

Tu summarize - maybe close in TP (after upgrade, though comparisons against same opponents favors black), not close in tk. Black would simply overpower him.

Wait...what did I misportray in my respect threads again?

Great Beast Munginaq vs. Superphil of Steel... oh yes, it's gonna be glorious.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Wait...what did I misportray in my respect threads again?

It's this part:

How much higher? One could reasonably say 5 times given he TP simultaineously mind raped 5 clones of his pre ressurection body who served the church of light.

Originally posted by beatboks
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523759-mystery+in+space+%235+-+page+15.jpg
Post resurrection comet casually dropping three clones of his former self

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Great Beast Munginaq vs. Superphil of Steel... oh yes, it's gonna be glorious.

👆

Comet used TP on Sinestro to control his constructs through him

Only some of your links are working and that one isn't one. I assume you've loaded this feat
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576639-secretsocietyofsuper-villains_05-17.jpg~original.jpg
Honestly I can't see how you can say it's TP at all. Sinestro is quite clearly in control of his mind when he shows surprise that his construct suddenly snapped over his own head instead of Comet's.

It's consistent with his showing vs power ring
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576920-mental+force+stronger+than+a+green+power+battery+.jpg

where he took control of Power rings power battery's power. Needless to say it took greater effort with Sinestro who's more formidable than power ring.

Casually dropping? Oh, boks.

That's the thing with reading respect threads -

for the record I don't use Respect threads because I dont trust them. every scan I've loaded was from my own comet images page that I uploaded from my own comics.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/beatboks1/images/?tag=Captain%20Comet

i'm not sure if that link will work as it's me logged into my account, but I can look at image folders of other members.

they don't give you the full story. [I'm not faulting Mungi here, but that's the way it is]

First of all, those 5 clones scan you used? That's not what happened. They actually overwhelmed him, and couldn't fight back. But as he was getting beaten, he detonated the area behind them with bombs he had already planted, allowing him to sucker-attack and run away. Here is the actual full scene:

yes he was attacked by all the clones (a LOT MORE than 5) when he was found in the church of light. He was in their church where there were several dozen. Try reading your scans he didn't even try to defend against their mental assault because he had mad a backup plan. the bomb didn't even take out the ones in the room with him it took out those in other rooms below.
It's not like there weren't MULTIPLE examples of his easily besting more than one of them at a time throughout the series

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576921-psionic+attack.jpg

literally TK exploding the heads off two of them who possessed the TK levels that threw around Lobo, Strata and Garv in Legion.

In the first issue of Mystery in space (before we see him go into flashbacks when trapped in a psionic dampaner) he realises he can't match them in strength and TK ragdolls a couple at a time.

then there is this

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576569-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+23.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576570-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+24.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576571-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+25.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576572-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+27.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576574-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+28.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576575-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+30.jpg

The clones tell the deacon of the church of light just how hard it understand the wierd's mind. The five he takes to reprogramme him for the church but they can't even maintain contact with him.

Instead it takes this many

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576578-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+34.jpg

to alter a single memory to make Comety his most hated enemy.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523791-1+1+tp+resistance+of+the+weird.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576600-mystery+in+space+%237+-+page+30.jpg

this was to cause the hidden memories you mentioned

What Comet did, in his last desperate attempt, was to mind-probe inside Weird's mind and release his memories [which have been suppressed, thus the 'dark goo' surrounding them], making him realize that Comet is his friend:

The Weird, obviously, has enormous mind-resistance, so this isn't a low showing. But the scene you're referring to flat-out states that his TP in raw power was nothing to the Weird, and he only escaped with his life by removing the memory-blocks inside Weird's mind. That's different from downing somebody with TP [which the Weird explicitly no-sold].

No where did I say or state that Wierd was anything but formidable. The fact is if you read the link name of the image I uploaded for the clones / monks altering that memory it's called wierd's tp resistance. The fact remains that post resurection comet with a deep scan did what 5 clones of his former body couldn't. He also reversed wheat it took a dozen of such clones to do

I don't think you understand how strong Pre-Crisis Superman was, or what 1/10 of his strength means. It would make Comet able to put his fist through every post-Crisis character. The guy was able to move galaxy worth of planets, as a teenager, with a chain.I don't need to pull up the numbers here to put it into perspective, I hope.

It is clearly shown and stated several times in mystery in space that he is significantly increased in psionic power (just as he is vastly reduced in physical). pre that upgrade he could use TK to fight Lantern's, Lobo, Lar gand and others on the same level that Black can. His performance was not at the same level vs those characters as Black was vs Superman etc (that is why I would say pre resurrection looses to Black - though can at least drag out the fight except if Black goes purely TP. his TP wasn't anywhere near Black's level pre resurection though it is imho post). The amp he gained psionically post resurrection is significant enough to shift the scale the other way. Based on what I have read of Nu52 Comet he appears even more psionically enhanced. I wont however debate that as I've only read 3 issues in which he appears and don't consider that enough to go on.

Originally posted by beatboks
Only some of your links are working and that one isn't one. I assume you've loaded this feat
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576639-secretsocietyofsuper-villains_05-17.jpg~original.jpg
Honestly I can't see how you can say it's TP at all. Sinestro is quite clearly in control of his mind when he shows surprise that his construct suddenly snapped over his own head instead of Comet's.

Sinestro: "You can stop my fists -- but not my mental control over my ring"

Narration: "Were he more confident, of victory, Captain Comet might have explained his his own mental powers to his foe"

He clearly used TP. Sinestro even goads him into doing exactly that. That's why he was explicitly focusing - he was getting inside Sinestro's head.

Your Power Batter example is a contest of wills, only this time the opponent knew to fight back.

Btw, for the links to work, use the Photobucket Extension for Chrome. The site has been playing tricks for a while, and links from there generally need that to work.

Originally posted by beatboks
for the record I don't use Respect threads because I dont trust them. every scan I've loaded was from my own comet images page that I uploaded from my own comics.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/beatboks1/images/?tag=Captain%20Comet

i'm not sure if that link will work as it's me logged into my account, but I can look at image folders of other members.

Since you posted the single scan, and there was a lot more context, I assumed you just used the respect thread.

Originally posted by beatboks
yes he was attacked by all the clones (a LOT MORE than 5) when he was found in the church of light. He was in their church where there were several dozen. Try reading your scans he didn't even try to defend against their mental assault because he had mad a backup plan. the bomb didn't even take out the ones in the room with him it took out those in other rooms below.

So, beat, this statement of yours:

5 times given he TP simultaineously mind raped 5 clones of his pre ressurection body who served the church of light.

I posted the scans. You can go back over them. Or you can go back to the issue - Mystery in Space #5.

Originally posted by beatboks
It's not like there weren't MULTIPLE examples of his easily besting more than one of them at a time throughout the series

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576921-psionic+attack.jpg

Beat, I posted the scan myself. It's right in my previous post.

Nobody here is arguing that he is not more powerful than his clones. But you were wrong when you said that he "casually" dropped them in the example where he was up against 5 of them, ignoring the context, and ignoring that he was actually overpowered.

Originally posted by beatboks
then there is this

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576569-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+23.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576570-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+24.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576571-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+25.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576572-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+27.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576574-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+28.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576575-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+30.jpg

The clones tell the deacon of the church of light just how hard it understand the wierd's mind. The five he takes to reprogramme him for the church but they can't even maintain contact with him.

Instead it takes this many

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576578-mystery+in+space+%233+-+page+34.jpg

to alter a single memory to make Comety his most hated enemy.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6523791-1+1+tp+resistance+of+the+weird.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/6576600-mystery+in+space+%237+-+page+30.jpg

this was to cause the hidden memories you mentioned

No where did I say or state that Wierd was anything but formidable. The fact is if you read the link name of the image I uploaded for the clones / monks altering that memory it's called wierd's tp resistance. The fact remains that post resurection comet with a deep scan did what 5 clones of his former body couldn't. He also reversed wheat it took a dozen of such clones to do

It is clearly shown and stated several times in mystery in space that he is significantly increased in psionic power (just as he is vastly reduced in physical).

Yes. I know how many people it took to reprogram the brain of the Weird, because his mind was so complicated. But what Captain Comet did is simply release his memories, he didn't mind-wipe him in the least - quite the opposite - when his raw telepathic power is nothing to the Weird. You're talking about different things here - raw power, and skill. You can't use a skill showing, to show that he has greater raw power than multiple clones, when in fact in raw power, he was explicitly below 5 clones [but also above 2]. And the story also explicitly makes it clear, multiple times, that they're not as skilled as him.

In short - he is somewhere >2x times his former TP raw-power, but <5x times.

His performance was not at the same level vs those characters as Black was vs Superman etc (that is why I would say pre resurrection looses to Black - though can at least drag out the fight except if Black goes purely TP. his TP wasn't anywhere near Black's level pre resurection though it is imho post). The amp he gained psionically post resurrection is significant enough to shift the scale the other way. Based on what I have read of Nu52 Comet he appears even more psionically enhanced. I wont however debate that as I've only read 3 issues in which he appears and don't consider that enough to go on.

I don't know what we can particularly add to the discussion, since we both see our viewpoints but simply disagree on the degree Post-Ressurection brought them close to each other. So I'll just leave it at this. It was a good talk 👆

I don't know what we can particularly add to the discussion, since we both see our viewpoints but simply disagree on the degree Post-Ressurection brought them close to each other. So I'll just leave it at this. It was a good talk thumb up

Fair enough. Agree to disagree. I originally said Comet dor me because I can see arguments being made for Black. I got the impression you were saying it was quite a stomp for Black (which was what got.my back up). Looking back over the thread I'm not sure why. I must have been in a sensitive ml oment and took the slight arrogant "mine is the correct opinion" and read a lot between the lines.

I will say that where the amp goes as far as his TK is concerned I agree with it only being amped by about 2 post resureection.

The Psionic upgrade as I see it amped his TP vastly more but only to make them more even in power level. Classic comet had quite a disparity in power level between TP and TK.

Post resurrection we saw in about issue 5 or 6 of mystery in space he could TK handle 2 Darkstars but not more. Darkstars are about even with generic Lanterns so this seems about right. That combined with the fact he never TK handled more than two of the monks/clones at once (ah la exploding heads, issue 1s openning scenes)

Conversely in TP he simply wasnt anywhere near as powerful pre resurrection compared to TK (where they seemed more even after). That's probably why I cant see him TPing Sinestro because frankly he just hasnt got the TP chops pre upgrade. It was Shown in SSOSV that Grodd Was His telepathic superior in power he only managed to beat him via "telepathic judo". No way could Grodd TP Sinestro even if he didnt shield (and that was only a few issues apart). Add that to other showings like Legion 44 (IIRC), comet use his TP to make a rioting crowd disperse. Lady Quark commented with great respect, to which comet was surprised because " his TP isn't that strong" (his words). This was around the time he got infested by the parasite IIRC. He could TP read large areas and TP communicate over decent ranges and link people but he lacked the ability to control via TP to a significant degree. The earth 3 pre COIE story is another example he TP calmed a street full of people but it took quite an effort.

One last thing re the characters you were discussing that have continuous continuity through COIE. Your example of Darkside for instance. you see it as inconsistent but I actually see it is consistent because he is scaled against the same characters he performed the feats against in their post-crisis power levels. If he beat Superman to a degree and remained as powerful as he was pre-crisis then he would Stomp post-crisis Superman in the same instance. Similar case we made for losh. The continuity continued through crisis but they still had to be scaled against how they compared to other characters they fought beside. Post mon-el wasn't suddenly vastly stronger and faster than Superman. For the feats remain the same the power levels had to adjust comparitively. That's why post-crisis lanterns can't move planets because post crisis Superman can't take dozens of planets the power head to scale down if their feets remain consistent in relation to Superman.

I guess what I'm saying is I've always seen it as those characters that continued with the same continuaty through the event, simply have their powers at a level that is consistent with that required to perform the same feat against the same character at their post-crisis level. If the history didnt change for them then they have to be able to perform to the same comparitive degree vs the same character at their new level.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree. I originally said Comet dor me because I can see arguments being made for Black. I got the impression you were saying it was quite a stomp for Black (which was what got.my back up). Looking back over the thread I'm not sure why. I must have been in a sensitive ml oment and took the slight arrogant "mine is the correct opinion" and read a lot between the lines.

This is only my second time in this thread, as i’m boted and finally wondered how this very cut and dried victory for CC had made 2 pages.
And now i know. 😛

Originally posted by beatboks
Fair enough. Agree to disagree. I originally said Comet dor me because I can see arguments being made for Black. I got the impression you were saying it was quite a stomp for Black (which was what got.my back up). Looking back over the thread I'm not sure why. I must have been in a sensitive ml oment and took the slight arrogant "mine is the correct opinion" and read a lot between the lines.