Battlezone: Philosophia vs. Damborgson

[list][*]Philosophia will be repping a non-all-out, Byrne era Superman -- that is to say, Superman cannot enter his 'Doomsday-killing' mindset here. [/list][list][*]Damborgson will be repping Blue Marvel.[/list]
[list][*]Battle will take place on The Sacred World of the Kai:[/list]
*Assume the field is completely indestructible.
*NO BFR.
*NO sundipping or external amps of any kind.
*Victory by KO or death.

[list][*]There will be a 3 post limit(1 opening post, 1 rebuttal post, and 1 closing post.)[/list][list][*]The match will begin Friday(10/12), and conclude Monday(10/15).[/list]

*The judges will be:
-CosmicComet
-deathslash
-xJLxKing
-Pr
-NemeBro

Good luck to both contestants!

Phil's OP:

Well, hello everybody.

_

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I will let the scan-dump for the following posts. But for now, an overview.

_

This may sound weird to start with --- but what you're about to read here are two different topics, that are related, but nevertheless separate.

_

Damborg doesn't know it yet, but by the end of this, he'll reluctantly agree.

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These two discussions will be:

_

1. The fight [i.e. what you vote on, based on us taking control of their abilities]

2. The comparison between the characters [i.e. how the stories show them performing]

_

I'm taking this opportunity to have an extended discussion on the latter, because the former is, well, clear-cut.

_

With that said, let's get this out of the way --

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The FIGHT

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At various points throughout this discussion, empathy will kick in for some of you [and Damborg is a nice dude]. Maybe you'll think of not taking the point I'm about to make as definitive, give him some rope.

_

In the dying embers of it, even Damborg will think "I should have asked for the fight with it equalized..."

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But, the fact of the matter is...

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Superman wins, in a battlezone setting, every time. It may sound harsh, but there's no way to get around this.

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You'll have to excuse me for being predictable here, and just pointing out the elephant in the room, but, that "IT" is...

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SPEED -> Blue Marvel is a statue

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Superman's super-speed allows him to move with the utmost ease while time is suspended in a fraction of a nanosecond:

https://imgur.com/a/W8zLDZW

https://imgur.com/a/1c8pTn8

_

I'm sure many of you already know what that entails but, to give you a perspective on what a nanosecond is (10^(-9) seconds, or 0.000000001s), here's a short explanation:

- something moving at the speed of light [~3,000,000,000 m/s or 186,282 miles/second] moves just 30 cm (1 foot) in a nanosecond. That's smaller than the distance between the tip of your elbow and the top of your index finger.

- A nanosecond is to one second as one second is to 31.7 years.

_

And Superman was interacting in a suspended fraction of that.

_

It's hard to wrap yourself around the fact that, while a second passes from a combatant's perspective, years pass from the other's.

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But...that's how this fight is. We're not in a comic book. We don't need to make it balanced. There's a reason superspeed is banned in most tourneys.

_

Damborg doesn't get to do a single action. If I wanted to let him have one free shot, I would literally have to spend many years just staring at him, as the thought of his first action formed, and then another few years staring at him trying to put it in practice.

_

Blue Marvel has nothing. Not in the way of "is his superspeed even approaching that astronomical level?". I mean that as in, it's in doubt he even has what you can call actual superspeed.

_

This, for example, will be used as an argument, as it's the only one that even resembles super-speed.

https://imgur.com/a/2wEcgeM

https://imgur.com/a/EpfFmuZ

_

He is blurry, while bullrushing through a portal a being that's not even looking at him, standing a few meters away, then punches him when he tries to get up. _

_

Moving in a blurr is such low level of speed, that it's basically made for street levelers. Examples:

https://i.imgur.com/CJOtdJO.png ;

https://i.imgur.com/JeE33X6.png ;

https://i.imgur.com/RFFyDHb.png + https://i.imgur.com/wOA4Ts4.png ; [again, this is just one character, all of them have multiple feats like this]

eeeeeeeetc.

_

Make no mistake - the discussion here is not "Does Blue Marvel superspeed?". Maybe some of you see that as showing low-level superhuman speed. The correct question is "does Blue Marvel have superspeed feats on Superman's level, so as not to make him a statue?". And the answer, painfully clear, is not.

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It's a simple matter for Superman to put his lights out [I assume you're all familiar with Lobo]:

https://imgur.com/a/6QqQd1r

https://imgur.com/a/cjmPeXQ

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I can, of course, take my time. Time is literally what I have in spades, or decades if you will. Trashing him with my heat vision in all those nice, vulnerable places:

https://imgur.com/a/JHrA7Ig [this Superman was vastly weakened yet his HV still could have crippled Mongul]

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Like the eyes:

https://imgur.com/a/NXzgUu7

https://imgur.com/a/1Ajy9pi

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Speaking of which, this makes for a nice transition into..

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The COMPARISON

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What's the first thing that people associate with Byrne-era Superman? "The weak Superman". This is a common misconception and it couldn't be further from the truth.

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To understand this, there's a two key points:

1). Superman is a special case, in that he gets more powerful as time passes. He is split in periods of 'power boosts' [i.e. Byrne, Post-Death, OWAW, Infinite Crisis], but the other heroes/villains [Orion, Martian Manhunter, Lobo, etc.] have no such thing, generally. So when he fights, he does so not against, for example, 'Byrne era Orion'. He does so against Orion period.

2). Superman, even during this period, was the most powerful hero on Earth, and even during this period, he was getting powerful year by year. _

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To give you an example of how formidable Superman was, even then, compared to the rest, let's take a look at the Weird.

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He has faced a team of:

- Martian Manhunter https://imgur.com/a/fpJi2Ze https://imgur.com/a/ji6EwHv]

- Green Lantern [Guy] https://imgur.com/a/5D3kreO https://imgur.com/a/Xo9lVbB]

- Doctor Fate and Captain Atom https://imgur.com/a/RCcg2E0 https://imgur.com/a/KBoE93M]

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As you can see, he one shot KOd all of them.

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Against Superman? Not so much.

https://imgur.com/a/vJPQHTL

https://imgur.com/a/8G5gXan

https://imgur.com/a/A0Eskw3

https://imgur.com/a/VHzKbqg

https://imgur.com/a/DEcpmr1

https://imgur.com/a/TlhWNoI

https://imgur.com/a/xmxeFOk

https://imgur.com/a/3uxZenk

https://imgur.com/a/7AAhnuf

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Or, better yet, let's take a look at Mon-El vs Superman, while Clark is literally suffocating:

https://imgur.com/a/zzZ3po0

https://imgur.com/a/Z9E1yr7

https://imgur.com/a/TMTmHng

https://imgur.com/a/XclaIDR

https://imgur.com/a/hCydyPp

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To give you an idea of Mon-El, he moves white dwarf stars between solar systems, and throws planets at Time Trapper:

https://imgur.com/a/ZZty3Ds

https://imgur.com/a/ob4vOxO

https://imgur.com/a/kl7EmYv

---

https://imgur.com/a/seO68ND

https://imgur.com/a/dQrhcDX

https://imgur.com/a/O1JjaKe

_

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Now, I'll let my opponent post his initial post before fully diving into Blue Marvel's record, but, suffice to say...

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It will be found lacking.

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Let's rumble.

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Damborg's OP:

Ready Superman? Because I’m about to show you, the difference in our ability.

These are two characters with myths surrounding them, one is that Byrne Superman is the “weak” Superman, and true, he’s not as strong as his later incarnations. By any other standard, this is still Superman however.
The more important myth is that Blue Marvel has yet to adequately prove himself. This is not the case, Blue Marvel is top tier, realistically stronger and more formidable than your standard hero Sentry.
His main villain Anti-Man’s treatment of the OG Mighty Avengers:
https://imgur.com/epCuTPL
https://imgur.com/Dlrm12p
Casually able to palm the Sentry, who at the time was hitting wicked hard:
https://imgur.com/jWlVnWC
Hmm…reminds me of something…
https://imgur.com/ED8sADz
Anywho, this is Blue Marvel’s treatment of Antiman:
https://imgur.com/DRUrHGj
https://imgur.com/cPHwOWJ
Unleashed Antiman (massively enhanced):
https://imgur.com/mRSF2R7
https://imgur.com/ewjSG3w
https://imgur.com/p4MhS5n
The level that Marvel operates at is truly astounding, as you all saw Antiman casually brushed off the Mighty Avengers but was defeated by Marvel himself.
Now that we have an understanding of the level Blue Marvel operates on…
Let’s Analyze what Superman brings to the Table
For someone like Marvel with about 4.5 issues he’s actually been in, Brasheer has a flawless record against the powerset that Superman brings to the table. Super strength, super speed, super durability, flight, and heat vision?
Heh.
Hyperion:
https://imgur.com/KHhmzii
https://imgur.com/1yEQkPV
King Hyperion:
https://imgur.com/nRWP8Nx
https://imgur.com/dKIcP8q
Sentry (Trying to take him out)
https://imgur.com/yA50vF6
https://imgur.com/7eHaeuM

Nothing there is a surprise to Marvel, nor would it ever be since I am in control of him but he naturally has experience with Superman’s powerset, and he has a winning record. His punches wrapped in energy would be absolutely devastating to Superman.
Byrne Superman and the level he operated at
This is still Superman, and with that comes a plethora of showings and feats. But this is a Superman who as described by Philo himself:
“I. This version of Superman was not faster than, or even at lightspeed.
II. His invulnerability was drastically reduced to the point where a big enough explosion, like a 40 megaton one, is capable of knocking him out for extended periods of times.
III. He was nowhere near strong enough to move celestial bodies.
IV. He isn’t capable of breathing in space, and the distances he can travel are very limited.”
Those were John Byrne’s intentions as described by Philo himself, and while they weren’t always carried out that way, for every showing that goes above the standard, there was frequently a showing that put that standard back in place.
Showings like these:
https://imgur.com/F6AIQ95
https://imgur.com/rQOcouV
https://imgur.com/mwH34U8
Superman more or less operated at a level where nukes would most likely be enough to silence him for a while, a 40megaton thermonuclear explosion was sufficient to put him down for 30 minutes:
https://imgur.com/OJANMjU
https://imgur.com/LSCtdtf
https://imgur.com/LSCtdtf
And Booster Gold confirms that’s about the level Superman is at:
https://i.imgur.com/HEzukeE.jpg

Disregard Superman getting hurt in that blast, it was laced with kryptonite.
As mentioned, does Superman have showings higher than these? Duh. Philo will no doubt show you, but for every good showing an equally not so good showing of these times can be found, and it brings down his average.
Blue Marvel on the other hand, does not have that problem.
He may not have that many showings, but he also doesn’t have hardly any low showings, even less that aren’t against higher tier opponents.
Though even if those opponents are higher tier:
Defeats Pagan:
https://imgur.com/sINXpwU
Who is this level:
https://imgur.com/O8llpJt
https://imgur.com/TrO3oNG
So once again, Marvel beats a powerful team stomper.
Now… THE FIGHT
Philo isn’t exactly new at this, so I assume he’s going to for every advantage he’s got, namely speed, or try to immobilize me some way first with freeze breath, something along those lines.
First off, Blue Marvel is a legitimate Super speeder:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/25s53br.jpg
http://oi60.tinypic.com/348omlg.jpg
Casual flight to the moon in a few moments/
Catches up to galaxy traveling nova after blitzing luke Cage:
https://imgur.com/pM8Buju
And Kid Nova is massively FTL when he puts his foot on the gas:
http://i.imgur.com/j7aPMnv.jpg
Also, Brasheer’s mind is very capable itself of processing information in massive, universal quantities at once: https://imgur.com/AuVXbcd
https://imgur.com/DqtWWsV
So getting overwhelemed, takes a lot of commitment.
Am I as fast as Superman to the dot? Probably not. Am I fast enough to not get turned into a statue instatntly? I don’t see why not thumb up
So Superman is going to come out full on super speed, and trying to blitz me only to find that his attacks aren’t working quite as well as he’d hoped for. For 3 reasons.
1. I’m pretty fast myself
2. I have shields
- Blue Marvel is incredibly versatile with his energies, able to create personalized shields that can take different forms like when he stopped King Hyperions heat vision:
https://imgur.com/QZ0d3vR

Except my blue Marvel is not guilty feeling or full of doubt in himself like in the first part of his scuffle with king hyperion, he’s at full capacity.

Though he can also produce force fields, like this:
https://imgur.com/CKdQzmA
https://imgur.com/rmCFSPG

Who did he contain you might ask? God. With a capital G.
https://imgur.com/JQIZqYq

Was he at full power? Obviously not, but even a fraction of universal power is more than enough to hold back Superman.

And as you can see I can surround my body with a similar aura, one used to block Anti-Man in the same scan:
https://imgur.com/ewjSG3w

3. Superman is losing consciousness

Let’s not confuse things here, Blue Marvel easily has the power to knock Superman out. Without question. Ask the sentry:

Though Sentry isn’t the only one to feel the one shot:

That is of course, the ultimate Hulk, the one capable of matching our 616 green Hulk’s fists:
https://imgur.com/LC2dsaT
My shielding will protect me from heat vision, from frost breath, from super speed and that leaves strength, where Superman will find himself fighting a losing battle more and more until he is eventually…

Eventually, with every hit and every shot Superman takes he will fade. And it will be sooner than later given the massive right hand on Adam Brasheer.
My Omni Blast While Superman is in the area trying to take me down, part of my plan is to let loose a massive AOE attack that will level Superman with the same power that took out the more powerful than ever anti man:

Before it gets said, I’m aware that there was weakness exploitation in play for anti-man, but that won’t matter much. The blast itself will be more than enough to rock Superman. A far lesser scale hand blast from Marvel can instantly make Captain Marvel go binary:
https://i.imgur.com/rhOZUG4.jpg
(It knocked over Thanos too)
And it’s not that easy for Carol Manvers to go binary, here she absorbs a thermo nuclear warhead (kind of like the one that knocked out Superman), and stays in her normal form. She was amped, but she didn’t ascend:
https://imgur.com/M6SLuKH
https://imgur.com/bk70qUA
https://imgur.com/mfSWdBm
yet Marvel can easily produce the energy to ascend her.
Or the energy necessary to help knock Galactus into his metamorphosis chamber:
https://imgur.com/PfN7D4W

The FIGHT SO FAR
We start and I am well protected through my versatile shielding, you appear and discover that getting through to me will be no easy task. We engage and you are hit with more force than Byrne would ever allow you to be hit with. You wear down, and get hit more and more, devastatingly so, until even Superman’s spirit crumbles. Or you are contained in the same force field that held back God. Either way, you’re not winning this match.

The cherry on top
Should I feel the need to, I can also steal your solar radiation:
https://imgur.com/JCxoZvx
Seeing as how Marvel can see down to the quark level and I have basic knowledge of your abilities, I am a walking energy sapping machine.
You were right, I was ready to rumble.

Let the games begin! 🙂

As expected.

---

Dear judges, pay attention, because he is gaslighting you.

Common tactics are using big words:
"Who did he contain you might ask? God. With a capital G."
"you are contained in the same force field that held back God."
Then backing down:
"Was he at full power? Obviously not"

Using big statements:
"Blue Marvel is top tier, realistically stronger and more formidable than your standard hero Sentry."
Then backing down:
"Before it gets said, I’m aware that there was weakness exploitation in play for anti-man, but that won’t matter much."

etc.

It's like a news article that goes on a rant, then at the bottom of the page it has "Note: This may not be real".

- Speed -

I won't even make fun of him, because I know he has nothing so he has to reach.
a). Travel speed - Blue Marvel flying in a straight line to the moon [and the scan says minutes, not moments]
b). Travel speed again - Blue Marvel flying in a straight line towards Nova [Luke Cage,hmm..]
c). Blue Marvel using a machine that amps his perception/consciousness, because he wanted to have Spectrum's Cosmic Awareness and see the Universe differently [thus the different images you see him receiving]. "Huh? Equipment that amps?" you might say. Yes. Damborg has a tendency to 'omit' facts:
https://imgur.com/a/5LrJbAN
Machine that grants him Cosmic Awareness =/= ability to percieve and move in nanoseconds.

Myeah. I see he's also reached a point where he uses the false equivalence logical fallacy. This is also known as the "Hulk has superspeed fallacy", where he fights super-fast chars, so that means that he is super fast. Case and point: "Brasheer has a flawless record against the powerset that Superman brings to the table [..] super speed[..] Hyperion, King Hyperion, Sentry".

Since I'm here..
Lightning moves in slow-motion compared to Superman's perceptions/movement.
https://imgur.com/a/NRnpTQN

- Comparison -

Hoooooly smokes, there's a lot of context to add here.

1). Anti-Man.
*Blue Marvel is tailor made to be a weakness for Anti-Man - he's linked and can sync with him:
https://imgur.com/a/y3HJLbh
*Blue admits he can't beat him straight up:
https://imgur.com/a/0OLIxka
*Anti-Man one-shotted Blue Marvel when it was just the two of them:
https://imgur.com/a/9SHcbzZ
*The Avengers were gang-piling him with weapons design to break him:
https://imgur.com/a/jZAA3XN
*All Blue Marvel did was take him by surprise after he was done getting plowed by the entire team and punch him away.
https://imgur.com/DRUrHGj
*They made a plan to actually depower him even further:
https://imgur.com/a/7pU9f7s
...while Blue Marvel was using his weakness to link with him:
https://imgur.com/a/LCgpniQ

Anti-Man was in a non-stop gauntlet of people hitting him with his weakness, syncinc with him, trying to disperse him,attacking him physically/energy etc.
To act like that wasn't a team effort that wore down Anti-Man is rather absurd.

Furthermore the "omni-blast" he hopes for? That's syncing and dispersing Anti-Man's implosion. He explains it in the same issue the scan is from.
https://imgur.com/a/7LeJcON

Meanwhile, see Superman: The Weird, to see somebody matching a team buster.

2). King Hyperion

He beat Blue Marvel, and then he walked away:
https://imgur.com/a/h9Pxhm3
BM then sucker-shut him with lightning [you can actually see King Hyperion's slurred speech afterwards] and took him down:
https://imgur.com/a/KpIeaZq

KH is godawful. He broke his hand on depowered Juggernaut and had his eye-beams matched by Moonstone:
https://imgur.com/a/tE0y2zN

This garbage bin Hyperion literally broke BM's shield in a single punch [see the 1st scan] and KO'd him. Damborg used this as a feat for his shield!

3. Damborg: "Sentry (trying to take him out"😉

Meanwhile, in the facts world, we see Sentry holding back and stop the pounding to talk Blue Marvel into not getting up - who is on his knees on the ground after being on the losing end of the slugfest.
https://imgur.com/yA50vF6

Sentry is also weak against Anti-Matter/Negative Zone:
https://imgur.com/a/w9EimpO

And this was the state of the planet:
https://imgur.com/a/HeIYvoY

...and after he gets flash KOd in orbit, Sentry comes back and wins.

Don't get me wrong, this is a good feat. But Fabio-Sentry is rather unimpressive, and most of the time a joke. Hercules treated him as a joke:
https://imgur.com/a/O4D8jtN

Red Hulk [depowered] treated the entire Mighty Avengers like a joke:
https://imgur.com/a/vUCaoYl

See: Mon-El vs Superman

Ultimate Hulk? That's a legitimately nice uppercut.

Still, compared to Superman...? Heh.

Superman one-shots Maxima with a backhand as he plows through her attacks:
https://imgur.com/a/467535M

Superman upper-cuts Etrigan into unconsciousness:
https://imgur.com/a/JeUtmCp

Superman puts Lobo out of it:
https://imgur.com/a/odrhPyb

Superman one-shots Bizarro into dust:
https://imgur.com/a/HnuDP3M

Superman vs Lobo and Mon-el, simultaneously, one shots them by slamming their head stogether::
https://imgur.com/a/tPH5NqI

Superman trashes Kalibak and as he plows through breaks his Beta-Club:
https://imgur.com/a/xp4WIhh

4). Damborg: "God. With a capital G." - "you are contained in the same force field that held back God. "

I'm wondering how he posted that with a straight face.

Is this the WWE, where we're just hyping empty stuff?

This 'God' is actually Shaper Of the Worlds, after he had gave up his power, and is now living as a ghost. He is called the Living Void...because he's a literal nothing. And the moment it was trying to get out, Blue Marvel needed Spectrum to amp him and blood was running out of his nose.
This is specifically stated in the same scan he posted, lol:
"I gave up my substance - my power - myself - to remake a single Universe. [..] And I died."
https://imgur.com/a/1h011a4

And also by Blue Marvel:
https://imgur.com/a/4xGJWRT

Black Panther's energy daggers set to Carol's frequency actually dispersed this "GOD! WITH A CAPITAL G! YAHWEH INCARNATE!" 😂 just before Blue Marvel put an energy buble around him as he was reforming..which takes considerable concentration and time in the first place.
https://imgur.com/a/vgFyBMN

Look at Superman here, restraining SWAMP THING, THE GOD OF NATURE by looking at it!
https://imgur.com/a/uOYhf0m

Superman rubs his hands to create a field which removes this omnipotent, omniscient creature!!!!
https://imgur.com/a/GZwxpAm

5). "Blue Marvel made Carol go binary!!"

A random Thanos gun made her go binary:
https://imgur.com/a/5lFAHXO

A small ship exploding made her go Binary:
https://imgur.com/a/T0ua4G2

etc.

So...no.

6). "energy necessary to help knock Galactus into his metamorphosis chamber"

"He's staggered, we [BM, Spectrum and Carol] took him by surprise ..."

I underlined the relevant part.

If moving Galactus is this big of a feat, I can't imagine how awesome you think The Thing is!
https://imgur.com/a/02bjtQh

Look at him, exerting the force of multiple supernovas.

Hercules, too:
https://imgur.com/a/x6zP2Zs

etc.

7). Stealing solar radiation

I laughed, again.

So, for context...

Blue Marvel spends 2 pages standing still, focused [and also with Spectrum helping] right next to static patients to slowly draw out minuscule generic space radiation they accumulated from space exposure:
https://imgur.com/a/s3lexl2

This means, according to Damborg, that he can do this mid-fight to Superman, who has 35-years of raw bio-converted solar energy at a cellular level:
https://imgur.com/a/wABa0yO
That guy creaming himself is Eradicator, by the way.

Not to mention Superman can forcefully absorb solar energy into himself:
https://imgur.com/a/OvqfYpk

To call this no-limits fallacy is an insult to actual no-limits fallacies.

---

8). Low showings!

Surprise! Out of context scans, again. Superman against that same team, in the same issue, when he's focused...:
https://imgur.com/a/p6IVNYJ

Superman tanks lightning as a recreational activity:
https://imgur.com/a/EO7URay

...

Twisting my own words? That's new. Damborg left this part out:
"Superman has surpassed the original limitations imposed upon him by Byrne even during that period as things advanced"
Whatever limitations initially were wanted, they didn't hold:

Superman tanks Black Holes:
https://i.imgur.com/OVMfetL.jpg
Exploding sun-eaters:
https://imgur.com/a/nw2Ar75
Gets thrown inside a red sun:
https://imgur.com/a/35P7OaD
Superman takes the planet Krypton exploding, while he is vastly weakened:
https://imgur.com/a/45eV0hE
Takes continental-sized explosions in his hand unharmed:
https://imgur.com/a/P3HzcA5
Nukes point blank casually:
https://imgur.com/a/Ew1jxe0
Tanks Matrix-Supergirl's PSI-bolts:
https://imgur.com/a/87DVYvx
eeeeetc.

Next: Final Post!

My post part 1

Okay, so nothing too unexpected here…
Other than some unhealthy obfuscation.
Let’s talk about what’s wrong with your point of view my friend.
Some healthy twisting and lowballing
So I’m reading over your post and finding certain things that simply aren’t adding up. There’s more than I have the time to address but being my rebuttal post its important to do the most important ones at least:
1. Superman may have upgrades, but other characters don’t. Therefore, wowza what feats from Byrne era Superman to go against modern Orion!
First off, no.
Second off, that’s not true. Superman’s upgrades may have been spelled out for us the reader, this is true, but in order to keep up with Superman, every single character he faces has been subtly boosted from the Byrne era as well. It was natural comic progression, characters followed Superman closely behind. That “edge” that he should have had, was never, even once shown as a factor against other heroes. Should it have been? Well yeah, but it wasn’t, in the spirit of fairness I assume.
Here’s Byrne era Superman vs Orion:
https://imgur.com/GhIF42Z
https://imgur.com/Oq1qpaU
https://imgur.com/mzgOV5M
https://imgur.com/NCac1dA
https://imgur.com/WHhedL4
and here’s double amped Superman vs Orion
https://imgur.com/KBNNncK
https://imgur.com/q1FLXT4
https://imgur.com/q39OIm0
https://imgur.com/xgGoiqn
https://imgur.com/RZ4uGx6
Pretty even, eh? Dang, Orion must have been taking it easy on bloodlusted Superman if Superman in Byrne era…that’s because the amp didn’t carry through in the way you’re talking about.
There’s literally an example like this for every hero he’s fought, but I hope my point is taken now.

2. Sentry is weakened, Anti-Man is weakened, everyone is weakened. Huzzah !
So in this area, I was a little surprised that Philo was going for Blue Marvel using weakness exploitation on Sentry, simply because that was never a well established weakness which unless otherwise mentioned, isn’t necessarily in place. Kind of like how a lot of writers vary on their treatment of kryptonite for Superman:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/3e16741fc296198808345a0721739135/tenor.gif?itemid=3510436

Thank you for providing that for me, you shouldn’t have. So he knocked out Sentry and the writer confirms that the anti-matter weakness was not his intention to be in play.

Now let’s talk anti-man.

The only time that there was any weakness exploitation in play, whatsoever, was during the “synching” effects that you pointed out, and I had already mentioned.

Other than that, it’s might vs might. And Anti-Man and Blue Marvel are both comparable in power, that much is true, it’s not unexpected for Blue Marvel to lose a round.

Here’s the whole fight of his fight vs the mighty Avengers, he was weakening so much that he could no longer maintain himself in this reality:
https://imgur.com/epCuTPL
https://imgur.com/Dlrm12p
https://imgur.com/RQEHhq9
https://imgur.com/3XVjUCD

This is the original show down with Blue Marvel:
https://imgur.com/z4kImix
https://imgur.com/Yl7oiJO
https://imgur.com/HhVsUAp
https://imgur.com/FSPDIQd
https://imgur.com/yllajua
https://imgur.com/FMNyDON
https://imgur.com/8nqmcmE
https://imgur.com/dlT0cae

Solo’d. And the fight was fought at super speed in many parts of it, for the record.

But why is this important? Because you tried to brush aside feats as if there was no merit to them. Under the guise of weakness exploitation, that anti-man has Blue Marvel as like walking kryptonite or something Which the author then confirms, is not part of the equation in THE COMIC ITSELF:

https://imgur.com/DRUrHGj

“He has to have a weakness !” “Reed its not having any effect!”

Would you look at that…

So I think its fair and safe to assume, that if there is no synching involved, its not weakness exploitation. And get this, its not even the kind of weakness exploitation that Philo is talking about:

Even with the synching of energies, the power of my Omni blast could raze the planet, in the same scan that Philo posted. We’ll talk more about that later.

Another little detail, you seem to have used this, as some sort of indication that Blue Marvel PUTTING THE SENTRY INTO SPACE, is not that impressive lol. This is what Marvel endured before that feat:
https://imgur.com/cgnJDRv
https://imgur.com/Dy8zvEq
https://imgur.com/pGJy2bQ
https://imgur.com/qCwI3Vh

Where the Sentry confirms he’s getting pushed to his limits, and STILL gets KO’d, in a comic with no confirmed weakness exploitation. That type of hit, would put Byrne Superman into a coma.

How can you, with any sense of shame, claim that Sentry dive bomb cheap shot Blue Marvel, who had just been attacked by arguable the strongest super human team on the planet, including a serious sentry himself, resisted the KO for longer than he should have, is any form of win lol? If anything, it’s another feat for Blue Marvel 👆

And since we’re on that note, I am not talking about Yahweh lol. But the creature that Blue Marvel trapped, is still universal. I mentioned it was weakened, because it was, but describing itself as the “Maker” or God, puts him solidly in the cosmic hierarchy.

My Post Part 2

3. Blue Marvel has no speed or reaction feats, because travel speed

Okay, this is always something that has bothered me, and its being brought up AGAIN. Travel speed = reaction speed.

Why? Because logic. Unless you or anyone else thinks that Blue Marvel is flying at a pace that keeps up with Kid Nova of all people, just blinded, screaming and crying from the disorientation of not being able to perceive his surrounds at this speed, then we must assume he’s able to steer, turn, and react while traveling at super high end speeds.

http://gifupnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jeremy-Clarkson-top-gear-speed-fast-face-reaction-car-funny.gif

This is not how Blue Marvel or any other hero flies lol.

Because they have the fortitude, and the mental speed to keep up with decisions at intense speeds.

But fine, you want super speed combat? Here:
https://imgur.com/pGJy2bQ

What a shocker, Sentry tries to blitz, and gets countered mid fight. It’s almost like he can keep up with super speed fighting….hm….

So when I post this:

https://imgur.com/AuVXbcd
https://imgur.com/DqtWWsV

It’s not an attempt to lie to any of you, I told you that the machine allows him to see all these things at once, but, and this is the important part

IT’S UP TO BLUE MARVEL’S MIND TO PROCESS IT

Imagine a telescope, that let you see, everything in the universe at once. We would be immediately overwhelmed. Yet Blue Marvel stared at it in the face with awe, able to keep up with the images. The machine didn’t amp his mental strength, it just gave him the means to do it.

So again, I reiterate, Blue Marvel will not be taken out so easy. It’s a feat on the level of this nonsense (which I was waiting for Philo to post):

https://imgur.com/a/W8zLDZW
https://imgur.com/a/1c8pTn8

Which while impressive, is probably the highest feat Superman has in his entire history, even compared to modern adaptations. Therefore, it cannot be taken as the standard easily achieved movement speed that Phil wants to believe. Superman doesn’t have to wait mentally decades every time this happens to him:

This makes a good transition point for me next topic.

The danger of repping Superman
So you drafted Superman, and with that comes a plethora of feats. I mentioned this in my first post, that I knew what was coming, a lot of high end feats from high end instances of Byrne era Superman. Here’s the issue, an issue that repping Blue Marvel does not apply to me. You get averaged out by a plethora of anti-feats.
Don’t get me wrong, I know this a battlezone, it is however not a screwattack Death Battle where Superman gets every good feat in his history and disregards the rest.
For every feat you posted, there is an equally shitty feat. That is the nature of Superman, especially in this era. Blue Marvel, is only high end. It’s his baseline, as a team buster and a notch above the rest.
So for every feat you post like Superman surviving some huge explosion, there is a feat like this:
https://imgur.com/4OV34bG
https://imgur.com/ekdRaJm
To put it into question. Why do you think Superman still has trouble clearing the high herald tier? Because of too many showings putting him down.

The Fight so far
So before I was rudely interrupted, as I said, Superman went for a super speed approach to start the fight off, only to find that I am shielded, very thoroughly, a very tough customer, faster than he thought, and hitting hard enough to hospitalize literally the highest of end heroes in Marvel.
For every hit you land on my shielded body:
https://imgur.com/sINXpwU
You’ll receive a team buster buster to the jaw.
Between my shields, my blasts, and my impeccable record against Supermen-esque characters, I feel fairly confident, that you’re in for the fight of your life….and sadly…you can’t go Doomsday killer on me 😉

[B] MISC[/B
Also as a little side note, lol at that overhype of Mon-El 😂
Drax isn’t far behind by that logic I suppose.
https://imgur.com/Y5rGR65
Blue Marvel was not himself in the first bout with King Hyperion, and it’s not a cheap shot if you literally alert the opponent before hitting him:
https://i.imgur.com/nRWP8Nx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dKIcP8q.jpg
Your move Philo.

Final Post Part 1
Okay, let’s bring this baby home.
This is the final post, so I want to stress a few things I missed in the rebuttal post real quick that I should have addressed but ran out of space for 👆 After which I’ll do a quick summary and we’ll call it good.
1. Some serious disregard for Blue Marvel’s energy manipulation.

I brought up the point that Marvel has the ability to drain solar energy should he wish to, and Philo responded with a scan of Superman forcefully reabsorbing solar energy from an opponent right next to him.

First off, there will no such opponent here, and Blue Marvel’s energy manipulation isn’t limited to stealing the radiation of the unconscious.

Blue Marvel can literally directly affect the brain through his abilities, as he demonstates by directly feeding antimatter waves into the brain of a new born watcher:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=34ta7w5&s=8#.W8ViLPb_qUk
http://oi58.tinypic.com/qyz5p1.jpg

Easily can be turned offensive.

Blue Marvel can easily see down to the Quark level, and he can manipulate energy on that level as well:
https://imgur.com/8IwkNde

https://imgur.com/pQZECB5

So it’s hardly unrealistic to believe my powers can deeply affect Superman. Spectrum isn’t even a physical bone and tissue being, yet she can be manipulated. Not only that, Blue Marvel actually matched the changing wavelengths of Spectrum, if I wanted to I could shift that to any form of light I want, including red sun radiation. But hey, I’m sure it wouldn’t work…right?

2. Blue Marvel’s energy projection

Well hello there, that’s a fine argument you’re making. But first off, the Hercules scene isn’t canon. Second off, this is still Galactus. He’s still Skyfather +++ and any amount of energy that allowed Blue Marvel to participate in knocking him back is quite the impressive feat.

Next, understand that just because Thanos’ weapons were also able to make Carol go binary that does not mean that Blue Marvel doesn’t possess some serious fire power to instantly allow her to ascend. It’s Thanos, it’s meant to be impressive. The exploding ship, I’ll give you that, dumb writing.

3. Blue Marvel’s record against Superman-like characters

Blue Marvel has had 3 separate fights against characters essentially matching Superman’s powerset, and came out on top. Yet these scenes were easily brushed aside without much regard for their integrity. Does that make sense to any of you? Good, it’s not just me then. The fact remains that Blue Marvel has a history of being able to contend with and beat characters of a similar powerset to Superman, let alone Byrne era Superman who is arguably on a lesser level to current hyperion and sentry. There is absolutely no reason for the most relevant examples out there, literally characters who are nearly exact duplicates of Superman, who use their powers to their fullest and still lose, be disregarded. And as a side note King Hyperion is not garbage as Phil likes to claim, there’s a reason he’s slaughtered countless Earth’s full of Thor’s and Hulk’s:
https://imgur.com/8vRF4FU
https://imgur.com/AVRzm14

And claims of his fight with juggernaut are highly exaggerated, he may have broken his hand by he also kicked out the unstoppable force of nature’s knee:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/93/d5/98/93d59828c6674d1d7378be4c14b309cf.jpg
And ripped his helmet off with heat vision.

Which Blue Marvel at his lowest level of confidence blocked.

https://imgur.com/QZ0d3vR

And then got up and proceeded to kick the crap out of him, mano a mano, speed for speed.

It’s very impressive any way you want to look at it.

Those were just a few things that I wanted to continue to clear up, next we need to put a subject to rest. Speed.
I want everyone to notice a certain trend with Phil’s scans. Superman may have some pretty hefty speed feats, but they never come into play when he’s fighting. Outpunching lobo? That’s great and all but…it’s lobo. It’s not flash or anything of that nature.
Phil claims that Blue Marvel would be a statue to Superman. And I’ve spent the debate posting scans of why that simiply cannot be true. There simply aren’t enough examples prove Superman is comfortably able to perform those kinds of tactics. There’s always a counter showing.
To suggest that Superman has that sort of perception is to disregard every fight where he has multiple options to get out of the way, and takes a hit. At first one tends to think, well it’s probably because he’s holding back. But there are situations when he’s genuinely in danger and still gets tagged, it’s because Superman doesn’t walk around with that level of perception. That can be the only conclusion, he’s just as vulnerable as most super speed bricks are, and he’s got his whole history against him vs that one feat posted by Philo lol.
Just more random instances of attacks he should have been able to dodge:
https://imgur.com/5wtsr7T
https://imgur.com/tn9vqYq
Looking right at Etrigan.
https://imgur.com/senrOGj
https://imgur.com/Jqmi4RI
Literally on the ground next to a child, scrambling to react from his opponent with no notable super speed
https://i.imgur.com/T3CwCZT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5T6u3ZW.jpg
Hit mid blitz. There is absolutely no reason a guy with Blue Marvel’s record cannot do the same. None at all.
Are we to assume that Superman waits for months at a time to feel the impact of these blows? Or is it more fair to assume that Superman has good reaction time, but is very much vulnerable to attacks at this stage in his career? I will let you all decide. -tips fedora-
And for added emphasis, it’s important to revisit the idea that Blue Marvel does not have impressive levels of Super speed:
https://imgur.com/eo6AIyf
https://imgur.com/4ZXHmuS
https://imgur.com/2kDWgnV
https://imgur.com/OtYID08
From New York to Greece and back in minutes, while considering that he also had to defeat Ultimo before returning and safeguarding the citizens he damaged.
But this just travel speed right? Wrong, he’s operating at an incredibly fast level, he has to be or he wouldn’t even be able to react to where he’s going. It’s just common sense guys.

Final Post Part 2

Once Again, the Dangers of Repping Superman
A main point I’ve been trying to push and make clear is the fact that Superman’s many appearances severely hamper him, because it casts doubt on just what level he’s at. For every explosion he no sells, he has a genetically modified monkey hurting him to counter balance it:
https://imgur.com/QdGxJYi
https://imgur.com/zoGF1Oq
He even got blitzed in the second scan for goodness sake.
I want this to be abundantly clear THIS ISN’T ME TRYING TO LOWBALL, IT SIMPLY COMES WITH THE TERRITORY WHEN YOU HAVE SO MANY APPEARANCES
It’s not fair to only give him the highs without consideration of the lower showings 👆
Blue Marvel doesn’t have that problem, as a consistently high end character with little no less impressive showings.
At the same time that Superman can get knocked out by a 40 megaton bomb, Blue Marvel tanked a 50 megaton hydrogen bomb (on the lower end for hydrogen bombs, but hey)
https://imgur.com/PKH0E43
Note also he easily moves an asteroid the size of Arkansas, which shows the kind of strength level he operates on as a bare minimum.
This would be a good time to post some counter feats for Blue Marvel, but there are none. It’s the benefit of repping a character with 1.5 showings, his average is incredibly high.
Blue Marvel even with his few showings has the high showings to go toe to toe with Superman’s extra level:
https://imgur.com/tk18gIP
https://imgur.com/I1OKGO8

Even a fraction of Shuma Gorath’s power is insane, and Blue Marvel one shot it. This is a guy packing some serious power, makes a little more sense how he one shot Sentry eh?
The Fight Comes to a Close
To reiterate how the fight has gone so far, it hasn’t changed a whole lot.

I am of course shielded with my aura as I was when I sent super amped anti-man flying:

Or also here:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/ibjc48.jpg

And he getting stronger by the minute, while the depowering effects of the heroes were have no effect AS CAN BE READ IN THE SCAN ITSELF still hard to believe Philo missed that. Simple mistake no doubt…
I also have extra shielding strong enough contain the weakened maker, and I let loose the most powerful Omni-Blast I am capable of:

With the power to raze the planet, as confirmed by Reed Richard himself:
https://i.imgur.com/HmCeMDS.jpg
Please don’t disregard just the kind of level that Blue Marvel was operating at.
IF superman is okay after that, he’s been taken out by less, especially when not ready for it, he finds that Blue Marvel is not that slow,

Just like Sentry who tried to blitz him figured out.
He’ll see that even without shielding Blue Marvel is made of tougher stuff than he’s used to:
https://i.imgur.com/cgnJDRv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Dy8zvEq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qCwI3Vh.jpg

He’ll his heat vision is not penetrating my shielding, remember that his heat vision used to literally heat up the stuff he looked at it, it wasn’t even a full beam, and that he’s getting his again, and again and again. By both molecule damaging attacks and punches capable of putting down the toughest Marvel has to offer, Hulk, Sentry, Hyperion, you name it.

As has been shown, by Byrne Superman’s entire career.

AND THEN AT THE END OF IT ALL,
THIS IS FOR BRAN!!!

One shot.

And I will win 👆
Thank you Phil, thank you judges and everyone who read along, I hope you had fun like I did. Win or lose, it’s always nice battling you Phil, hopefully we can do a trilogy in the future!

Also I see I still have a few characters so here’s one more:
Sends literally the most powerful version of Maestro Hulk ever flying:

That is all lol

Phil's Final Post:

- Finale -

The Fast and the Statue

All roads lead back to this.

But first..
Imagine posting these 2:
*Flying in a literal straight line up in the atmosphere
[and hyping it to hell, by taking Nova's highest top-speed space flying, when in Earth's atmosphere he is nowhere near that fast:http://i.imgur.com/o2anHmZ.jpg]
*Flying to the moon in minutes [lol!]
....and saying "Travel speed = reaction speed".
Then he tries again to steer towards "he fought characters with superspeed, so he has superspeed" by showing Sentry tackling him, start to punch and his punches, uh, being blocked.
This is legitimately what carver argues for Hulk. WWH vs Sentry, the exact same thing - only Hulk actually hit him in flight.
It's like we just started reading comics.

Cosmic awareness.
Damborg is trying to conflate cosmic awareness with superspeed - when it's anything but. These are two separate powers.
Cosmic Awareness is akin to telepathically communincating with the Universe:
https://imgur.com/a/mLuo5NI
"I am with with the Universe"
http://i.imgur.com/tSJB1V0.jpg
It's cheat codes for knowledge:
https://imgur.com/a/nVRFkO2
In his own words, what the machine that amped him did::
https://imgur.com/a/5LrJbAN
"PSIONIC RESONATOR to EXPAND my CONSCIOUSNESS"
In Blue Marvel's case, he used it have an overview of everything and see the fact that Eternity is in shackles screaming from the First Firament [think Pre-Eternity Eternity]
https://imgur.com/a/y6CT4Xx
That's...it. Cosmic Awareness allowed him to literally "see the bigger picture".

---
Now..

Judges, I assume you've seen/been in some fights. Vizualize a fight where one of the fighters sees and moves just 20 times faster than the other.

Here's how a high speed punch that takes less than a second in normal time looks at 0.05x:

YouTube video

This is how you see your opponent moving, while you are in normal time.

You could breakdance around Tyson in his prime.

80 times faster, and you could go to the bathroom and come back and he barely moves. (put on 0.25x to see)

Make it 1,000 times faster, and the opponent is frozen in time and doesn't even move.

Superman is on such an absurd level of speed, that his "video" is 0.000000001x [1,000,000,000 times faster]. That is the speed where he sees even light in slow motion. I was going for overkill here, but it's not even needed. Superman could see the world in microseconds (1,000,000 times faster) and he'd still percieve Blue Marvel as a statue.

Clark was reacting in microseconds in college:
https://imgur.com/IyR6L1C

Not that it's anything special, but I always like this scene from that same college period where he takes on a whole army as an invisible force
https://imgur.com/a/MwGo1hQ

Just in case it needs to be said about Superman's flight speed - he travels light-years in moments (he was out of oxygen) to reach a solar-system at "speed that even gods would envy" in his first day in space:
https://imgur.com/a/ZDexPsL

Outraces New Gods Radion explosion from a standing position:
https://imgur.com/a/mU92xMp

Outruns energy attacks and blitzes energy beings:
https://imgur.com/a/V3ANlZs

Percieves and reacts in nanosecond increments:
https://imgur.com/a/q6wrVoI

etc.

Even in what could be considered a lower showing of speed - a marathon race with Flash around the Earth:
https://imgur.com/a/luIFCB7
1.Superman is equal to a Flash that throws "a few hundred thousand punches" in moments [page 15]
2.They're running at several times the speed of sound, and accelerate further while exhausted crossing half the entire Atlantic in seconds [page 20-21]. That's hundreds of times the speed of sound.
3.Also notice that they're zig-zagging, and not going in a straight line [Siberia, Egypt, Spain etc.] with obstacles, Mxy trying to rig the game [magical wall hitting Superman, animating etc. ]

This fight is not even a matter of believing or not that Blue Marvel has superspeed. Even if you think has some measure of it [with no feats at all], there's degrees to it. You can adjust either ends of the spectrum, but the difference is so large, that it doesn't end with anything other than him being a statue.

Blue Marvel will never connect. None of his attacks will even start.

To put it short, this is how Superman sees the fight:

With a totally different outcome 🙂

- Comparison -

The boy who cried wolf

Judges, you've seen him make numerous statements throughout this thread that don't hold up under scrutiny.

Don't hold the empty boasting as facts.

He hasn't read the issues, made obvious by the contextless scans he uses, and he's just repeating what DS has said here:
https://tinyurl.com/yckodrha

He doesn't have the showings to surpass, so he uses an imaginary average that he hopes you buy, due to preconcieved notion of Byrne-era Superman.

Byrne Supes has has one of the best records in fights of any character in any era.
I lol'd at "every single character he faces has been subtly boosted from the Byrne era as well." a.k.a. "believe my bullshit"
Do we have Byrne-era:
Captain Marvel?
Martian Manhunter?
Lobo?
Etrigan?
Maxima?
etc.
We don't. Because they're the same person, at the same powerlevel. Do they have more feats? Yes. But they have had NO CANON UPGRADE.

Damborg continues to misleaed about Anti-Man. The fight he posted? Notice in the first scan that the date is 1962? That's because the Anti-Man he beat is the original, unamped one. He dissipated in his fight with the Avengers because his molecular structure is unstable, and he was turning into a wormhole between the Negative Zone and normal one [thus him getting more and more powerful], not because he was weak:
https://imgur.com/a/PA1mJKq
He's talking about different versions of Anti-Man, and conflating them into one. It couldn't have been made more clear that in current day he was superior, and they needed weakness exploatation:
https://imgur.com/a/fSMZe7z
They wore him down using BM's plan, then Adam took him in the atmosphere and synced (for the 2nd time).

Damborg has two shield scans:
a). One is broken by King Hyperion in a single punch + HV combo.
b). The other, which takes considerable more time to make [which he obviously won't have here] was against a depowered ghost/echo and he needed an amp THE MOMENT he started fighting back.
"But the creature that Blue Marvel trapped, is still universal."
I legitimately lol'd at him still going on about this. Judges, the scans have been posted. All this explicitly ghost/echo did in the entire story is get hurt by Black Panther's daggers and teleport once.

Superman's record:
- matched the Weird [high-end team buster]
- beaten Mon-El [high-end Daxamite]
- beaten Lobo repeatedly who has easily has the most absurd feats of strength and durability in comics during this same period he is fighting Superman
- KOd Maxima with a backhand
- KOd Etrigan [for reference: https://imgur.com/a/H1nM1pg]
- pulverized Bizarro
- beaten Captain Marvel:
https://imgur.com/a/hwkv8RV
- KOs Mongul while weakened::
https://imgur.com/a/RoyuvLb
- treated the entire JLI team as fodder [Bloodwynd [amped Martian Manhunter], Yellow Lantern Guy etc.]:
https://imgur.com/a/qlaRViE
- handled teams of heroes [Mon-El, Green Lantern etc.] gang-pilling him without being hurt:
https://imgur.com/a/L5uKwll
Compare this to Blue Marvel getting damaged by Iron Man and Ares:
https://imgur.com/a/VxY3uKW

Superman that is trying to help and not fight getting downed by Barda's rod?. When he fights, Superman plows through Kalibak's rod and shatters it:
https://imgur.com/a/Rdc41wz
[for reference: https://imgur.com/a/xHPi8Qu]

Just in case it's brought [you never know!], Superman's heat vision can easily destroys anti-energy:
https://imgur.com/a/uIC08in

Orion! Surprisingly, there's CONTEXT!
Superman's powers don't function without his full active brain. So when he had amnesia in that story, he went from not being able to lift a rock, to once being told that he is the son of Darkseid, gaining super-strength and flight and engaging Orion, but he was never at his Superman powerlevel [this is why you don't see him use heat vision and the like]. He didn't even know his powers. He was brainwashed into thinking he is the "Son of Darkseid". Since it's at hand, Superman vs Darkseid [retconned as Desaad in disguise), but still worth some scans:
https://imgur.com/a/a4lStHB

Blue Marvel's record:
- lost the 1st round to King Hyperion [dp Juggernaut level], then won the second
- losing to Sentry [whose powers were not 100%] until he stopped, flash KOd him into the atmosphere, then Sentry came back and won
- won against ultimate Hulk in oe uppercut
- Had an inconclusive fight with main Hyperion
- Has a single panel where we see him and Pagan fight that we have zero context on.
- Was getting outmanuvered by Miss America:
https://imgur.com/a/GQGim72
The same Miss America who was getting outmanuvered by Ultimate Captain America:
https://imgur.com/a/EmYZeQJ
- Having problems with random Chitauri that Carol was handling:
https://imgur.com/a/Vkd562m

Hm.

----

Thanks for the match, Anny and thanks to the judges for the effort 😉

*And that concludes this leg of the BZ. Judges, please PM your verdicts to me directly.

Closing the thread for now. I'll open it back up once I have the rulings.

**The Verdicts**

deathslash wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 12:41 PM:
Finally got through with reading the final posts and boy, I think I'm gonna need a nap after this to fully process everything (and the kitchen sink) that got thrown into their arguments.

Phil and Damb both had some solid opening posts and some even more impressive rebuttals. Unfortunately though, this fight simply reconfirmed what I had originally believed. It's no secret, I've always been an advocate of Blue Marvel. With that said though, I've always maintained that Superman can beat him simply because of higher end showings. Unfortunately though, those higher end showings have always been the ones from non-Bryne/new52/rebirth Superman. Damb made a legitimate point that I've always believed; Bryne Supes has too many low showings for them to simply be discounted. I also don't believe that speed will come into play as much as Phil believes. Yes, he's faster than BM, but by such an incredible margin? When he gets tagged by every other threat out there? When Adam has gone to to toe with actual speedsters? How can we simply look at space cheese with no application in combat and discard combat speed with no application in space cheese? I realize that Phil is in control of him, but there's a difference between space cheese and combat feats and Bryne Supes simply doesn't have the sort of reaction time in combat that he's implying he does.

There were some inconsistencies in Phildo's argument as well:

For example, Phil said that BM got outmaneuvered by Chavez and then brought up how she couldn't bring down Ultimate Cap. What he failed to notice though, was that in that very same comic where America Chavez gets wrecked by Cap, she also get easily beaten on/slapped aside/blitzed by Ultimate Hulk; the same one that Adam casually oneshots.

Likewise, there were multiple missed opportunities with Damborg.

Damb didn't bring up Adam knocking out Namor IIRC and also didn't bring up how Odinson immediately stood down once Adam got back from fighting Ultimo.

At the end of the day, I believe that speed is in favor of Superman with strength and durability too close to really call. The real deciding factor is Adams energy manipulation. He performed energy surgery on Monica during the middle of a fight, manipulated the energy of Anti-man, can make energy shields (even when they are broken, he can just make them again and that certainly offers more protection than having to take the punch), and manipulated the energy of the mind of an infant Watcher.

TL;DR: I'm giving this to Damborgson/Blue Marvel. An arguably more solid argument, significantly less low showings, being a physical peer of Superman, and having access to weakness exploitation gives him my vote.

x1 Damborg

CosmicComet wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 06:14 PM:
Dear God,
What a BZ we had here. I've had the privelage of judging two battlezones by these prize fighters now and the rematch did
not disappoint. Dambo came for blood this time and both are limping away aching the way I see it. He covered it all,
with as few appearances as Adam has, Damb stretched those showings and subsequent power-scaling to the absolute limit
and for that he has to be commended. There wasn't a single facet of this fight that he did not give a convincing argument
for...except for one. And that was the one that cost him here in my view. Philo's tactic was largely one dimensional,
focusing heavily on how important speed was for this fight (that's not to short change him on all the other nifty showings,
just that speed was his main weapon and he leaned heavily into it), but for me that ended up being the right call in this
fight. It's tiring I know, but speed really does kill, and Dambo did as well as he could do to cover for his character's
weaknesses in this area. BM took minutes to reach the moon, whereas light would only take 1.3 seconds. And he took a few panels
to reach Kid Nova who got to high orbit, panels that had actual dialogue in them, so I could only take them to mean that
it took them seconds or so to reach high orbit. These are massively hypersonic feats don't get me wrong, but that's just
not cutting it vs what Philo brought for Supes. The cosmic awareness giving machine more or less came across as a mental stress
test/strength test vs an actual speed feat, if that was a more concrete feat I definitely would have given Adam the win here.
Besides that we had a good bit of equivocating regarding the speed debate, trying to argue loosely based on hitting those
with confirmed FTL reactions, and in comics that just isn't reliable in and of itself without more info,
unless you like FTL reaction time Colossus (You know, the guy Ares would pulverize). But again, Dambo did an excellent job,
even on the speed category, he was just too outgunned, but he used his limited ammo excellent. Damb did convince me however
that Adam held a large upper hand as far as sheer power goes. He successfully planted doubts about just how high Bryne Era could
go. He was right to point out how editorially DC was just super shy about high showings at that time as they were still
trying to distance themselves from Silver age shenanigans. Yeah, Byrne Era Supes still has access to some great scaling
such as through Mon-El, but Dambo rightfully countered that with the Drax showing. If Adam was even 1/4 as fast as Supes, I would
have given him this win, likely with a combo of AOE energy attacks, draining, attrition etc, but that just wasn't proven.

Damb showed immense improvement here, perhaps even more than Philo could handle in a more even pool of showings in the future. 😉
But for now, this was pretty much like Obi Wan getting the higher ground on Anakin. (Ol' lucky one trick pony. 😠 )

So yeah, it was tough but I'm going with Phil

NemeBro wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 10:03 PM:
All right, my verdict:

Great battlezone guys, probably the most fun BZ/tourney I've read. I don't have too much time to elaborate so I'll be fairly brief, but can expand on my verdict later if you want. First of all, let me say that though Byrnerman vs. Blue Marvel was the focal point being disputed, with Dambo and Phil attempting to prove their chosen champion the victor, but I'd say Phil was also trying to disprove the idea that Byrne, though he might have started out that way, is the "weak" Superman, and Dambo, perhaps inadvertently, was trying to prove that BM is indeed a top tier Marvel hero, which I've seen disputed. And I'd say both succeeded at that, so good job there guys. Phil provided a solid line of feats worthy of a herald, and Dambo at least convinced me that Blue Marvel deserves to stand alongside Marvel's best.

But I'm going to have to cast my vote for Phil. I was convinced that Blue Marvel has super speed, sure, but not that his speed, particularly his ability to act, react, and think at super speed, was nearing Superman's level based on the feats posted. Dambo did provide some anti-feats to try to lower Superman's average, but the problem I had with some of them is that the assailants Superman struggled with were essentially an unknown quantity. He was slightly hurt by some superhuman monkey sure, but how weak was that monkey? By comparison, though Phil posted less low feats for BM, the ones posted were of a relatively known quantity, featuring him having less impressive showings against America Chavez or a Chitauri. And ultimately, though it is crude, I saw more evidence of Superman's relative highs, particularly his speed, than the lows he apparently has an abundance of.

It was a good showing all-around boys, but once again, I'm going with Phil. 👆

-Pr- wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 02:29 AM:
Before I get in to it, just want to say nice work to the both of you. Some really good stuff in your posts, and it was an interesting read. Good arguments, crap gifs (and shitting on the WWE, really?), but in general I saw enough that my mind was changed several times while I was reading it all. Gonna keep this as short as I can as I don't think anyone wants to read me waffle on about how great both debators were and how they all made stellar points. They did. It was great. Now, the fight:

I tried to not let my own Superman knowledge come to the fore during the reading, but it was still fun to see something Philo would post and think "well, I don't know if I would have said that..." or to snicker at times I felt like Damborg was straight up lying. In the end though, it was going to come down to which man was in general more convincing, and again, that shifted at several points during my reading.

Blue Marvel... Is an interesting character. I was quite clear about how I knew nothing of the character, so every scan posted by these two, barring repetition obviously, was one that had a very good chance of me never having seeng it before. The arguments and the constant posting of new scans to frame previous ones in a new light kept me from making my judgment too early, and even as I read the final arguments, I didn't know which way I was going to swing.

The cracks start to appear in the final few posts, for me. Both trying to discredit the other's claims of what their character is capable of, both making claims I didn't buy, but in the end, I felt like Philo just did a better job of making his case. Damborg's "Superman's low feats bring him down" argument, while having some merit in this case, just wasn't made convincingly enough for my tastes. Nor was his claim that Marvel had the kind of speed that would allow him to contend with the ridiculousness Philo brought to the table. The argument that Marvel could physically beat Superman was an interesting one too, but again, the question is always going to remain as to what Superman's "high" feats do to toughen him up. On the other hand, Philo's sometimes massive exaggerations still contained an argument that I just didn't feel Damborg did enough to discredit.

In the end I feel like Blue Marvel's lack of showings is what hurt him. It's not fair, but I think it IS one of the deciding factors. Less low feats is nice, but it also means less high feats, and the ones that he has just aren't, from what I've seen, enough to turn the argument in his favour for me. At least, based on what you guys have shown me.

So again, my vote goes to Philo.

x3 Phil

The Winner: Phil

Fantastic work to all involved. This went ridiculously smooth on all ends. 👆

Nice job fellas.

Thank you 👆

Thanks Dmills 🙂