Darth Nihilus runs the gauntlet

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There are plenty of sources that say Palpatine himself dominated drained all of the inhabitants, so whether the adepts also participated or not, the evidence suggests they were not a primary or necessary component of the activity. And the fact that he does it 24/7 over decades is the point.

"What better lure for multitudes than Byss’s siren call of beauty and peace? Once there, their wills are destroyed by the Emperor and his Adepts, and replaced with an illusion of tranquility as they blissfully surrender their life energy to sustain the Emperor.
-Dark Empire Sourcebook"

"When the Imperial claim to the Deep Core was established and loyal followers flocked to the new frontier, Palpatine made sure to draw the most eager and blissfully ignorant nobles and leaders to Byss."
-Byss and the Deep Core

Therefore: Palpatine needed Ignorant people.

"However, nobles tend to be a little stronger willed than other inhabitants of Byss and are merely cowed rather than brainwashed."
-Byss and the Deep Core

He only does it - to my knowledge - as long as he is on the planet.

"Once the populace had settled into their new lives in an Imperial utopia, the Emperor initiated his true plans for the world. Slowly but steadily, he used his dark Force powers to enslave the people on the world and drain their life energies to fuel his own vile experiments.
-Byss and the Deep Core

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, I'd favor the out of universe sources over the non-Force sensitive historian. In either case, at the very least he was TP'ing millions (or more) in real-time.

Both sources are valid. Neither does contradict the other. They are both perfectly acceptable. Where is this notion that he was using telepathy on the Coruscant citizens? There is none - to my memory - unless Wedge Antilles' conclusion. Even, then, that is not really an extraordinary feat given that he would basically use his powers on non-Force sensitives - susceptible to Force powers. And mind you - he would not really mind-control them over a long period of time. He would just wipe that event from their memory. And it is not like he needs to rub the entire populace's mind - only to a few. But that poses a question. If Palpatine is able to do that on a such great scale - why does he prefer to bring weak-willed-minded people to Byss?
Answer: because they are obviously more easily susceptible to his influence.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The longer it took, the longer Palpatine would have to TP potential witnesses.

Not really. What you have to take in account is that Palpatine is an extremely influential figure. He can just have those individuals killed. And as explained - above. His performance is not that great when being used on weaklings. Although, we have a contradiction in your following statement. Why would Sidious use mind-rub on the populace of Coruscant - if he Force-buried the Lusankya all by himself? If he did it all by himself - then it should be easy for him, right? Unless it was not easy - and he had done this - helped by his men. That would surely explain why he had to mind-rub the populace. Or we choose the other route - and Palpatine did the same acts - but it took him so much time given it was an exhaustive performance. Any way you take it - it does not look well for Palpatine.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not necessarily. That's the interpretation of a NR historian.

And you are actually saying they are wrong? Wow! I mean - we have a few in-universe statements about Darth Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord - and you are willing to accept them. Yet when it comes about this particular quote - you are so easily eager to dismiss? I wonder why. 🙂

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The Eclipse's nexus was clearly Palpatine, unless if DE Sidious by himself made the Eclipse a nexus more powerful than even Byss in a minimum span of time, which would be pretty OP unto itself. And it's pretty clearly stated that Sidious can create Force storms on his own power; no evidence suggests that a nexus is necessary.

1. Not really. Leia senses the presence of the Dark Side nexus while Palpatine is not aboard the Eclipse. And it is noted as being more powerful than Byss.

And this should not be surprising given that The Eclipse also served as some sort of Dark Side focal point for him and those who were aboard.

2. Just because Palpatine is able to infuse certain places(with his men) with Dark Side energies does not mean he does not get benefits from those energies. Palpatine is not the Dark Side itself - that is The Son("officially" speaking)
Your statement would be correct only if Palpatine were to be really the source of the Dark Side. Then, yes, you do have a point. You cannot amplify your own powers if you are being the source of it. But Palpatine - like many others Sith - are not the source of the Dark Side - they are merely conductors. They infest places with their tainted Force signature: and certain objects or places get infused with the power of the Dark Side. It is not like they "remove" portions of their Dark Side power and add it to something else.

3. It is actually both.

"Using this knowledge, I can unleash the dark side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms."
-Darth Sidious, Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force[/B]

Given that Sidious is already "almost" a fully-corrupt being - it does make sense that he can manipulate his own energies to unleash Force storms.

And yet I do not understand why are his Force storms so extraordinary - given that some of the ancient Sith Lords were also practitioners of this ability?

[QUOTE]"Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across light years to Droga's body.
-Gamer #5

Even Palpatine himself states that Force storms are an expression of your tainted Dark Side energies - not your own strength in The Force.

He notes that everyone is capable of such power. Difference being that he is more refined in it and knows how to target his foes.

Emperor Palpatine’s first volume deals the use of emotion to control the Force. He considers anger to be the most potent emotional form. With anger, the Jedi can call upon the Dark Side, harnessing it for great power and destruction. Palpatine teaches that anger and rage, mixed with intelligent control, call upon the Dark Side with a very fine level of control, and can even kill from a great distance."
-Dark Empire Sourcebook

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Not really. Leia senses the presence of the Dark Side nexus while Palpatine is not aboard the Eclipse. And it is noted as being more powerful than Byss.

Wat

Originally posted by Valkorion
looking at all the sources it's clear Palpatine was the main factor IMHO, it's not like he needed the help of fodder adepts, they were just along for the ride

"What better lure for multitudes than Byss’s siren call of beauty and peace? Once there, their wills are destroyed by the Emperor and his Adepts, and replaced with an illusion of tranquility as they blissfully surrender their life energy to sustain the Emperor.
-Dark Empire Sourcebook"

Mind you - it flatly states he does it collectively with his Dark Side Adepts.

Originally posted by Valkorion
if he can casually drain them from across the galaxy with zero effort, he could prob just try harder and kill them outright, or TP them to death

You are obviously missing context here.
1 He targeted ignorant weaklings for Byss planet
2. He only drained them when he was on Byss
3. His Coruscant performance is ambiguous. No matter the route you choose - Palpatine is not in a suitable position to testify his own power to us.

Originally posted by Valkorion
he still would have to TP billions of people at the least given Coruscant's population

No, he does not need to use Telepathy on the entire populace. All he has to do is mind-wipe certain individuals who get to close to find out his secret. You are taking quantity in the detriment of quality.

Originally posted by Valkorion
both byss and eclipse were nexuses because of Palpatine, and he doesn't need them to do force storms, as shown in sourcebooks and the end of RotJ

It does not matter if they were Dark Side focals because of Palpatine - even then it is not only because of Palpatine - but also due to certain of his subordinates who were allowed to performs Dark Side deeds on both the Eclipse and Byss.

So what if Palpatine infused these two places with Dark Side energy? That does not mean he "donates" some of his power and remains without it. That only means he channels the power of the Dark Side in certain objects or places(willingly or merely with his own presence)

Palpatine is a conductor of the Dark Side: he is not the source. You would be right only if he was the real source.

As about Force storms: as already mentioned above. Sidious notes that everyone can be capable of doing them. All a practitioner has to do is given in to their anger to unleash them or manipulate existing Dark Side focals. It is not really that of a big deal - given that even some of the ancient Sith were users of this technique.

Originally posted by Valkorion
sidious has more power than nihilus and is obviously far greater in mastery, knowledge and intelligence, only chance for nihilus is if his drain is infinite in power, but imho that's nonsense

He is far greater in mastery, knowledge, and intelligence - that is a fact. But I do not understand how is he going to win in a face-to-face battle with Darth Nihilus? In the Knights of the Old Republic 2 - you had to be another hole in The Force to compete with Nihilus - even then, he actually had to be starved.

While Sidious is the more refined Sith Lord; Nihilus is simply the more powerful one.

Even if you still do not believe it: it was noted that Nihilus grows stronger in The Force if the opponent is superior. If Palpatine is indeed stronger - then Nihilus will simply add his power to his own and pulverize the old man.

It should not be unbelievable that Nihilus is the strongest Sith Lord in history(Vitiate is not a Sith anymore) After all he is not a conduct of the Force; he is an accumulator.

Originally posted by Lord GOAT
Wat

You do realize that Leia is a Force sensitive in the Extended Universe?
Leia traveled to Byss with her friends to rescue Luke. Then they got captured by Palpatine. They escaped. Luke remained behind. And then she met him on The Eclipse.

Do not you think she could sense Byss as a Dark Side focal?

Do you really need every little thing to be explained on the paper?

Freedumb Nadd

Just read DE again, please.

Originally posted by Lord GOAT
Freedumb Nadd

Just read DE again, please.

And you should stop twisting my KMC user name.
Do you see me twisting any other KMC user's name whenever they say something stupid or just do it because it is fun? No, I do not. And I expect the same respect from other members like you.

Learn to respect your fellow peers - not insulting them.
You disgust me.

If I have to go and re-read it(and I have read all the issues - by the way) why do not you point out where I am wrong?

The Eclipse arrives. Leia feels that Luke is near. Palpatine contacts the Rebels. Who is right next to him? Luke. So obviously both of them were on the Eclipse when Leia arrived.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Based on what? RotS Sidious is canonically the most powerful Sith in history, and if you want to argue that Nihilus gigadrains, why doesn't Plagueis just midichlorian kill?

Show me a quote that isn't one of the following:

1.In-universe.
2.Fallible source.
3.Character perspective.
4.Is only relevant to G-canon or T-canon.

Then explain why I should take that as indisputable gospel when Leland Chee doesn't consider them to be an absolute Canon fact. Now whilst I don't dismiss sources claiming as such, I don't see a reason to take them as any more relevant than actual feats comparisons nor do they any longer have any form of retcon authority over different sources claiming that others are stronger or are peers.

In an actual feats comparison, Darth Nihilus has a better telekinesis feat by a mile than Darth Sidious has as of Revenge of the Sith prior to ever draining planets.

Lesser known feats of Darth Nihilus is having galaxy-scale feeding, willing a ship to remain intact regardless of the severity of the structural integrity, being capable of destroying Citadel Station, encroaching upon becoming solar system tier at the height of his power.

Then there's the fact that in terms of feats Nihilus blows Galen Marek clean out of the water given his major hunger growth after leaving Malachor V. Yet TFU Sheev was in pain during his 'desperate' battle with Marek.

I give Sheev relative parity and possible superiority as of ROTJ.

"What better lure for multitudes than Byss’s siren call of beauty and peace? Once there, their wills are destroyed by the Emperor and his Adepts, and replaced with an illusion of tranquility as they blissfully surrender their life energy to sustain the Emperor.
-Dark Empire Sourcebook"

Yes, and my point is that the majority of sources solely attribute the TP and drain to Palpatine, so the best reconciliation of the evidence is that Sidious is the overwhelmingly dominant vehicle behind the activity, and his adepts are either minor boosters or even just along for the ride.

Therefore: Palpatine needed Ignorant people.

It doesn't say he needed ignorant people. You could say that this makes the feat less impressive than it otherwise would be, but it's also being done to 20 billion, so that probably gets more than evened out.

He only does it - to my knowledge - as long as he is on the planet.

Based on what? If we look at this quote:

Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy.

At the very least the TP sounds like a constant phenomenon to me.

Both sources are valid. Neither does contradict the other. They are both perfectly acceptable. Where is this notion that he was using telepathy on the Coruscant citizens? There is none - to my memory - unless Wedge Antilles' conclusion.

The very source you say attributes the burial to imperial engineers notes that the Emperor used his mind fogging powers:

She renamed the vessel Lusankya, and, with help from the Emperor's mind-fogging powers, Imperial engineers buried the tremendous battleship beneath the cityscape in Coruscant's Manarai Mountain district.

If you don't want to use that source anymore, then the only conclusion from the other descriptions of the incident is that Sidious used both TK and TP.

Even, then, that is not really an extraordinary feat given that he would basically use his powers on non-Force sensitives - susceptible to Force powers.

So employing the Force on a massive scale against millions of non-Force sensitives isn't impressive at all? Then why are we talking so much about Nihilus draining worlds?

And mind you - he would not really mind-control them over a long period of time. He would just wipe that event from their memory. And it is not like he needs to rub the entire populace's mind - only to a few.

Actually, if he does it your way and wipes their memories after the fact, he would have to pin down and TP potentially trillions or even more, given how fast information can potentially travel. News of a massive super star destroyer sized object being lowered from the sky would travel extremely quickly, and probably reach far beyond Coruscant too. Within a matter of hours, you could expect trillions of people spread out across the galaxy to have heard the news.

But that poses a question. If Palpatine is able to do that on a such great scale - why does he prefer to bring weak-willed-minded people to Byss?
Answer: because they are obviously more easily susceptible to his influence.

The fact that he has the resources to make TP'ing 20 billion people passively as easy as possible doesn't preclude him from needing them.

Although, we have a contradiction in your following statement. Why would Sidious use mind-rub on the populace of Coruscant - if he Force-buried the Lusankya all by himself? If he did it all by himself - then it should be easy for him, right? Unless it was not easy - and he had done this - helped by his men. That would surely explain why he had to mind-rub the populace. Or we choose the other route - and Palpatine did the same acts - but it took him so much time given it was an exhaustive performance. Any way you take it - it does not look well for Palpatine.

I have no idea what you are saying here. How does him lowering the Lusankya with TK preclude him from needing to mind-wipe witnesses?

And you are actually saying they are wrong? Wow! I mean - we have a few in-universe statements about Darth Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord - and you are willing to accept them. Yet when it comes about this particular quote - you are so easily eager to dismiss? I wonder why.

What are you talking about? Where have I used in-universe statements of Palpatine's supremacy as proof of his supremacy? Indeed, if anything this double standard works against you, because you are now arguing that in-universe sourcebooks are automatically valid.

1. Not really. Leia senses the presence of the Dark Side nexus while Palpatine is not aboard the Eclipse. And it is noted as being more powerful than Byss.

Actually, Sidious is on the Eclipse at that time, so there's no reason to think that Leia is sensing a nexus that's on a ship for some reason and not the extremely powerful dark sider who had earlier in the comic been identified as his own nexus. And yes, Palpatine is more powerful than Byss.

2. Just because Palpatine is able to infuse certain places(with his men) with Dark Side energies does not mean he does not get benefits from those energies. Palpatine is not the Dark Side itself - that is The Son("officially" speaking)
Your statement would be correct only if Palpatine were to be really the source of the Dark Side. Then, yes, you do have a point. You cannot amplify your own powers if you are being the source of it. But Palpatine - like many others Sith - are not the source of the Dark Side - they are merely conductors. They infest places with their tainted Force signature: and certain objects or places get infused with the power of the Dark Side. It is not like they "remove" portions of their Dark Side power and add it to something else.

My point is that his alleged transformation of the Eclipse into an uber-nexus would be an impressive feat unto itself. I never suggested that it wouldn't externally amp him, but you haven't demonstrated that it's a nexus independent of Sidious anyway.

3. It is actually both.

Every dark side ability involves the unleashing of energies around the user. The Force is frequently described as an energy field.

He notes that everyone is capable of such power. Difference being that he is more refined in it and knows how to target his foes.

Irrelevant to the demonstrated potency of his own storms.

Yes, and my point is that the majority of sources solely attribute the TP and drain to Palpatine, so the best reconciliation of the evidence is that Sidious is the overwhelmingly dominant vehicle behind the activity, and his adepts are either minor boosters or even just along for the ride.

So you are willing to ignore a source? Wow - and I thought only I and a few others were doing that.

Back to the topic: those sources do not contradict this other source that I have posted here. The other lore statements simply focus on Darth Sidious alone since he is the main villain character in the Dark Empire Trilogy.
You - saying it is a contradiction will not change anything.

It doesn't say he needed ignorant people. You could say that this makes the feat less impressive than it otherwise would be, but it's also being done to 20 billion, so that probably gets more than evened out.

Then why had he targeted specifically that type of individuals if not due to their ignorance and worshiping of him? You are arguing with the material itself. You really should not do that.

Based on what? If we look at this quote:

"Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy."

At the very least the TP sounds like a constant phenomenon to me.

Because the source itself specifically focuses on Palpatine's accomplishments during the Dark Empire Trilogy. There is no point in adding the Dark Side Adepts if they have already been mentioned before.

The very source you say attributes the burial to imperial engineers notes that the Emperor used his mind fogging powers:

"She renamed the vessel Lusankya, and, with help from the Emperor's mind-fogging powers, Imperial engineers buried the tremendous battleship beneath the cityscape in Coruscant's Manarai Mountain district."

If you don't want to use that source anymore, then the only conclusion from the other descriptions of the incident is that Sidious used both TK and TP.

That is not how it works, lady. Granted my mind is already fuzzy enough given I am not a fully-converted geek. But this source basically states that Palpatine did not use Telekinesis but rather Mind Rub - which is good because:
-the citizens are weaklings and susceptible to The Force
-the source does not mention that Palpatine had done it 24/24. It simply states that Palpatine was using The Force to make certain individuals to forget what has happened - if they ever saw the Lusankya.

So employing the Force on a massive scale against millions of non-Force sensitives isn't impressive at all? Then why are we talking so much about Nihilus draining worlds?

You are mixing stuff here, milady.

1. The two performances are entirely different
2. Nihilus always targeted planets rich in Force energy to quell his Hunger
3. Nihilus' absorption of the said-so Force energies would increase his power in The Force

You are mixing apples with oranges.

Actually, if he does it your way and wipes their memories after the fact, he would have to pin down and TP potentially trillions or even more, given how fast information can potentially travel. News of a massive super star destroyer sized object being lowered from the sky would travel extremely quickly, and probably reach far beyond Coruscant too. Within a matter of hours, you could expect trillions of people spread out across the galaxy to have heard the news.

Prove it that it happened that way. Do you think Palpatine is going to let random nobodies to come and see what is going in a certain area of Coruscant? As said before - your are confusing Mind-Control for Memory-Rub. In the first case - the act is continous; in the other case the act happens just once.

You are definitely taking quantity for quality here. This is like saying that a serial killer who killed 100000 children will kill a trained assassin who has killed the 20 best hit men in the world.

The fact that he has the resources to make TP'ing 20 billion people passively as easy as possible doesn't preclude him from needing them.

Are you really going to ignore the source?

"When the Imperial claim to the Deep Core was established and loyal followers flocked to the new frontier, Palpatine made sure to draw the most eager and blissfully ignorant nobles and leaders to Byss."
-Byss and the Deep Core

Why would he target specifically those without reason? Unless he needed them because he knew they would be more easily susceptible to Mind-Control.

I have no idea what you are saying here. How does him lowering the Lusankya with TK preclude him from needing to mind-wipe witnesses?

Because it shows that Palpatine does not suddenly have the power to instantly/quickly bury the Lusankya. After all: some of you use this performance to show why his Telekinesis performance is greater than Nihilus'.

What are you talking about? Where have I used in-universe statements of Palpatine's supremacy as proof of his supremacy? Indeed, if anything this double standard works against you, because you are now arguing that in-universe sourcebooks are automatically valid.

You were dismissing the in-universe perspective where it was said that Sidious used Memory-Rub and his engineers buried the Lusankya. Or, at least, that was my interpretation.

Actually, Sidious is on the Eclipse at that time, so there's no reason to think that Leia is sensing a nexus that's on a ship for some reason and not the extremely powerful dark sider who had earlier in the comic been identified as his own nexus. And yes, Palpatine is more powerful than Byss.

1. Except for the fact that the writer clearly underlines the flagship itself.

"There is no glimmer of hope in this ship... only the Dark Side of The Force... More powerful than ever."
-Dark Empire: Issue 6: The Fate of a galaxy

Palpatine is not the only Darksider on that ship - you know. It was actually the collective presence of them that turned the Eclipse into a Dark Side nexus.

Why? Because she has already met Palpatine before(in his aged clone body on Byss) And she gave no such remark as when she met the Eclipse itself.

Therefore - The Eclipse itself is a greater Dark Side Nexus than Byss and Palpatine.

2. Being a Dark Side nexus is not a testimony to your strength in The Force. If we rationalize this concept your way; then Luke Skywalker is not a powerful Force - all because he is not a Darksider.

Being a Dark Side nexus simply means your Force connections are corrupt - that is all.

My point is that his alleged transformation of the Eclipse into an uber-nexus would be an impressive feat unto itself. I never suggested that it wouldn't externally amp him, but you haven't demonstrated that it's a nexus independent of Sidious anyway.

It is not just Palpatine - it is him and his Dark Side servants. Given that the statement focuses solely on the flagship instead of Palpatine himself. And keep in mind that:
-Leia felt the Dark Side the strongest on The Eclipse after she met Palpatine on Byss. Therefore we have "proof" that it is not only Palpatine who is responsible for the "darksideformation" of The Eclipse.

Every dark side ability involves the unleashing of energies around the user. The Force is frequently described as an energy field.

Not really all. Telekinesis is not. Mind-Control is not. Force choke is not. Force drain is not.

And you cannot compare standard (Dark Side) powers with Force storms. A Force storm is generated via Dark Side energy manipulation. If the other abilities were like this: then they would create time-space holes in the universe of the fabric too.

Irrelevant to the demonstrated potency of his own storms.

Except for the fact that it is also stated:

"Emperor Palpatine’s first volume deals the use of emotion to control the Force. He considers anger to be the most potent emotional form. With anger, the Jedi can call upon the Dark Side, harnessing it for great power and destruction. Palpatine teaches that anger and rage, mixed with intelligent control, call upon the Dark Side with a very fine level of control, and can even kill from a great distance."
-Dark Empire Sourcebook

Emphasize mine: the source clearly states the aspect of destruction.

destruction
/dɪˈstrʌkʃ(əwink
noun
1.
the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.

Otherwise why do you think that the Force storm ability was stated as a Dark Side power and Jedi could only do it when they banded together? Because they were putting collectively their Dark Side emotions to create Force storms. That is why even some of Palpatine's Dark Side Elites can create them - on their own - but have no Force mastery over them(refinement).

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So you are willing to ignore a source? Wow - and I thought only I and a few others were doing that.

Nowhere did I ignore any sources. As I said, there are two sets of statements:

1. Palpatine TP'd and drained 20 billion people on Byss
2. Palpatine's adepts TP'd and drained people on Byss

The reconciliation here is not that Palpatine only did it to 500 million of them, or that he needed his adepts to do so because he is labeled as the exclusive source in various statements, which suggests that his adepts were not necessary or primary components. That Palpatine does it to all of them and his adepts also do it to some of them aren't mutually exclusive statements. If the citizens are not all being drained by Palpatine, then the claim that their life energies are bound to him would be an inaccurate one.

Then why had he targeted specifically that type of individuals if not due to their ignorance and worshiping of him? You are arguing with the material itself. You really should not do that.

That's not what I said, at all. I noted that using the Empire's resources to make the effort easier does not mean that it was necessary to do so. Nowhere did I suggest that the sources themselves are wrong. There is no evidence that draining the citizens on Byss took any considerable amount of effort from Palpatine, so even if he maneuvered himself to make the action as effortless as possible, the massive scale and distances involved still make it an immensely impressive feat.

That is not how it works, lady. Granted my mind is already fuzzy enough given I am not a fully-converted geek. But this source basically states that Palpatine did not use Telekinesis but rather Mind Rub - which is good because:
-the citizens are weaklings and susceptible to The Force

😐

I was responding to this statement by you:

Where is this notion that he was using telepathy on the Coruscant citizens?

And the quote I provided quite clearly notes that the Emperor used "mind fogging powers". We were talking about telepathy, not telekinesis.

You are mixing stuff here, milady.

1. The two performances are entirely different

Just saying that they're different doesn't make them so. You just argued that using the Force on a large scale against non-Force sensitives is irrelevant. Yet Nihilus's primary feats involve the manipulation of non-Force sensitives.

3. Nihilus' absorption of the said-so Force energies would increase his power in The Force

Ok...? So would Byss. Even with all of that power, he's still canonically below TPM Sidious.

Prove it that it happened that way.

:facepalm: My whole point is that the feat would be more impressive by orders of magnitude under your interpretation, where Sidious would have to track down the trillions of people that would have heard of the feat and mind-wiped them after the fact. I rather gave a less impressive interpretation, that he was just preemptively TP'ing potential witnesses, which may limit the number of needed targets to "merely" millions or billions.

Do you think Palpatine is going to let random nobodies to come and see what is going in a certain area of Coruscant?

You were just asking for proof and now you're hypothesizing that Sidious magically cleared out a huge area of Coruscant so wide that nobody could see a super star destroyer being lowered from the sky? Then why wasn't there any record of this mysterious mass-relocation, and why do no sources mention it?

You are definitely taking quantity for quality here. This is like saying that a serial killer who killed 100000 children will kill a trained assassin who has killed the 20 best hit men in the world.

It's not that simple. Quantity and quality are usually trade offs; quality obviously isn't infinitely more important, as if it's easier to take on one quintillion battle droids than a single super battle droid. In this case, Sidious's telepathy with Byss and the Lusankya are the largest scale telepathic feats in the Star Wars mythos. If you want to go to the other end, his TP'ing of DE Luke is probably the instance of TP domination being used against the most powerful opponent.

Are you really going to ignore the source?

...noting that something doesn't imply an upper or lower limit doesn't mean ignoring it.

Because it shows that Palpatine does not suddenly have the power to instantly/quickly bury the Lusankya. After all: some of you use this performance to show why his Telekinesis performance is greater than Nihilus'.

Your response literally makes no sense. You originally tried to make the argument that if Sidious used TK to lower the Lusankya, he somehow wouldn't need to mind-wipe witnesses, as if the mechanism through which the Lusankya was lowered would prevent people from seeing it. This is completely incoherent. Unless if Sidious literally teleported the Lusankya, people would still see it moving.

I'm going to try to parse through your reply and interpret it as you saying that he could lower it really quickly so nobody would notice, but that also makes absolutely no sense:

1. There's a limit to how fast Palpatine can lower the ship without it having catastrophic environmental effects.

2. If those effects magically aren't an issue, then it's actually easier to lower it more quickly.

3. No matter how fast he lowers the ship, people are still going to see a super star destroyer coming down from the sky.

So I don't know what you're trying to get at here.

You were dismissing the in-universe perspective where it was said that Sidious used Memory-Rub and his engineers buried the Lusankya. Or, at least, that was my interpretation.

...what? This was your original comment:

And you are actually saying they are wrong? Wow! I mean - we have a few in-universe statements about Darth Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord - and you are willing to accept them. Yet when it comes about this particular quote - you are so easily eager to dismiss? I wonder why.

Which was a strawman, and silly attempt to deflect from the frailty of your in-universe source.

1. Except for the fact that the writer clearly underlines the flagship itself.

...what are you talking about? The author doesn't underline anything - the dark side is strong in the ship...and Sidious is in the ship, lol.

Palpatine is not the only Darksider on that ship - you know. It was actually the collective presence of them that turned the Eclipse into a Dark Side nexus.

lmfao

Yeah, it was clearly fodder adept #1231 that created the nexus. But when Nihilus explicitly draws on the energies of his crew, we should just ignore that right? Why don't we now mitigate every dark sider's feats whenever they happen to be in proximity with other dark siders?

BTW, that just Palpatine and a few adepts can produce a nexus more powerful than Korriban, where there are thousands of Sith spirits in specifically concentrated fonts of power, would be a pretty impressive feat unto itself.

Why? Because she has already met Palpatine before(in his aged clone body on Byss) And she gave no such remark as when she met the Eclipse itself.

Therefore - The Eclipse itself is a greater Dark Side Nexus than Byss and Palpatine.

...or Sidious in a fresh body is more powerful than Sidious in an old one.

2. Being a Dark Side nexus is not a testimony to your strength in The Force. If we rationalize this concept your way; then Luke Skywalker is not a powerful Force - all because he is not a Darksider.

What? The fact that Luke Skywalker, a light sider, wouldn't be a dark side nexus is irrelevant to a comparison between two dark siders. This is like saying that Nihilus draining a planet isn't a valid feat because Luke Skywalker, a light sider, wouldn't do something like that. You are literally making no sense here - and if Nihilus had been given the exact same feat with the exact same accolades, you would've never let us hear the end of it.

Being a Dark Side nexus simply means your Force connections are corrupt - that is all.

...so the dark side being "more powerful than ever" has nothing to do with power? LMFAO

Not really all. Telekinesis is not. Mind-Control is not. Force choke is not. Force drain is not.

The Force functions like an energy field. A Force user's own Force connection is related to how they can interact with that external field.

And you cannot compare standard (Dark Side) powers with Force storms. A Force storm is generated via Dark Side energy manipulation. If the other abilities were like this: then they would create time-space holes in the universe of the fabric too.

The unleashing of dark energies and the opening of the hole are two different components.

Emphasize mine: the source clearly states the aspect of destruction.

As I said, the fact that others can create Force storms of unknown potencies is irrelevant, because it's not the mere fact that Sidious can create Force storms - it's how powerful they are, and how he can control them.

Nadd getting ragdolled.

Originally posted by Trocity
Nadd getting ragdolled.

[QUOTE

Nowhere did I ignore any sources. As I said, there are two sets of statements:

1. Palpatine TP'd and drained 20 billion people on Byss
2. Palpatine's adepts TP'd and drained people on Byss

The reconciliation here is not that Palpatine only did it to 500 million of them, or that he needed his adepts to do so because he is labeled as the exclusive source in various statements, which suggests that his adepts were not necessary or primary components. That Palpatine does it to all of them and his adepts also do it to some of them aren't mutually exclusive statements. If the citizens are not all being drained by Palpatine, then the claim that their life energies are bound to him would be an inaccurate one.[/QUOTE]

Lady, you are either making fun of me or you are doing really the opposite.
The emperor and the Dark Side Adepts mutually mind-influenced the Byss populace and then kept draining them. The source made that clear.

What you are doing here - is crediting Palpatine alone for the enslavement of Byss and its absorption of Byss citizens' life-force. Your twists do not work on me - unfortunately for you.
Your stance is laughable:
-Sidious uses Telepathy on 20 bil. numbered in individuals
-Dark Side Adepts use Telepathy on Byss people

How the heck does that make any sense?
Enlighten me - because it does not.

Where is your source that he was mind-controlling 20 bil. citizens all by himself and the Dark Side Adepts did not?

[QUOTE

I was responding to this statement by you.

And the quote I provided quite clearly notes that the Emperor used "mind fogging powers". We were talking about telepathy, not telekinesis

I know. I was simply pointing out the fact that you said that in-universe narrative forms are flawed when compare to the out-universe narrative forms. Is not this what you were trying to tell me? If you did not; then the fault is surely on my shoulders.

Just saying that they're different doesn't make them so. You just argued that using the Force on a large scale against non-Force sensitives is irrelevant. Yet Nihilus's primary feats involve the manipulation of non-Force sensitives.

Ok. So what the heck are we talking about here?

How does Nihilus' Telekinesis performance has anything to do with Palpatine's Byss performance or Sidious' with Nihilus' Hunger?

Nihilus' planet-absorption has given him extraordinary amounts of Force reserves to do ludicrous performances.

You are again mixing apples with oranges.

Ok...? So would Byss. Even with all of that power, he's still canonically below TPM Sidious.

Because...? Because some sources which are incorporated in Lucas' timeline and vision state so? Or are you forgetting that in a versus what matters is performances and then accolades?

:facepalm: My whole point is that the feat would be more impressive by orders of magnitude under your interpretation, where Sidious would have to track down the trillions of people that would have heard of the feat and mind-wiped them after the fact. I rather gave a less impressive interpretation, that he was just preemptively TP'ing potential witnesses, which may limit the number of needed targets to "merely" millions or billions.

Slap your face as many times as you want - you have no evidence as to how Palpatine used his Memory-Rub ability and on how many citizens. As I said before: Palpatine is not a fool to let people watch his Dark Side projects.

You were just asking for proof and now you're hypothesizing that Sidious magically cleared out a huge area of Coruscant so wide that nobody could see a super star destroyer being lowered from the sky? Then why wasn't there any record of this mysterious mass-relocation, and why do no sources mention it?

Because it was hinted in the context of a X-Wing novel.

"Could the Emperor's power through the dark side of the Force have been sufficient to compel thousands or millions of people to forget having seen the Lusankya being buried? As hideous as that idea seemed, Wedge hoped it was the truth. The likely alternative—that the Emperor had ordered the deaths of all the witnesses—seemed that much more horrible."
-X-Wing: Krytos Trap

Wedge wants the believe the opposite because he cannot face the "truth" that Palpatine ordered their execution.
And below we witness the process of how Palpatine used his mind-fogging powers:

"Now director of the Imperial Intelligence, Ysanne worked to demonstrate the usefulness of her office to the only person that mattered—the Emperor. Impressed with her suggestion to build a combination internment center and brainwashing facility, Palpatine gave her the Super Star Desteroyer from the Kuat shipyards—a twin to Vader’s from Fondor. She renamed the vessel Lusankya, and, with help from the Emperor’s mind-fogging powers, Imperial engineers buried the tremendous battleship beneath the cityscape in Coruscant’s Manarai Mountain district."
- The New Essential Guide to Characters

And now I remember that this is not an in-universe narrator form - it is from an out-universe perspective.

So he was not constantly Memory-Rubbing people across the galaxy or on the planet all at once. Palpatine was simply mind-fogging only those who were brought there.

You were just asking for proof and now you're hypothesizing that Sidious magically cleared out a huge area of Coruscant so wide that nobody could see a super star destroyer being lowered from the sky? Then why wasn't there any record of this mysterious mass-relocation, and why do no sources mention it?

No. What I am suggesting is the fact that he was not Memory-Rubbing the entire Coruscant. He was simply Memory-Rubbing only those who were in vicinity.

It's not that simple. Quantity and quality are usually trade offs; quality obviously isn't infinitely more important, as if it's easier to take on one quintillion battle droids than a single super battle droid. In this case, Sidious's telepathy with Byss and the Lusankya are the largest scale telepathic feats in the Star Wars mythos. If you want to go to the other end, his TP'ing of DE Luke is probably the instance of TP domination being used against the most powerful opponent.

Yes - it is that simple. You are taking Sidious' quantity to prove why he is superior in comparison to another Force-user.
Quality>Quantity

Anyways - Nihilus already drained several planets - so he already has enough power before starvation to wipe entire civilizations.

...noting that something doesn't imply an upper or lower limit doesn't mean ignoring it.

No. It is clear you are, like most around here, misinterpret context. That is the problem in these "debates".

Your response literally makes no sense. You originally tried to make the argument that if Sidious used TK to lower the Lusankya, he somehow wouldn't need to mind-wipe witnesses, as if the mechanism through which the Lusankya was lowered would prevent people from seeing it. This is completely incoherent. Unless if Sidious literally teleported the Lusankya, people would still see it moving.

I'm going to try to parse through your reply and interpret it as you saying that he could lower it really quickly so nobody would notice, but that also makes absolutely no sense:

1. There's a limit to how fast Palpatine can lower the ship without it having catastrophic environmental effects.

2. If those effects magically aren't an issue, then it's actually easier to lower it more quickly.

3. No matter how fast he lowers the ship, people are still going to see a super star destroyer coming down from the sky.

So I don't know what you're trying to get at here.

Sidious slowly moves the Lusankya and has to mind-fog people - > a limit to his power. Sidious would obviously not need to mind-fog people if he can easily move the Lusankya. And before coming at me with your 'catastrophic environmental effects' - you need to take in account that Force-users have the power to shield people or places. If Palpatine really moved the Lusankya - he would just Force-shield the environment to not be affected by moving the Lusankya.

Which was a strawman, and silly attempt to deflect from the frailty of your in-universe source.

It is not a straw man. It is simply proving that you do not agree with in-universe statements when it comes about Palpatine if they are against him; yet you do when it comes about proving his superiority. Such as:

Well, I'd favor the out of universe sources over the non-Force sensitive historian.

When we were talking about the Lusankya performance where Palpatine had his men to bury it.

...what are you talking about? The author doesn't underline anything - the dark side is strong in the ship...and Sidious is in the ship, lol.

Underline as in emphasize.
So you want to tell me that Byss+Sidious were not giving that impression to Leia and yet when she is on The Eclipse - she is suddenly getting that feeling of dread? How the heck does that even work?

When will you learn that The Eclipse as Dark Side nexus was not only due to Palpatine? Otherwise why do you think Tom Veitch had the flagship as being a greater Dark Side nexus than Palpatine ever was? Because he was precisely referring to the flagship itself(Palpatine+Dark Side Adepts)

lmfao

Yeah, it was clearly fodder adept #1231 that created the nexus. But when Nihilus explicitly draws on the energies of his crew, we should just ignore that right? Why don't we now mitigate every dark sider's feats whenever they happen to be in proximity with other dark siders?

I never said you should not take that in account. But I am just thinking how much power would his already-dead crew give him enough to render planets Forceless...

Or you finally understand that Nihilus was instinctively feeding on them due to his passive aura? And his passive aura is really slowly draining individuals or places. It makes no difference in the growth of his power taken from planet-absorption.

I still do not understand your point here, though. Or are we debating natural power vs "artificial" power?

Do you think Palpatine cares if Vitiate became so powerful because he drained worlds? Do you think he would say: "No. You don't deserve that 'cause you cheated and I am hard working."?

BTW, that just Palpatine and a few adepts can produce a nexus more powerful than Korriban, where there are thousands of Sith spirits in specifically concentrated fonts of power, would be a pretty impressive feat unto itself.

-because they were clearly doing a lot of Dark Side experiments
-Leia never visited Korriban or Dromund Kaas

Where did you get that The Eclipse is a much "stronger" Force nexus?
And correct me if I am mistaken - but was not stated somewhere that the Dark Side nexus on Korriban has actually dulled a lot by the time of Dark Empire Trilogy?

...or Sidious in a fresh body is more powerful than Sidious in an old one.

That makes no sense at all. Otherwise Yoda would be less powerful in The Force than Dooku because Dooku is actually "younger" than him. Or Padawans would be actually a lot stronger than their Masters.

Where did this notion come from? Still falling in the no-limits fallacy?

[QUOTE

What? The fact that Luke Skywalker, a light sider, wouldn't be a dark side nexus is irrelevant to a comparison between two dark siders. This is like saying that Nihilus draining a planet isn't a valid feat because Luke Skywalker, a light sider, wouldn't do something like that. You are literally making no sense here - and if Nihilus had been given the exact same feat with the exact same accolades, you would've never let us hear the end of it.

Excuse me - how is that irrelevant? You are actually stating that the Dark Side>Light Side if you tell me that Sidious>Nihilus because he is a Dark Side nexus or creates Dark Side nexi. And for your knowledge: Malgus, Skere Kaan, and Malak were all implied to be Dark Side nexi. Does that mean they equal Sidious in power? Of course not. It means they were "fully" corrupt in The Force.

...so the dark side being "more powerful than ever" has nothing to do with power? LMFAO

So you want to say that Freedon Nadd is Sidious' equal in The Force?Because, just like Sidious, his old body was degraded due to the Dark Side of The Force and he became a Force ghost. Or are you trying to tell me that Vitiate is equal in power to Palpatine all because he is another embodiment of the Dark Side?

The Force functions like an energy field. A Force user's own Force connection is related to how they can interact with that external field

Not literal solid energy. Yoda was talking about how the entire universe is all life and light.

energy
/ˈɛnədʒi
noun
1.
the strength and vitality required for sustained physical or mental activity.

That has nothing to do with the aforementioned Force powers. The Force storm ability is about harnessing physical Dark Side energies and twist them(either from outer sources or your own self)

The unleashing of dark energies and the opening of the hole are two different components.

No, milady. It is not. Sidious plainly states how the whole process works.

"Through a simple act of will, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable."
-Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force"

Nowhere does it mention that Sidious is doing two different things in the process.

As I said, the fact that others can create Force storms of unknown potencies is irrelevant, because it's not the mere fact that Sidious can create Force storms - it's how powerful they are, and how he can control them.

Then the Dark Empire Sourcebook would not mention the great power and destruction for general Force-users. It is self-evident that a Force storm is generated via your Dark Side tainted connection and not your own strength in The Force unaffected by any alignment. Otherwise why would not Jedi conjure them on their own instead banding together? Because they would risk to fall to the Dark Side.

Originally posted by Trocity
Nadd getting ragdolled.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Nadd getting ragdolled.

You know, I tried to open this conversation with kindness - but since you initiated the rudeness, I guess I might as well just point out how unimaginably awful your reply was. Let's do a few exhibitions:

Where is your source that he was mind-controlling 20 bil. citizens all by himself and the Dark Side Adepts did not?

Fail. 👆 Not only did I never say that the adepts didn't TP anyone, I literally said the exact opposite in every single reply I've made on the matter, since it seemed to requiring repeating. You haven't responded to the core of my point on this at all, or even hinted that you know what I'm talking about.

Spoiler:
The question is over the extent of their contribution and their necessity, which I argued based on the majority of the sources at hand was small.

Or are you forgetting that in a versus what matters is performances and then accolades?

Based on what?

I suspect that engaging in an epistemological discussion with you isn't the most fruitful endeavor, but let's try:

With all of these feats, from Byss to the Lusankya, it's a question of your interpretation vs. mine of the same evidence. Granted, I think mine fit the evidence better - but if there's any reasonable ambiguity, and if we're trying to reconcile sources rather than toss them away, if sources say Sidious > Nihilus, the reasonable solution is to preference reasonable interpretations that fit these statements rather than ones that require us to toss evidence away. That would shift the burden of proof onto you to justify your lowballing. You first reconcile, and then dismiss.

Wedge wants the believe the opposite because he cannot face the "truth" that Palpatine ordered their execution.

You confused and twisted your own argument. Ordering their execution doesn't solve the problem at all because of the point I made earlier about information traveling extremely quickly, and probably leaving Coruscant within seconds of witnesses seeing a massive super star destroyer lowering from the sky. The only reasonable method is to preemptively stop witnesses. Your proposal, that Palpatine ordered mass relocations, isn't mentioned in any of the source material, and indeed wouldn't solve the problem since nobody could find records of these relocations either. You'd also have to essentially be relocating within like a several thousand kilometer radius, and even that wouldn't be enough for anyone who could observe it through extra-biological means (aka people scanning things on ships). So you just invented an alternative explanation that neither works nor has any textual support for the sole purpose of lowballing.

And below we witness the process of how Palpatine used his mind-fogging powers:

You're misreading the source. That's not saying that he took the witnesses into the Lusankya to get brainwashed, lol. And it still wouldn't solve the issue of information traveling really quickly.

And now I remember that this is not an in-universe narrator form - it is from an out-universe perspective.

No, The New Essential Guide to Characters is in-universe.

Yes - it is that simple. You are taking Sidious' quantity to prove why he is superior in comparison to another Force-user.
Quality>Quantity

So when I try to explain to you why the two variables are tradeoffs, and it's obvious one doesn't have infinitely more potency than the other, as if taking on 1 super battle droid is harder than taking on 100 quintillion b1 battle droids, you just respond by saying "nuh uh! Quality > quantity!"

This is why I'm probably not going to engage with you further on this subject - your replies don't actually engage with anything the other person was saying.

No. It is clear you are, like most around here, misinterpret context. That is the problem in these "debates".

This reply is literally incoherent. What context is being misinterpreted? All I did was point out that you didn't understand the difference between character doing X feat and character's limits being X feat. There was no context there - it was just an explanation of basic logic.

Sidious slowly moves the Lusankya and has to mind-fog people - > a limit to his power. Sidious would obviously not need to mind-fog people if he can easily move the Lusankya. And before coming at me with your 'catastrophic environmental effects' - you need to take in account that Force-users have the power to shield people or places. If Palpatine really moved the Lusankya - he would just Force-shield the environment to not be affected by moving the Lusankya.

😐 This reply literally doesn't address what it was responding to in even the most superficially possible manner, which perhaps isn't surprising given that your argument here was one of the worst of all time. The one point you tried to respond to was the catastrophic environmental effects part. You utterly failed:

1. As pointed out before, if the environmental effects don't matter then it's actually EASIER to lower it quickly than slowly, unless if you're lowering it so quickly as to be accelerating it significantly beyond 1g, but there's zero evidence Nihilus can do that, so why does it matter?

2. Let's talk about the environmental effects that lowering the Lusankya so quickly nobody could see it would have. If it takes the Lusankya 30 seconds to go from orbit to ground, that would still be witnessed potentially by millions of people, since a significant fraction of those in the visibility radius would happen to be gazing in that general direction at that time. But let's use that anyway:

If the Lusankya is lowered from about 100 km and comes to a standstill on hitting surface level, that would require Palpatine to carefully accelerate the Lusankya at 450 m/s^2 for 15 seconds and then decelerate it at the same rate for another 15 seconds, thus hitting a maximum speed of 6.75 kilometers every second . Then Palpatine would have had to:

1. Shield all of the insane sound, shockwaves, etc. coming from a massive ship multiple times the size of Mount Everest coming down orders of magnitude faster than any RL ship.

2. Shield the other effects of about ~10^20 joules of kinetic energy, aka about a thousand times more energy than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated.

And this is the conservative estimate. I mean, give me a break. 🙄

It is not a straw man. It is simply proving that you do not agree with in-universe statements when it comes about Palpatine if they are against him; yet you do when it comes about proving his superiority. Such as:

Once again, you don't even try to provide a coherent response to the sentences you were quoting. The entire idea behind this specific point was that "yet you do when it comes about proving his superiority" is an unfounded accusation by you. This is the third time I've explained this to you, and you still haven't responded to me either by:

1. Showing me an example of this alleged hypocrisy, or, preferably,
2. Justifying the validity of your in-universe source.

Instead, you just repeat your original accusation. Yes, we get what your point was, now actually defend it.

But I am just thinking how much power would his already-dead crew give him enough to render planets Forceless...

Then why bother draining them?

That makes no sense at all. Otherwise Yoda would be less powerful in The Force than Dooku because Dooku is actually "younger" than him. Or Padawans would be actually a lot stronger than their Masters.

Where did this notion come from? Still falling in the no-limits fallacy?

This:

Courtesy of Tempest. And that's not a "no-limits fallacy".

Excuse me - how is that irrelevant? You are actually stating that the Dark Side>Light Side if you tell me that Sidious>Nihilus because he is a Dark Side nexus or creates Dark Side nexi. And for your knowledge: Malgus, Skere Kaan, and Malak were all implied to be Dark Side nexi. Does that mean they equal Sidious in power? Of course not. It means they were "fully" corrupt in The Force.

Holy cringe, this is cringe. The point isn't that he was a nexus, the point is that the nexus was more powerful than ever, and thus stronger than Byss, which was described as the "darkest place in the galaxy", aka stronger than Korriban, DK, etc.

So you want to say that Freedon Nadd is Sidious' equal in The Force?Because, just like Sidious, his old body was degraded due to the Dark Side of The Force and he became a Force ghost. Or are you trying to tell me that Vitiate is equal in power to Palpatine all because he is another embodiment of the Dark Side?

This reply literally makes no sense whatsoever. What does Sidious becoming a sith spirit have to do with what we were talking about? What does a vague qualitative prose like "embodiment of the dark side" have to do with the specific notation that the Eclipse > Byss?

OK, I stopped here. This was just too much ridiculousness to handle. I really want to try to be nice to everyone, but it becomes hard when:

1. You start throwing out snarky jabs (which I'm not bothered by - but they provide the basis for reciprocation)
2. Your series of rebuttals have been among the worst performances in KMC history.

Unless if you condense your reply to something less tedious or otherwise provide something that is of at least passable quality, I'm bowing out.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your series of rebuttals have been among the worst performances in KMC history.

Originally posted by Trocity
Nadd getting ragdolled.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You know, I tried to open this conversation with kindness - but since you initiated the rudeness, I guess I might as well just point out how unimaginably awful your reply was. Let's do a few exhibitions:

Fail. 👆 Not only did I never say that the adepts didn't TP anyone, I literally said the exact opposite in every single reply I've made on the matter, since it seemed to requiring repeating. You haven't responded to the core of my point on this at all, or even hinted that you know what I'm talking about.

Spoiler:
The question is over the extent of their contribution and their necessity, which I argued based on the majority of the sources at hand was small.

Based on what?

I suspect that engaging in an epistemological discussion with you isn't the most fruitful endeavor, but let's try:

With all of these feats, from Byss to the Lusankya, it's a question of your interpretation vs. mine of the same evidence. Granted, I think mine fit the evidence better - but if there's any reasonable ambiguity, and if we're trying to reconcile sources rather than toss them away, if sources say Sidious > Nihilus, the reasonable solution is to preference reasonable interpretations that fit these statements rather than ones that require us to toss evidence away. That would shift the burden of proof onto you to justify your lowballing. You first reconcile, and then dismiss.

You confused and twisted your own argument. Ordering their execution doesn't solve the problem at all because of the point I made earlier about information traveling extremely quickly, and probably leaving Coruscant within seconds of witnesses seeing a massive super star destroyer lowering from the sky. The only reasonable method is to preemptively stop witnesses. Your proposal, that Palpatine ordered mass relocations, isn't mentioned in any of the source material, and indeed wouldn't solve the problem since nobody could find records of these relocations either. You'd also have to essentially be relocating within like a several thousand kilometer radius, and even that wouldn't be enough for anyone who could observe it through extra-biological means (aka people scanning things on ships). So you just invented an alternative explanation that neither works nor has any textual support for the sole purpose of lowballing.

You're misreading the source. That's not saying that he took the witnesses into the Lusankya to get brainwashed, lol. And it still wouldn't solve the issue of information traveling really quickly.

No, The New Essential Guide to Characters is in-universe.

So when I try to explain to you why the two variables are tradeoffs, and it's obvious one doesn't have infinitely more potency than the other, as if taking on 1 super battle droid is harder than taking on 100 quintillion b1 battle droids, you just respond by saying "nuh uh! Quality > quantity!"

This is why I'm probably not going to engage with you further on this subject - your replies don't actually engage with anything the other person was saying.

This reply is literally incoherent. What context is being misinterpreted? All I did was point out that you didn't understand the difference between character doing X feat and character's limits being X feat. There was no context there - it was just an explanation of basic logic.

😐 This reply literally doesn't address what it was responding to in even the most superficially possible manner, which perhaps isn't surprising given that your argument here was one of the worst of all time. The one point you tried to respond to was the catastrophic environmental effects part. You utterly failed:

1. As pointed out before, if the environmental effects don't matter then it's actually EASIER to lower it quickly than slowly, unless if you're lowering it so quickly as to be accelerating it significantly beyond 1g, but there's zero evidence Nihilus can do that, so why does it matter?

2. Let's talk about the environmental effects that lowering the Lusankya so quickly nobody could see it would have. If it takes the Lusankya 30 seconds to go from orbit to ground, that would still be witnessed potentially by millions of people, since a significant fraction of those in the visibility radius would happen to be gazing in that general direction at that time. But let's use that anyway:

If the Lusankya is lowered from about 100 km and comes to a standstill on hitting surface level, that would require Palpatine to carefully accelerate the Lusankya at 450 m/s^2 for 15 seconds and then decelerate it at the same rate for another 15 seconds, thus hitting a maximum speed of 6.75 kilometers every second . Then Palpatine would have had to:

1. Shield all of the insane sound, shockwaves, etc. coming from a massive ship multiple times the size of Mount Everest coming down orders of magnitude faster than any RL ship.

2. Shield the other effects of about ~10^20 joules of kinetic energy, aka about a thousand times more energy than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated.

And this is the conservative estimate. I mean, give me a break. 🙄

Once again, you don't even try to provide a coherent response to the sentences you were quoting. The entire idea behind this specific point was that [b]"yet you do when it comes about proving his superiority" is an unfounded accusation by you. This is the third time I've explained this to you, and you still haven't responded to me either by:

1. Showing me an example of this alleged hypocrisy, or, preferably,
2. Justifying the validity of your in-universe source.

Instead, you just repeat your original accusation. Yes, we get what your point was, now actually defend it.

Then why bother draining them?

This:

Courtesy of Tempest. And that's not a "no-limits fallacy".

Holy cringe, this is cringe. The point isn't that he was a nexus, the point is that the nexus was more powerful than ever, and thus stronger than Byss, which was described as the "darkest place in the galaxy", aka stronger than Korriban, DK, etc.

This reply literally makes no sense whatsoever. What does Sidious becoming a sith spirit have to do with what we were talking about? What does a vague qualitative prose like "embodiment of the dark side" have to do with the specific notation that the Eclipse > Byss?

OK, I stopped here. This was just too much ridiculousness to handle. I really want to try to be nice to everyone, but it becomes hard when:

1. You start throwing out snarky jabs (which I'm not bothered by - but they provide the basis for reciprocation)
2. Your series of rebuttals have been among the worst performances in KMC history.

Unless if you condense your reply to something less tedious or otherwise provide something that is of at least passable quality, I'm bowing out. [/B]

I really have nothing to counter here - because once again - you are going off-topic.

And I will put it in smaller format

-Sidious and his Dark Side Adepts enslaved Byss mutually. Checked.
-Sidious purposefully targeted the ignorants and the weak-willed because they were more susceptible to his influence. Checked
-so I went back and I checked the guide. And yes, you were right. As I said: I am not a guy who is 100% spending his time on geek stuff and debates. So, I concede.
-from other sources - all we have is that Palpatine buried the Lusankya using The Force(ergo: Fact Files). But we do not know how much it took him. Given that in the X-Wing novel it says that Palpatine could have ordered the eye-witnesses execution to hide the fact that something wrong was transpiring on Coruscant. That means the process of burial was slow and not instant. And Wedge did not want to believe it and instead he wished to think Palpatine somehow mind-wiped them.