Originally posted by Zigg
This is a bad faith argument.And the Mace brigade in general is a bad-faith campaign of dismissing the relevant fax.
Lol I am not and never have been of the Mace brigade.
Sometimes we just need to accept facts though, which is difficult when it works against someones personal preferred characters.
Lucas and the films made it perfectly clear Mace was on the same tier as Yoda and Palpatine. Even the official website names him Champion of the Order.
Zigg, here's my take on Mace and Dooku. I want to see your thoughts on them overall:
So, pre-TPM Dooku turns out to be a mega-prodigy. The best Yoda had ever trained etc. However, Mace comes along and quickly catches up to Dooku (despite being his junior by three decades?). As is pointed out, the only people to ever eclipse Dooku in lightsaber combat were Yoda and Windu. And Windu has similar quotes: the only people ever to match him were Yoda and Dooku.
So around TPM I am inclined to think Windu and Dooku are both pretty damn close, I'm unsure if there is a way to know for sure who at that point in time is better.
We get to post-TPM. Dooku see's a power spike thanks to his new Sith teachings. Windu is progressively growing stronger during the war thanks to him getting over his fear of using Vaapad. I would posit that Dooku initially surpassed Mace's power growth but that gap levelled out the more masterful Mace himself became over his emotions. Around the time of Dark Rendezvous (because of Yoda's musings) and their little skirmish in that comic, I would suggest they are back to being roughly even at this point.
Then we get to RotS. Specifically, when the news drops that Palpatine has cucked the Jedi Order and Republic to the Sith the whole time, in combination with the fact Mace has gotten over his fear of using Vaapad, Mace becomes an "8 bordering on a 9." (opposed to Dooku being a hard 8). Based on what is shown in RotS, I would argue Mace is progressively pulling away from Dooku and getting closer to the likes of Yoda the closer we get to the Sidious duel.
At the apex of Mace's powers, while I don't think he is quite on par with Yoda and Sidious, he's much closer to their level than Dooku. And I think that stems from the possibility that Mace was a greater prodigy than Dooku all along, and just had to unlock his inner power/potential by mastering Vaapad.
Meanwhile, I would argue Yoda stayed relatively stagnant from TPM to RotS, with him unleashing more power as the situation called for it. I do not buy the arguments that Mace was ever on-par with Yoda. Everything in the comics and novels themselves seems to contradict that idea and, even at the height of Mace's power in RotS, it's unclear how valid his victory over Sidious really was.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lol I am not and never have been of the Mace brigade.
This is a bad faith statement.
Sometimes we just need to accept facts though, which is difficult when it works against someones personal preferred characters.
Indeed. Which is why, without the loop of Vaapad channeling Sidious' power, we can put Mace back where he belongs, with Dooku.
Lucas and the films made it perfectly clear Mace was on the same tier as Yoda and Palpatine.
If only Lucas was the entirety of the franchise - EU and all, and not someone who had originally donned himself the top of authority of his empire, only to sell that empire later - revoking his say on these matters. You would have a point if the films didn't have a novel to explain context : Mace's parity with Sidious is a special ability he uses to Syphon the Sith lords power an nothing more. The bigger picture - which you fail to grasp - points to Mace being either on/or slightly below Dooku's level. This is even true in canon - Maul is hardly scared of Windu and he's about even with Talzin off Dathomir.
Even the official website names him Champion of the Order. [/B]
What does this mean?
Also, I'm honestly not too privy to Mace's journey to mastering Vaapad but from what I can glean: Shatterpoint was 22BBY. Dark Rendezvous (where Yoda muses Mace might be a match for Dooku on even ground) and the Obsession comic (where Mace and Dooku skirmish fairly evenly) both happen in 19BBY. So it does seem likely to me that somewhere in that three year gap Mace caught up to Dooku in a big way, despite Dooku being introduced to "realms of power beyond his most wild fantasies" etc by Sidious.
Originally posted by RealistRacismNot seeing why he would? He's:
Not seeing how Yoda wouldn’t improve during the war...
1. Near the end of his lifespan.
2. Mostly inactive as far as actual battles are concerned.
3. Not given a serious challenge unless he's fighting Dooku (who he has to take it easy on) or Sidious (which is where we see Yoda at his absolute best).
Why would there be a massive gap between TPM and RotS Yoda? I'm not convinced if TPM Yoda had to fight RotS Sidious in the senate it would go terribly differently.
Originally posted by BestDebaterEverSo, pre-TPM Dooku turns out to be a mega-prodigy. The best Yoda had ever trained etc. However, Mace comes along and quickly catches up to Dooku (despite being his junior by three decades?). As is pointed out, the only people to ever eclipse Dooku in lightsaber combat were Yoda and Windu. And Windu has similar quotes: the only people ever to match him were Yoda and Dooku.
Mostly good faith. On problem here :
The quote "best Jedi swordsman and only eclipsed by Yoda and Windu" - refers to Dooku as a Jedi. Meaning we look no further for TMP for him. This same standard however, doesn't apply to Mace. Who's is a Jedi up until his death in Revenge.
So around TPM I am inclined to think Windu and Dooku are both pretty damn close, I'm unsure if there is a way to know for sure who at that point in time is better.
No idea either. Good faith.
We get to post-TPM. Dooku see's a power spike thanks to his new Sith teachings. Windu is progressively growing stronger during the war thanks to him getting over his fear of using Vaapad. I would posit that Dooku initially surpassed Mace's power growth but that gap levelled out the more masterful Mace himself became over his emotions. Around the time of Dark Rendezvous (because of Yoda's musings) and their little skirmish in that comic, I would suggest they are back to being roughly even at this point.
Good faith. And accurate.
Then we get to RotS. Specifically, when the news drops that Palpatine has cucked the Jedi Order and Republic to the Sith the whole time, in combination with the fact Mace has gotten over his fear of using Vaapad, Mace becomes an "8 bordering on a 9." (opposed to Dooku being a hard 8). Based on what is shown in RotS, I would argue Mace is progressively pulling away from Dooku and getting closer to the likes of Yoda the closer we get to the Sidious duel.At the apex of Mace's powers, while I don't think he is quite on par with Yoda and Sidious, he's much closer to their level than Dooku. And I think that stems from the possibility that Mace was a greater prodigy than Dooku all along, and just had to unlock his inner power/potential by mastering Vaapad.
Meanwhile, I would argue Yoda stayed relatively stagnant from TPM to RotS, with him unleashing more power as the situation called for it. I do not buy the arguments that Mace was ever on-par with Yoda. Everything in the comics and novels themselves seems to contradict that idea and, even at the height of Mace's power in RotS, it's unclear how valid his victory over Sidious really was.
Good Faith. A good rationalisation of how Mace was able to compete with Sidious. A spike of power when he realised Sidious was pulling the strings may have unlocked his full potential, but the other argument as that this was situational amp and by the wording of the novel, applies to a one time fight with Sidious. Another thing : **** Gillard. I'll explain why his statements are unhelpful and how we're not technically bound by them later.
All in all, this is a top tier explanation for the Mace conundrum as oppose to ought statements made by Darth Thor.
What's with people and Vaapad?
Does that mean Windu gets an insta-win because of Vaapad? Absolutely not. It did not work out so well for him against Palpatine, did it?
For the last time: Vaapad doesn't absorb darksiders' powers. A Vaapad practitioner merely siphons off darksiders' emotions to perform a "Light Side" Force rage.
That is all. Stover just loves to write in ambiguity.
Vaapad is the opposite of Juyo. Whereas Juyo practitioners rely on their own darkmess, Vaapad practitioners rely on their foes'. That's why Sora Bulq ultimately fell to the Dark Side, because she couldn't control the flow of anger and hatred.
"Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind, a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side."
-Mace Windu
"Form seven is very aggressive, Quin. It can take the user very close to the dark side—and you, frankly, sometimes walk too close there as it is."
-Mace Windu
"And he did not master Vaapad. Vaapad mastered him."
-Mace Windu on Sora Bulq
"He showed me the anger at the core of my being—and made me acknowledge its power!"
-Sora Bulq, to Tholme
"You separate the dark from the light because you have been taught to fear, Master Bulq."
-Darth Tyranus, to Sora Bulq