Originally posted by RealistRacism
You know muscle memory is a thing, right Thor? In any case, Karness Muur was able to wield a lightsaber just fine, and compete with Darth Krayt despite not having used the weapon for thousands of years. Maul's trained a lot longer and harder in that area - going by his "most efficiently trained" and other training-related accolades - than Muur, so how is 10 measly years going to be enough time off to diminish his combative prowess? There's also Sidious, who had no time at all to go practice during his time as Chancellor, yet was perfectly able to fight on par with Mace... Brilliant framing, but that's just not reality. Kenobi wasn't merely 'slapped around a bit,' he was bashed and knocked out twice... Let's go into it;
Urm yeah, muscle memory only counts when you still have those muscles lol. Maul is literally missing half his body, so will have to retrain those fake muscles. Not to mention his muscle memory for the last 10 years will be based on Spider Legs Lmao
Urm Sidious had practice against the Maul bros. Not to mention he lost to Mace who is less powerful than himself 😬
Yes Kenobi was slapped around a bit. There was nothing broken or bashed in. He had some bruises but was not rubbing anything in pain once the combat began (unlike in his S6 fight with Dooku where Dooku hurt is ribs and he literally had his hand covering them during the fight). Ergo no indication of anything serious.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
On Raydonia; Kenobi takes Savage's elbow and fist to the face. Dazed, Obi-Wan then gets up and is smashed by an annoyed Opress' all-out punch (in the head) with a combination of fist and lightsaber hilt. This is what knocks him out the first time. Keep in mind that Savage could already crack thick, rock slabs with his punches pre-transformation (which massively multiplied his strength, as you know).
None of this is getting anything smashed in.
As for Savages feats, well Kenobi is quite durable, plus Maul clearly specified to Savage he wants Kenobi alive.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
On the Ship; Obi-Wan gets backhanded, thrown into crates, hurled onto the floor, and then punched in the face once more (all while still evidently dazed from the first K.O), knocking him out again.
Again, nothing was smashed in. Nothing broken. He didn't appear in any kind of major pain in any specific part of his body during the fight like he did against Dooku.
Kenobi is a Jedi Master. Kanan as a Padawan can get over days of torture and still give his best performance against the GI, yet Kenobi cant take a bit of a beating before hand to tackle a guy who hasn't fought in 10+ years and just got metal humanoid legs put on for the first time.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
We've already had the discussion about the legs before, with nearly everyone involved agreeing that if Maul wasn't a complete retard, he would've gotten used to them by the time of this fight. You've conceded this issue before, just give it up and save me the time of re-typing all of my points.
Urm no I think you're getting confused with the SECOND time he got new legs put on.
Maul blatantly wasnt back to form lol. Ergo why hes specifically stated to be far more powerful by the next episode. Yes hes not a retard, hence why he took Kenobi by surprise with Savages help.. duh!
Originally posted by RealistRacism
I'm mostly serious, as in I do believe Grievous > Maul, but my arguments are dramatised to really humiliate Maul. Well every one of those 2 Grievous fanboys in the history of SW debating can use whatever I'm posting, as you haven't properly addressed anything, which I've grown accustomed to.
Oh jeez.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Erm... I'm sure Grievous was aware of his surroundings... there's just nothing he could do about it. We've seen that GG has no problem tanking force attacks and getting right back up all guns blazing, but he can't do that when he's pushed against a wall in a tight space. Kenobi did something similar to him in S3, it was just missing the tackle (due to Jedi restraint probably). Based off that do we conclude Kenobi > Grievous? You might, had there not been a source stating they're equals. So this feat of Maul's was partially replicated by early CW Kenobi, whom Grievous would paste in S7.
No, weve seen Kenobi clearly giving him issues with TK attacks on multiple occasions. In S2 and S3 and ROTS Grievous flees after being TKd by Kenobi. In ROTS hes disarmed of his weapons. Maul has displayed greater TK than Kenobi.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Grievous was taken off guard... you know, like how Maul was with the dog, bounty hunter, Padawans etc. So it does happen Thor, as you know all too well. The 'overpowering' was due to what I said before; the surprise attack. Also, not being able to break free (if that's what you're alluding to) is not indicative of Maul's superiority. It's easier to keep someone against a wall than it is to break free from that position, and it's safe to say that had the situation been reversed, the result would've been the same for Maul.
Nah he was physically blitzed. Grievous saw Maul come in and take out his droids. Neither of them had their Sabers out, but Maul physically blitzed Greivous before Grievous could react, and then had him surrender with his Saber to Grievous neck.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
What are you saying? There are a lot of 'would haves' because I'm speaking about a hypothetical situation without the circumstances we see in Son of Dathomir. Are you okay?
He physically blitzed him in a tight environment, and TKd him in an open environment.
The first fight had Grievous sending several magna guards to SOFTEN Maul up, and Maul telling Grievous that Grievous isnt his equal, implying both combatants know Maul is the superior.
So thats literally 3/3 different encounters where Maul is the implied superior.
If anything the context was Grievous kick on Maul which was done after a bit of dun moch with Grievous noting the state of the battle and Maul getting frustrated over it.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Are you thick? The direct confrontations between Maul and Grievous are rife with circumstance, as I've explained, and are far too short to actually reach a verdict. There are no mental gymnastics, just simple reason which you haven't yet properly addressed.
Yeah the definition of thick isnt someone who doesnt simply accept whatever you are saying.
There are obvious mental gymnastics here. You are using a quote that states Grievous and Kenobi were equal as some kind of proof that Grievous is above Maul, when theres no proof even ROTS Kenobi is above The Lawless/SOD Maul Lmao. Your logic is stupid for 3 reasons:
1) Maul fought on par with Kenobi 3 times during TCW S4 & S5, each time on his Chicken Legs no less.
2) They both seem to have the TK advantage over Grievous and Maul has displayed superior TK to Kenobi.
3) Maul and Grievous faced each other 3 times. Sure Grievous did well against him, but Every Single Time in different environments and under different circumstances Maul was the one who was implied superior.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
I won't rest until Maul is below Carth Onasi, where he should be. But that's okay, because concessions like these make me happy, as I recall not long ago you had Maul >(>😉 Grievous right? If you were me, maybe you wouldn't lose on this issue so much. As the premier Maul lowballer here, I do know a lot about him, and I'm sure I'd make a better case for him being > Grievous than you 🙄
Well upon discussion I do appreciate Grievous not getting stomped by Maul and actually putting up decent fights.
Besides Id prefer to just agree to that and finish this nonsense.
Urm thats great that both you and DC think you can make a better case than me that Maul > Grievous. Except Im specifically tackling your nonsense logic that Grievous = Kenobi > Maul. And not taking into account overall feats.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Urm yeah, muscle memory only counts when you still have those muscles lol. Maul is literally missing half his body, so will have to retrain those fake muscles. Urm Sidious had practice against the Maul bros. Not to mention he lost to Mace who is less powerful than himself
"Talzin's magicks engulf Maul, wrapping him in tendrils of luminous green mist. Maul's emaciated body grows more muscled. Battlefield debris is transformed into a new set of legs. Talzin plucks dark clouds of madness from Maul's damaged mind. Maul writhes in pain, before arising reborn, son of Dathomir." - 'Revenge' Episode Gallery
Thor, you're using the 'metal legs excuse' again. It's been resolved, just get over it. Maul was jumping, spinning and kicking Kenobi around, so if there was a hinderance, it was negligible. On the Mace point, he's barely less powerful than Sidious and you could hardly call the latter's duel against the brothers 'practice.' He utterly dominated them while laughing his ass off.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not to mention his muscle memory for the last 10 years will be based on Spider Legs Lmao
To Summarise:
• You failed to understand what muscle memory is.
• You used the 'but his legs don't work properly' excuse yet again despite it being dealt with on another occasion.
• Maul was restored mentally and physically before his fight with Kenobi, which means his muscle memory is in full working order, leaving no excuses.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes Kenobi was slapped around a bit. There was nothing broken or bashed in. He had some bruises but was not rubbing anything in pain once the combat began (unlike in his S6 fight with Dooku where Dooku hurt is ribs and he literally had his hand covering them during the fight). Ergo no indication of anything serious.
You don't need someone to explicitly say "Ouch I've got a concussion!" to infer that they do indeed have a concussion. Kenobi was knocked out twice, which means he wouldn't be in peak shape. We see later in the Season, that when Obi-Wan's mad, he can just about solo the brothers. Yet here, Kenobi is unable to defeat Maul, which leads me to believe that his loss is due to more than just "giving in to anger." The time we really get to see Obi-Wan fight (on the balcony section after he gets his lightsaber back) he's off-balance, quick to tire, and appears to be dazed, all of which are side-effects of a concussion. Now I expect you to claim that you see nothing of the sort, but it's blatantly obvious to anyone who's watched the fight.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
None of this is getting anything smashed in. As for Savages feats, well Kenobi is quite durable, plus Maul clearly specified to Savage he wants Kenobi alive.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Again, nothing was smashed in. Nothing broken. He didn't appear in any kind of major pain in any specific part of his body during the fight like he did against Dooku. Kenobi is a Jedi Master. Kanan as a Padawan can get over days of torture and still give his best performance against the GI, yet Kenobi cant take a bit of a beating before hand to tackle a guy who hasn't fought in 10+ years and just got metal humanoid legs put on for the first time.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Urm no I think you're getting confused with the SECOND time he got new legs put on. Maul blatantly wasnt back to form lol. Ergo why hes specifically stated to be far more powerful by the next episode. Yes hes not a retard, hence why he took Kenobi by surprise with Savages help.. duh!
Originally posted by Darth Thor
No, weve seen Kenobi clearly giving him issues with TK attacks on multiple occasions. In S2 and S3 and ROTS Grievous flees after being TKd by Kenobi. In ROTS hes disarmed of his weapons. Maul has displayed greater TK than Kenobi.
"By limiting Grievous' movement to the catwalk, Obi-Wan was able to neutralise the General's usually ranging fighting style. Kenobi kept the fight close to the cyborg and, used to Grievous' moves now after so many encounters, it wasn't long before a clawed mechanical hand and the lightsaber it had once held clattered onto the deck."
When Grievous isn't limited, we see what happens in S7; Kenobi gets annihilated. Maul's TK being stronger than early CW Kenobi is what my argument hinges on, as if someone weaker than Maul can do it, it isn't as impressive as you make it out to be.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah he was physically blitzed. Grievous saw Maul come in and take out his droids. Neither of them had their Sabers out, but Maul physically blitzed Greivous before Grievous could react, and then had him surrender with his Saber to Grievous neck.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He physically blitzed him in a tight environment, and TKd him in an open environment. The first fight had Grievous sending several magna guards to SOFTEN Maul up, and Maul telling Grievous that Grievous isnt his equal, implying both combatants know Maul is the superior. So thats literally 3/3 different encounters where Maul is the implied superior. If anything the context was Grievous kick on Maul which was done after a bit of dun moch with Grievous noting the state of the battle and Maul getting frustrated over it.
Lmao, Grievous is well versed in Sith combat tactics now. Is Maul so pathetic that he would allow himself to be off-balanced by a psychological ability that he's a master of? I highly doubt that.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah the definition of thick isnt someone who doesnt simply accept whatever you are saying.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Maul fought on par with Kenobi 3 times during TCW S4 & S5, each time on his Chicken Legs no less.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
2) They both seem to have the TK advantage over Grievous and Maul has displayed superior TK to Kenobi.
Even Padawan Ahsoka can push Grievous away, and yet GG is her confirmed superior whilst holding back. You can't base a matchup between Grievous and another force wielder purely off how many pushes they land on him.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
3) Maul and Grievous faced each other 3 times. Sure Grievous did well against him, but Every Single Time in different environments and under different circumstances Maul was the one who was implied superior.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well upon discussion I do appreciate Grievous not getting stomped by Maul and actually putting up decent fights. Besides Id prefer to just agree to that and finish this nonsense. Urm thats great that both you and DC think you can make a better case than me that Maul > Grievous. Except Im specifically tackling your nonsense logic that Grievous = Kenobi > Maul. And not taking into account overall feats.
If ever I want a marathon conversation with you about Maul, all I need to do is dangle a little bit of bait and you bite 🙂
Anyway might as well leave a summary of my responses:
1) Muscle Memory. Though Im not a scientist, I am into fitness training and I KNOW Muscle memory in training wont work on a body thats never been trained.
Heres a wiki article that discusses how its down to new nuclei being formed in the cells which always remain in those muscle cells:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory_(strength_training)
So if nothing else this means Mauls upper body will be lacking sufficient strength until he starts lifting weights again. You can talk about Force Enhanced strength if you want, but clearly that wont be a thing with Artificial limbs, and the strength of those limbs will just have to suffice.
However Realist is right in that Muscle Memory regarding skills and martial arts is all in the brain.
But, again Im not a scientist, and unfortunately its hard to look up how getting a new body would effect your muscle memory, but Im pretty sure that memory is in relation to your current body and motor neurones. Your brain remembers how they work, and if youre put into a completely different body especially one of a different size, its a pretty safe bet you will have to retrain those muscle memories to adapt to the new body. But again thats just an educated guess.
That said EVEN WITH Muscle memory in your SAME Body, people need practice to be back at the level they were at. The only difference is you can reach your previous level of skill fairly quickly. Certain skills will come instantaneously like riding a bike. But lets be realistic. Just because I was good at bowling 10 years ago, doesn't mean Im going to instantly be just as good the next time I go. Practice makes perfect. Not practice then off for 10 years, then practice again. Point being its clearly not always Instantaneous even under normal circumstances.
I mean if a black belt who hasnt fought or practiced in 10 years goes up against a current black belt (of the same level) but who has been working up to that for the last few years, then who do you think is going to win that fight? Same with Basketball, same with any other sport or discipline. Sure you can do the martial arts equivalent of riding a bike pretty instantaneously. But youre not going to be on the level that you were at 10years ago when you were practising every day.
I mean this is just common sense, so I have no idea why its even a discussion.
Let alone talking about someone whose not practiced in 10 years AND has a completely different pair of lanky and clunky legs. And let alone the fact that these new mechanical legs are not responsive to The Force the same way your previous biological legs were.
On top of all that, Maul had trouble TKing a frigging Lightsaber into his hand right after getting revived. So you cant honestly be dense enough to watch that scene and think, MAUL NEEDED NO PRACTICE AT ALL.
I know youre not that dense, but you are trolling, because this really shouldnt even be a conversation. Maul clearly faced MAJOR COMBAT DISADVANTAGES in that episode. Not refutable at all.
2) Its not just about science, its about how things work in Canon.
We all have a quote on this site from Matt Martin that Rebels Maul was Older and OUT OF PRACTICE. Hes also stated something similar about Old Ben. Ive mentioned Force Enhanced strength and coordination above. Well we really dont know how that works, but clearly in Canon it requires consistent practice to be working at its best.
Moreover Filoni made a clear statement that Maul was disadvantaged on those Chicken Legs, and didnt have the same mobility with them. He also made it clear Maul was still in recovery as of Revival. So I dont understand why this is even being discussed, except to deny canon facts to support certain agendas.
And then further, we have clear dialogue from Savage of Mauls improvement from Revenge to Revival. He was shocked at the large power jump in such a short time. So where did that come from? Obviously because he had been getting back into fighting shape, mentally and physically.
And AGAIN Maul had Trouble TKing a damn Lightsaber when he just got revived. I mean Jeez. Talk about Major Reaching.
3) No I dont just go by a random voice actor. I go by Directors commentary as well. You know commentary that supports what we see, over a single fact file which directly contradicts what we see on screen.
Fact files can be taken as solid canon for things we can't possibly know or see on screen. Things like the number of Lightsaber forms Palpatine has mastered, or the extent of Mauls training. Thats where Fact Files are useful.
And you certainly dont take ONE statement from ONE Fact file and cling to it like its some kind of undeniable fact even when it contradicts what we see on screen and contradicts Director commentary of those on screen showings.
And then on top of that we Take this ONE FACT File and perform numerous Mental Gymnastics with it to decide Grievous is > Maul (never stated or ever even implied in any fact files). Hilarious.
4) Also Hilarious Im being accused of hypocrisy here according to when it suits my agenda. And yet these same guys who claim getting Metal Chicken legs and not fighting in 10+ years make absolutely NO difference to Mauls combat abilities, yet these exact same guys claim Vader is crap because he has cybernetic limbs and that Old Ben is crap because hes not fought in a long time. I mean really whose using double standards here? (INB4 someone claims I am without explaining where or how I am).
5) Kenobi literally got slapped around a little. Nothing broken, and no cuts. He spent most the time unconscious, so the little beating we see him get is literally all he got. That doesnt compare to Kanan being tortured for days on end. Hardly being able to stand, and yet putting up his best fight to date against the GI.
And no it wasnt just because he was in the Zone or Let go of his fear. Watch the fight, that only happened AFTER Ezra got knocked out. Im talking about before then.
Now I realise we are skirting between Canon and Legends here, but given both shows had the same director, it states something about Creator intentions.
Point being if a Padawan can recover so quickly and get back into the fight, then surely a Jedi Council Member can, after not enduring anywhere close to that level of pain and torture. All Kenobi had to do was wake up properly. So maybe, just maybe we should take Filoni at his word when he states that Kenobi lost BECAUSE he wasnt MENTALLY Ready for that fight.
6) Maul and Kenobi fought 3 times. Once in Revenge and Twice in Revival. When Maul fled he did not have much back up from Savage, because Savage had already been cut up Jeez. And talking about letting go of fear or being on the Zone, Kenobi CLEARLY WAS in the Zone when fighting off Maul and Savage. And yet still never once put Maul down.
Maul always held his own against Kenobi during TCW, despite being on his disadvantaged chicken legs.
And whats this OH BUT HE USED DUN MOCH Nonesense? He knew he was gonna be at a major disadvantage, which is why he didnt really want to take him on 1 v 1 in Revenge. So he uses a bit of dun much to gain the edge. So frigging what? Dooku uses Dun Moch all the time. So do none of those victories count? Heck Grievous used Dun Moch on Maul before kicking him. But oh that was Grievous being a bad ass right? 😬
Both combatants were facing disadvantages in the first fight, but the Major disadvantage was clearly all Mauls. But he managed to switch that around and beat Kenobi by gaining the mental edge. Which actually was a pretty bad ass scene.
FYI he began kicking Kenobi around prior to the Dun Moch. But tbf Kenobi was clearly winning before then until he got distracted with watching out for Ventress.
But again this was just fight number 1 (a fight Maul actually won) out of 3 fights, none of which Kenobi ever outright put Maul down in. Maul ALWAYS Held his own.
7. Maul has fought Grievous 3 times in SOD:
Fight 1, Inconclusive, but lines from both combatants suggest they both know Maul > Grievous.
Fight 2: Maul Physically blitzes Grievous. You can cry and whine about it all you want but thats exactly what happened.
Fight 3: Maul ended the conflict by TKing Grievous.
Every single encounter implied Maul was superior, even if 2/3 fights were not fought until the end. Whilst no canon source anywhere has ever suggested Grievous >/= Maul. Not once.
Of course Every Jedi/Sith has the TK Advantage. Yet not all of them can have much of an effect on Grievous via TK. Kenobi and Maul however clearly can. So for Kenobi and Maul that is a MAJOR Advantage they both have against Grievous.
And of course you/Realist is completely sick and tired of me ignoring the CONTEXT of those 3 fights. I mean one time the environment was too tight for Grievous, the other time the environment was too open for Grievous. I mean jeez what nonsense. They fought 3 times in 3 different environments. And every time the clear implication was Maul was the superior.
Jeez you really should have accepted my Maul >/= Grievous proposal, because now youre just looking like a butthurt fanboy.
Originally posted by MythLord
DarthThor is so not triggered that he responded to a two-week old comment everyone else forgot about. Everyone else but him, apparently...
Or perhaps he just came back to respond to Realist today?
You see its not hard to think. Perhaps you need to get out of your moms basement for some fresh air as well.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Or perhaps he just came back to respond to Realist today?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You see its not hard to think. Perhaps you need to get out of your moms basement for some fresh air as well.