Originally posted by cdtm"Giant Spiders".
I'd like to see it.Smaug was taken down by a arrow, all's said and done. Wouldn't have scratched the Apostle.
Another thing, is most of the LOTR enemies aren't Balrog level anyways. They're Orcs, and Trolls, and giant spiders, and undead things. Nothing Guts hasn't fought before.
Bud you know Ungoliant beat Morgoth and trapped Tulkas, right? Tulkas, one of the Valar who defeated Morgoth in single combat.
Btw, just for the record, I don't think Guts is taking on most of the higher ups, but combatively, Sauron is legitimately one of the weakest Maiar and is known more for his deception and cunning, when he does take people on 1v1 he usually gets ****ed up.
In fact, Gandalf/Olorin at full power would also give the dude a great fight, may even defeat him.
Infallible the Maia are not, the more they take on people the more they take on mortals, the more they seem to get ****ed up. Guts sword also exists on an astral plane, so anything cut by his blade, whether it's the witch king, the balrog, gods, demons, everything is getting ****ed up by that blade.
Originally posted by NemeBroALSO I'd like to say, Grunbeld in his second form is not getting hurt by Smaug, not even close, his skin is made of material much stronger then even diamonds, so at best they can't hurt each other. Guts, however, if he gets close, is chopping that dragon to pieces, he can definitely chop that MF's head clean off if he gets close enough, and thats without the Berserk armor, with it, you now have a dude that is strong enough to hit with a force as great, if not greater then what Smaug can produce as a whole, can't be killed unless Smaug tries to eat him (really bad ****in move), if Smaug tries smacking him, he gets that limb cut off, if he tries eating him, he either gets his head cut off or cut in half, there are literally so many ways Guts can kill that MF it'll make your head spin.
Start shaking in your boots kid, when I get home you're going down.
Ancalagon is a completely different story and will roast him in 3.5 seconds.
Originally posted by NemeBro
So a few LotR feats of note from some of its more formidable characters."‘There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. [b]I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.
Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell."
- The Two Towers, page 111, Book 3, chapter 5, "The White Rider"Gandalf threw down the Balrog and broke the side of Zirakzigil, one of the great peaks of the Misty Mountains.
Smaug is ultimately irrelevant to this thread but someone else brought him so I will address him as well. All quotes are from the Hobbit, obviously.
"Thieves! Fire! Murder! Such a thing had not happened since he first came to the Mountain! His (Smaug's) rage passes description - the sort of rage that is only seen when rich folk that have more than they can enjoy suddenly lose something that they have long had but have never before used or wanted. His fire belched forth, the hall smoked, he shook the mountain-roots." Chapter 12 ("Inside Information"😉; Pages 263-264 (HarperCollins, 1998 Edition)
Smaug shakes the mountain to its roots. How big was this mountain?
We're About nine miles from Smaug to the furthest point of the mountain.
"They had hardly gone any distance down the tunnel when a blow smote the side of the Mountain like the crash of battering-rams made of forest oaks and swung by giants. The rock boomed, the walls cracked and stones fell from the roof on their heads[...]while behind them outside they heard the roar and rumble of Smaug's fury. He was breaking rocks to pieces, smashing wall and cliff with the lashings of his huge tail..." Chapter 12; Pages 280-281
Showcasing his brute strength once more, a tail whip from Smaug can crumble the side of the mountain and cause the walls inside its tunnels to crack.
"With a shriek that deafened men, felled trees and split stone, Smaug shot spouting into the air, turned over and crashed down from on high in ruin. Full on the town he fell. His last throes splintered it to sparks and gledes. The lake roared in. A vast steam leapt up, white in the sudden dark under the moon. There was a hiss, a gushing whirl, and then silence. And that was the end of Smaug and Esgaroth, but not of Bard." Chapter 14; Page 301
His death throes destroy the town of Esgaroth. The least impressive showing, but noteworthy due to it being literally while dying.
As far as the Black Arrow killing Smaug, the Black Arrow is implicitly a magical dwarven weapon and it hit Smaug's sole weak point on his underbelly.
And as for Sauron? Lol.
"Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would."
- Akallabêth; Silmarillion p 280Sauron is able to defend the island of Numenor from the wrath of the Valar, a council of angels who can reshape continents with their power. He managed this feat while separated from his ring.
No material character in Berserk has feats of power on par with these. Guts had to put forth a mighty effort to stop a falling mast. Gandalf and the Balrog break mountainsides in their fights, Smaug can do the same, and Sauron can keep the island of Numenor from sinking with his power, among other feats I won't bother finding the quotes for at the moment. Guts would outperform more grounded characters like Aragorn very easily, but he's not quite up to par with the more powerful Elves, dragons, or Maiar.
As for the thread itself, Guts should be able to get to Mount Doom without much trouble. Whether or not he could bear to throw the ring inside the fire is another matter. I'm of the mind that Guts, who already has mightily struggled to repress his darkest impulses and just barely averted becoming a monster as bad as the apostles he fights, would not be able to resist both of these evil forces working in concert. He would find himself unwilling to destroy the One Ring, and unlike Frodo, he will easily be able to kill Gollum so he can't take the ring and proceed to accidentally fall into the fires. [/B]
I've heard a lot of this, actually.
The thing is, for all this talk of power, you simply don't see it in the main story. Sauron, he gets stabbed through by a sword, while wearing the One Ring. Gandalf, he runs from common trolls and flees from Forrest fires.
Maybe they were simply weakened, for whatever reason. Not in their "final form". Fair enough, but that's what Guts will be facing in this scenerio. Not a Demi-God who can bust mountains, but a hoard that couldn't stop a hobbit and his party.
Guts should never even SEE the Balrog, because he's in no way flee from the army Gandalf and his charges were, who Gandalf himself really should have been able to fend off, but for whatever reason, didn't.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Btw, just for the record, I don't think Guts is taking on most of the higher ups, but combatively, Sauron is legitimately one of the weakest Maiar and is known more for his deception and cunning, when he does take people on 1v1 he usually gets ****ed up.
"Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel."
Literally right at the beginning of the book. Sauron is undoubtedly one of the strongest of the Maiar. You brought up his defeats earlier but not only were some out of context, but the rest of those characters are among the strongest in the Legendarium.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
In fact, Gandalf/Olorin at full power would also give the dude a great fight, may even defeat him.
Not a chance. Gandalf has admitted his own inferiority to Sauron.
Originally posted by ares834
"Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel."Literally right at the beginning of the book. Sauron is undoubtedly one of the strongest of the Maiar. You brought up his defeats earlier but not only were some out of context, but the rest of those characters are among the strongest in the Legendarium.
Not a chance. Gandalf has admitted his own inferiority to Sauron.
Fair enough on the last one, but that could mean anything, it could mean that he was Melkor's greatest ASSET as opposed to his greatest warrior.
Originally posted by cdtmGandalf chose not to use his powers to the fullest, its not his fight, the whole reason the Maiar and Valar didn't get involved is because they wanted humans to fight for themselves.
I've heard a lot of this, actually.The thing is, for all this talk of power, you simply don't see it in the main story. Sauron, he gets stabbed through by a sword, while wearing the One Ring. Gandalf, he runs from common trolls and flees from Forrest fires.
Maybe they were simply weakened, for whatever reason. Not in their "final form". Fair enough, but that's what Guts will be facing in this scenerio. Not a Demi-God who can bust mountains, but a hoard that couldn't stop a hobbit and his party.
Guts should never even SEE the Balrog, because he's in no way flee from the army Gandalf and his charges were, who Gandalf himself really should have been able to fend off, but for whatever reason, didn't.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Gandalf chose not to use his powers to the fullest, its not his fight, the whole reason the Maiar and Valar didn't get involved is because they wanted humans to fight for themselves.
Which seems like the same fan pandering given with Palpatine and Vader.
Doesn't matter, Gut doesn't needs to beat Maiar and Valar non combatants. He just need to clear the main campaign.
Originally posted by cdtmIt's outright stated, hell he doesn't even go by his real name, he uses the name "Gandalf".
Which seems like the same fan pandering given with Palpatine and Vader.Doesn't matter, Gut doesn't needs to beat Maiar and Valar non combatants. He just need to clear the main campaign.
He could've ended the Witch-King but got beaten by him, he could've easily killed that Balrog with little to no effort, but he didn't.
Hell even today Gothmog vs Sauron is still debated (Gothmog being the most powerful Balrog that ever lived).
But yes, mortals can beat Maiar, but they really shouldn't be able to, it goes against everything they are and what they represent and what they can do.
Granted they are the most powerful of their kind one they do take on Maiar 1v1, but still.
I think the way it works is, Olorin is at the bottom of the Maiar, with Eonwe being at the top undoubtedly.
But Guts could probably take on the Ringwraiths by himself, yeah, he's faced similar odds against similar creatures and still one.
Originally posted by cdtm
Guts should never even SEE the Balrog, because he's in no way flee from the army Gandalf and his charges were, who Gandalf himself really should have been able to fend off, but for whatever reason, didn't.
From the film's standpoint: Guts would face the Balrog, Gandalf was forced to go through Moria because Saruman conjured a snowstorm and lighting and blocked the mountain pass (Caradhras).
YouTube video
In the book it's different, Gandalf wanted to cut through Moria, as he believed it would have been safer and more covert, believing the Orcs were shattered after the Battle of Five Armies and possibly Dwarves still made their home somewhere in Moria, while Aragorn wanted to take Caradharas and he won the argument initially, but heavy snow made them change course.