Originally posted by Haschwalth
1. So you are admitting Valkorion, revived her force reserves? the only logical explanation, other than her being weakened.
2.Valkorion, never fully dominated the outlanders mind, as you stated he used, the holocron. was used to give HoT back full control.
3.Huh? no he hadn't hence, why he needed to attack the outlander, and knock him out, Use his force technique. Sure he was in the perfect position to complete his domination. But nothing indicates that this would of hindered the Outlanders strength, as it wasn't implied with the outlander leading up to him taking the throne. He would notice, a difference in strength otherwise,
1. The answer is either “yes” or she didn’t necessarily exhaust her force reserves. Because we clearly see that after Outlander defeats Vaylin in Chapter 9 that Vaylin is “dead”, or at least incapacitated, and Valkorion simply forces her to rise again, as if she was never incapacitated in the first place. It’s pure guesswork to conclude that she was weakened at that point.
2. Correct, Valkorion doesn’t wholly take over the Outlander’s mind, but he does shatter the Outlander’s mind and attempts to toss him into the abyss of his consciousness, (the Outlander only resisting via his mind assuming Valkorion’s form). Outlander re-assuming his form/essence is not the same as regaining full control of his body, nor would it make the Outlander more powerful than his spirit would normally be. The fight clearly isn’t as simple as, “this is the equivalent of FP KOTET Outlander and this is Spirit Valkorion.”
3. That’s complete bogus. We see that even as Valkorion is “ragdolling” the Outlander, the Outlander himself says “as you command, my...Emperor,” indicating that Valkorion had already conquered the Outlander’s psyche. And of course dominating the Outlander’s mind/body would hinder his strength as it pertains to being able to defend himself from Valkorion’s Wrath, lol. And again, Valkorion had Vaylin’s spirit helping him.
1.Looks like Valkorion is several times stronger than Vaylin, this would also logically Imply She stood no chance, in a Physical form fight. As it would be parallel. Also implies Valkorion was far weaker, when he dominated Outlander/Arcann/Vaylin.
The later option is less probable tbh, as Vaylin is around the same level as the outlander, and would of expended vast amounts of energy in battle.
2. Would disagree, as control of his mind, Would give him access to his potential. Hence why he had control of the situation. Sion and Revan are examples, of only needing the mind, with dead/inactive bodies.
3.Disagree, he also literally stops time, preventing arcann, senya from intervening. Why could he, or even need to do that, if he Has already dominated the outlanders mind. Their would of been no point in attacking the outlander either. Unless he needed to knock him out. The outlander was completely overwhelmed. "As you command", isn't a concrete indication of such. We don't know what fully occured, all we know is he got ragdolled knocked out and taken over.
t’s not exactly ridiculous to consider that someone capable of beating Unchained Vaylin, who in turn is vastly more powerful than Chained Vaylin, who in turn directly overpowered Spirit Valkorion, is more powerful than Revan. I would simply argue that the Outlander has stronger evidence via a more direct line of scaling to Spirit Valkorion.
@Hasch:
1. Yes, physical Valkorion is vastly stronger than even Unchained Vaylin. I also don’t see how Valkorion would be “far weaker” after bringing back Vaylin, given how casually he performed the feat, (and the implication that Valkorion could do it continuously had the Outlander not used the Holocron). So, what do you think Valkorion did by instantly resurrecting/capacitating Unchained Vaylin? Did he merely bring her back to consciousness, even though the whole point of bringing back Vaylin was so she’d defeat the Outlander, something she wouldn’t be able to do if she was somehow hindered/weakened?
2. That isn’t necessarily true. While the Outlander regained his mind/essence, he was still fighting Valkorion for control of his body. Again, an internal battle of spirits is markedly different than a spirit vs a force user in a physical body. We have no evidence to suggest the Outlander regained lost power via being able to “draw on his potential”. There’s certainly none in the dialogue. The only reason the Outlander gained control of the situation is because he suddenly realized that he regained control of his mind. That wouldn’t make sense if he had a notable growth in power upon regaining control of his mind.
3. That makes no sense. So you’re saying that the Outlander literally going from being non-cooperative to saying “As you command, my Emperor,” with a strained voice as he tries to resist the mental domination, is not indication that he was being mentally dominated? And your evidence for this is that Tenebrae stopped Arcann and Senya from intervening? I fail to see the connection between the premise and the conclusion And, yet again, Tenebrae was in control of Vaylin’s spirit to aid him in overcoming the Outlander, something you’ve been dodging this entire time.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Actually, IIRC, it was you and Ant who pointed out that Valk had to shield the Outlander from Vaylin's original attack when I tried to argue Outlander> Vaylin
Well we were wrong tbh
Regardless, you don’t need Chapter 8 to prove Outlander > Vaylin. Spirit Outlander defeats Spirit Unchained Vaylin in Chapter 9, straight up.