Originally posted by Emperordmb
The point Jordan Peterson is making is that there's an acceptable level of sexual tension in the workplace. If people say there is no acceptable level of sexual tension in the workplace to the point where even hugging shouldn't be allowed then women shouldn't dress in a way that accentuates their sexual characteristics, and that such a thing is clearly a repressive solution. He's not saying "either anything goes or maoist china with uniforms" he's advocating for a middle ground.The point he was making about the rules isn't that things like sexual assault or blatant harassment are justifiable, it's that there's obviously blurred lines where it isn't obvious.
Take for example a joke of a sexual nature that when told among a group of exclusively male coworkers doesn't constitute sexual harassment, and is what it is, a joke. If you introduce a woman into the group does it suddenly become sexual harassment if she is not the object of the joke? Does it become sexual harassment based on whether or not she subjectively takes offense to it?
What about a level of flirtation? If some really hot guy flirts with a girl and she's into it, that's not sexual harassment. But if some fat weird looking neckbeard does exactly the same thing and she's not into it is that suddenly sexual harassment? How do you know if someone's into it or not without trying? The point of flirtation is to see if the other person is into you.
Or take comments on someone's appearance for example. If a guy compliments a female coworker on her appearance is that harassment? How is that determined? Is it based on the level of offense she takes? Is that objectification to take interest in someone else's appearance? If nobody is supposed to take any interest in your appearance, why dress yourself up?
Is it not the behavior but whether or not someone takes offense to the behavior? Because that is in fact an impossible and subjective standard to set policy around.
I will answer every one of your questions:
Q: Take for example a joke of a sexual nature that when told among a group of exclusively male coworkers doesn't constitute sexual harassment, and is what it is, a joke. If you introduce a woman into the group does it suddenly become sexual harassment if she is not the object of the joke? Does it become sexual harassment based on whether or not she subjectively takes offense to it?
A: No. But if she says those jokes make her uncomfortable and they continue to tell them around her, that becomes sexual harassment and most companies would put them on disciplinary action up to and including termination.
Q: What about a level of flirtation? If some really hot guy flirts with a girl and she's into it, that's not sexual harassment. But if some fat weird looking neckbeard does exactly the same thing and she's not into it is that suddenly sexual harassment?
A: No. It only becomes sexual harassment if she declines but he continues. Hence the word "harassment." One offer to pursue a romantic relationship and then done. Also, the offer cannot be sexually explicit, either. You cannot say, "Let's bang after work." That's goes straight to sexual harassment as it goes beyond any normal human decency to expect that be okay in the workplace.
Q: How do you know if someone's into it or not without trying? The point of flirtation is to see if the other person is into you.
A: How about not being an idiot at work and keeping it professional? Why not try that? Seems easier to do. But if you cannot resist, see my previous answer. Ask once. If declined, don't ask again: ever again.
Q: If nobody is supposed to take any interest in your appearance, why dress yourself up?
A: This one is easy and I already covered it in depth. Better looking, more success. It's that simple.
Q: 1. Or take comments on someone's appearance for example. If a guy compliments a female coworker on her appearance is that harassment? 2. How is that determined? Is it based on the level of offense she takes? Is that objectification to take interest in someone else's appearance? If nobody is supposed to take any interest in your appearance, why dress yourself up?
A: 1. Depends on the compliment. "That blouse makes your boobs look great." No. "That blouse looks great." Yes. That's okay. This is extremely obvious to anyone who is not an idiot. But overly complimenting someone can take it too far. 10 compliments on someone's appearance each day can constitute harassment. Perhaps not sexual. But harassment. 2. Covered this already.
Q: Is it not the behavior but whether or not someone takes offense to the behavior?
A: Yes. Covered this already. If they don't like it, don't do it. Don't be sexually explicit ever. If you continue after being told to stop, that's harassment. If it is in pursuit of a relationship, that's sexual harassment. And if she's scared of you even after one attempt and you get talked to by HR, that's her choice as well (she doesn't have to ever give you a hard "no" or hard decline. She may even feel too scared to reject you and go straight to HR - that's the risk you take trying to puruse a relationship with someone at work you (no "EmperorDMB" you, ambiguous you) dumbass).
Q: Because that is in fact an impossible and subjective standard to set policy around.
A: Wrong. Policy is set in place already. Works very well. Companies also have "no relationship" policies or "must disclose relationships to HR" policies to protect themselves from idiots who don't know how to calm down at work.
Here's the key takeaway from your questions that you're missing that makes everything make sense:
Ask with tact and professionalism just once. If declined, never try again. Ever. Also, you risk getting into trouble for even trying once depending on company policy. Best Advice is to not pursue relationships while at work.
Check it out: I've never had to go talk to anyone in HR, ever, about sexual harassment. I've never had to go to HR about my romantic relationships in the work place (avoided them). And I've been working in the adult world a very long time. I'm very healthy - definitely a red-blooded man. 😉 And there are plenty of very attractive women in the work place wherever I work. But here's my secret: my libido has not place in the workplace because I'm not a dumbass.