Originally posted by ODG
^ I can take responsibility for my explanation not being clear enough. But you must take responsibility for clearly not reading the comics being discussed. Because you wouldn't be wasting your breath mindlessly insisting otherwise if you actually read Black Adam #1-12, Lazarus Planet: We Once Were Gods #1 and Superman: Lost #8.You're under the misimpression that I'm pretending Christopher Priest gets to dictate what is canon or not. No. But DC editorial does. Maybe Priest wanted the freedom to tell his own stories and DC editorial weren't originally sure his stories would fit well into DC continuity. Once they saw how it was turning out, DC decided to fold them into continuity.
They didn't do it slyly or mysteriously like with Warren Ellis' Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. They literally hammered the point repeatedly more and more as the stories progressed within the pages of the comics themselves.
When DC editors start clarifying within the pages of Christopher Priest's own book where the events take place relative to Dark Crisis, that's the company making the series canon.
When DC editors start placing Christopher Priest's original characters in other books and storylines like Lazarus Planet, that's the company making the series canon.
So do us both a favor and come back when you've read the comics.
I have read them. And I am saying that just because ideas are being recycled, doesn't mean it's suddenly canon, especially as DC have explicitly said it was non-canon. Of course, if DC explicitly say it's canon, then it is. But reusing concepts doesn't make it so.
Black Adam may well be canon. I'm not disputing that. I think you misunderstood me there. Malik clearly popped up etc.
But Superman Lost, which merely reuses art and ideas, isn't. Carlo Pagulayan drawing Teth and Black Adam like he appears in Black Adam doesn't make it canon. What makes it canon is if in Superman Lost (not in Black Adam or Lazarus Planet) DC say it's canon.
If Marvel did a What If? Cyclops Was Captain Krakoa (going back to my original What If? analogy), just because I drew Captain Krakoa/other characters like how they appeared in 616, or Mr Sinister talks exactly how he currently does in 616 (which is a recent phenomenon), doesn't make the What If?book canon.
Again, I'm not talking about Black Adam. I can agree with that being canon (in fact, I do).
But Superman Lost is explicitly a standalone story.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85This is what Christopher Priest said about Black Adam when they first started promoting it:
Black Adam may well be canon.
"Our new Black Adam series is its own animal. It exists completely independent of existing continuity while not contradicting or denying any of it. New readers do not need to 'prep' by reading anything else, do not need to research anything."
So your shabby reliance on initial promotions/interviews on top of ignoring what's on-panel? I shouldn't need to deconstruct the sheer hypocrisy being presented here by you trying to differentiate Superman: Lost and Black Adam. But I will continue to do so.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Specious oversimplification by you. Let's be more exact. You mean Black Adam's newly refined origin wherein Mamaragan banished Black Adam for 5,000 years into space where Black Adam languished and suffered until he returned to Earth should be ignored?
Carlo Pagulayan drawing Teth and Black Adam like he appears in Black Adam doesn't make it canon.
You mean the writer having Black Adam declare his new tagline, "Morningstar of Rameses II, Vicar of Hyksos, Lion of Pelusium, Thunder of Aton, Scion of the New Kingdom" that was first introduced in Black Adam should be ignored?
You mean the artist portraying Black Adam with his Theo Teth-Adam persona that was first introduced in Black Adam should be ignored?
You mean the story referencing Black Adam joining the Justice League at Superman's request which reflects what happened during the lead-up to Dark Crisis should be ignored?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Seems you're just twisting a promotional material's use of the adjective "self-contained" into "non-continuity" and hanging onto it for dear life. Self-contained can mean that you aren't required to read other stories to enjoy it. It doesn't necessarily mean "completely non-canon, alternate universe story". And it's all you're left with, after all. So, whatever, mang.
Again, I'm not talking about Black Adam. I can agree with that being canon (in fact, I do).But Superman Lost is explicitly a standalone story.
Originally posted by ODG
This is what Christopher Priest said about Black Adam when they first started promoting it:"Our new Black Adam series is its own animal. It exists completely independent of existing continuity while not contradicting or denying any of it. New readers do not need to 'prep' by reading anything else, do not need to research anything."
So your shabby reliance on initial promotions/interviews on top of ignoring what's on-panel? I shouldn't need to deconstruct the sheer hypocrisy being presented here by you trying to differentiate Superman: Lost and Black Adam. But I will continue to do so. Specious oversimplification by you. Let's be more exact. You mean Black Adam's newly refined origin wherein Mamaragan banished Black Adam for 5,000 years into space where Black Adam languished and suffered until he returned to Earth should be ignored?
You mean the writer having Black Adam declare his new tagline, "Morningstar of Rameses II, Vicar of Hyksos, Lion of Pelusium, Thunder of Aton, Scion of the New Kingdom" that was first introduced in Black Adam should be ignored?
You mean the artist portraying Black Adam with his Theo Teth-Adam persona that was first introduced in Black Adam should be ignored?
You mean the story referencing Black Adam joining the Justice League at Superman's request which reflects what happened during the lead-up to Dark Crisis should be ignored?
Seems you're just twisting a promotional material's use of the adjective "self-contained" into "non-continuity" and hanging onto it for dear life. Self-contained can mean that you aren't required to read other stories to enjoy it. It doesn't necessarily mean "completely non-canon, alternate universe story". And it's all you're left with, after all. So, whatever, mang.
Indeed. In short, I am ignoring interviews and relying on what DC themselves put out.
What Priest says about Black Adam, I kinda ignore - as you say, many elements show up in Lazarus Planet. As the interview itself says, he isn't contradicting current continuity in his Black Adam book anyway.
How his interview about Black Adam relates to Superman Lost, however, is a stretch.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85So at this point, the only thing you're relying on is that in an initial promotional ad, DC put out that Superman: Lost was a "self-contained" story. Ok.
Indeed. In short, I am ignoring interviews and relying on what DC themselves put out.
Why exactly are you so confident that adjective equates to "utterly non-canon, non-continuity, alternate universe"? Expand. Once you have expanded, please explain why your continued reliance is unaffected by everything that just happened in Superman: Lost #8?
Originally posted by ODG
So at this point, the only thing you're relying on is that in an initial promotional ad, DC put out that Superman: Lost was a "self-contained" story. Ok.Why exactly are you so confident that adjective equates to "utterly non-canon, non-continuity, alternate universe"? Expand. Once you have expanded, please explain why your continued reliance is unaffected by everything that just happened in Superman: Lost #8?
Plus the central conceit of Superman being lost for 20 years, when no other story has ever referenced it, during a time when J'onn seems to be in n52 costume (as you are referencing clothes), but Aquaman is in Rebirth clothes, Green Arrow is there with his little beard (so not n52), but he hasn't been part of the team since pre-52, it has Hal as the GL (as opposed to Simon or Jessica), Alfred is there...
So it is a story set in the JL's past, pretty much when they first started - but a time when beardy Ollie GA/Hal/MMH were part of the team, which hasn't really happened since pre-52, yet MMH is depicted with his new suit.
Just off the top of my head, that's what jumped at me. Not sure which Flash it is etc.
I think the point here is: Whatever happened *in* the Superman Lost story, isn't a proof that it related to whether it's canon or not.
For example, you can have an alternative Death of Superman universe from the original one(as in the Dark Multiverse).
Whatever elements in that universe are the same with the main universe isn't a proof for it's the main universe.
^ This post tells me you didn't read the actual comics. Hell... I even posted scans. barker
Because you wouldn't be wasting your breath mindlessly insisting otherwise if you actually read Black Adam #1-12, Lazarus Planet: We Once Were Gods #1 and Superman: Lost #8.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85The central conceit of Superman: Lost is that he was personally lost for 20 years but he was only gone for a few minutes for everyone else. And the story is still going on, how exactly are other comics supposed to reference it? Did you consider Superman's recent initial adventures on Warworld non-canon because they weren't immediately referenced by other comics? N1gga plz.
Plus the central conceit of Superman being lost for 20 years, when no other story has ever referenced it
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Setting aside the numerous mistakes you list, this is where you start wholly relying on artist depictions to precisely place when a comic takes place to judge their canonicity. Am I supposed to ignore how hypocritical that is given you utterly refuse to accept the artist depictions of Theo Teth Adam for same?
during a time when J'onn seems to be in n52 costume (as you are referencing clothes), but Aquaman is in Rebirth clothes, Green Arrow is there with his little beard (so not n52), but he hasn't been part of the team since pre-52, it has Hal as the GL (as opposed to Simon or Jessica), Alfred is there...So it is a story set in the JL's past, pretty much when they first started - but a time when beardy Ollie GA/Hal/MMH were part of the team, which hasn't really happened since pre-52, yet MMH is depicted with his new suit.
I mean... Theo Teth-Adam was never a character from the JL's past. Ollie was a part of Dark Crisis. MMH has been depicted in his new suit. Simon and Jessica haven't been relevant to the current Justice League in years. The list goes on.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85That's a lot of sentences to avoid the simple issue at hand: the only thing you have to rely on is that DC put out that Superman: Lost was a "self-contained" story. Ok.
Just off the top of my head, that's what jumped at me. Not sure which Flash it is etc.
Why exactly are you so confident that adjective equates to "utterly non-canon, non-continuity, alternate universe"? Expand. Once you have expanded, please explain why your continued reliance is unaffected by everything that just happened in Superman: Lost #8?
Originally posted by ODG
^ This post tells me you didn't read the actual comics. Hell... I even posted scans. barker
I think that's the point DS tried to make, no?
I.E: Whatever you gleaned from the Superman:Lost story isn't a proof for its canonicity, since alternate universe can have elements from the main universe, but still is an alternate universe.
And this has multiple precedents
Originally posted by ODG
^ This post tells me you didn't read the actual comics. Hell... I even posted scans. barkerBecause you wouldn't be wasting your breath mindlessly insisting otherwise if you actually read Black Adam #1-12, Lazarus Planet: We Once Were Gods #1 and Superman: Lost #8. The central conceit of Superman: Lost is that he was personally lost for 20 years but he was only gone for a few minutes for everyone else. And the story is still going on, how exactly are other comics supposed to reference it? Did you consider Superman's recent initial adventures on Warworld non-canon because they weren't immediately referenced by other comics? N1gga plz. Setting aside the numerous mistakes you list, this is where you start wholly relying on artist depictions to precisely place when a comic takes place to judge their canonicity. Am I supposed to ignore how hypocritical that is given you utterly refuse to accept the artist depictions of Theo Teth Adam for same?
I mean... Theo Teth-Adam was never a character from the JL's past. Ollie was a part of Dark Crisis. MMH has been depicted in his new suit. Simon and Jessica haven't been relevant to the current Justice League in years. The list goes on. That's a lot of sentences to avoid the simple issue at hand: the only thing you have to rely on is that DC put out that Superman: Lost was a "self-contained" story. Ok.
Why exactly are you so confident that adjective equates to "utterly non-canon, non-continuity, alternate universe"? Expand. Once you have expanded, please explain why your continued reliance is unaffected by everything that just happened in Superman: Lost #8?
But that is what you were doing - using costumes and artist depictions, so I.....used those (and even said 'as you are referencing clothes'😉. So since your central 'proof' is that Theo is drawn with a cane and has a distinctive hairstyle, and Black Adam has a specific way of talking.
We either accept both, or neither.
But sure. Handwave them all away as 'oh you are just wrong, my art is proof Superman Lost is canon, your art is you being hypocritical'.
We have no Jon Kent, which means pre Death of Superman, so let me know which version of the JL this is in Rebirth.
Ultimately, it is a lot of words being expounded to defend me having the words' self-contained'....and you defending what is essentially the artist drawing him the same way.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I don't see how is this related to what I said here?I think that's the point DS tried to make, no?
I.E: Whatever you gleaned from the Superman:Lost story isn't a proof for its canonicity, since alternate universe can have elements from the main universe, but still is an alternate universe.
And this has multiple precedents
Which is what my original point was with the What If? stories. They share 99% of the same background, but then.....diverge. Just because there are similar elements isn't proof they're canon.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Costumes? That's all I referenced? That's your pitiable attempt to rewrite the course of conversation when I already posted scans?
But that is what you were doing - using costumes and artist depictions,
I'll repost them once more. Afterwards, I will wholeheartedly lambast you for ignoring simple pictures. Don't insult your own intelligence with this. We've got more than just costumes. We've got newly refined origins, entirely new taglines, entirely new personas AND references to Black Adam joining the Justice League in the lead-up to Dark Crisis:
You mean Black Adam's newly refined origin wherein Mamaragan banished Black Adam for 5,000 years into space where Black Adam languished and suffered until he returned to Earth should be ignored?
You mean the writer having Black Adam declare his new tagline, "Morningstar of Rameses II, Vicar of Hyksos, Lion of Pelusium, Thunder of Aton, Scion of the New Kingdom" that was first introduced in Black Adam should be ignored?
You mean the artist portraying Black Adam with his Theo Teth-Adam persona that was first introduced in Black Adam should be ignored?
You mean the story referencing Black Adam joining the Justice League at Superman's request which reflects what happened during the lead-up to Dark Crisis should be ignored?
And all this for what? Because DC put out that Superman: Lost was a "self-contained" story when it was first advertised? Ok.
Why exactly are you so confident that adjective equates to "utterly non-canon, non-continuity, alternate universe"? Expand. Once you have expanded, please explain why your continued reliance is unaffected by everything that just happened in Superman: Lost #8?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998Ironically, I don't see how what you posted is related to the comics.
I don't see how is this related to what I said here?
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
That's the problem with all of those braindead Superman zombies. They see and imagine things that simply aren't there 😂Dies is the worst of them, as he's generally clueless about comics - he just wants to wank Clark from his garbage iphone.
Safe bet he voted for Trump, too.
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Qwerty is the only exception to the rule, a true man of culture 👆All others are inbred troglodytes 😊 Kind of like... thorbags.
😂 yeah he was about to say Shazam but didn’t finish. I thought he did but the lightening didn’t hit him so he didn’t turn. I NTA that will never admit my mistake. Too old for that crap. 👆