Originally posted by Robtard
He has a ton of allegations going back decades, some seem absurd; as mentioned above, two adults drinking/flirting and some are outright disturbing; his sexual advances on underage teenagers.There's also supposedly a video of him groping an 18yo restaurant worker.
Even if some are false allegations, which is likely true as you have people wanting in on the scandal when a celeb gets in the spotlight, he still comes off like a serial sexual predator. So f--k him if true, being a great actor doesn't make his actions acceptable. Having a confessed sexual predator as POTUS doesn't make his actions acceptable.
I am principally concerned with the allegations from the complainants who were 14-years-old at the time of the events: the anonymous man featured in the article in New York magazine, and Anthony Rapp.
The others were of the age of consent or the age of majority, and his alleged conduct in those incidents did not arise to the level of assault. An unwanted sexual advance does not even qualify as harassment unless it is persistent.
"An anonymous man told New York magazine that in 1983, when he was 14 and Spacey was 24, he began a sexual relationship with Spacey that allegedly culminated in Spacey attempting to rape him."
A 24-year-old having sex with a 14-year-old is rape by statute, so Spacey would be guilty of rape whether he attempted to assault the young man or not. The problem is that this crime is beyond the statute of limitations.
Likewise, the Rapp allegations are also beyond the statute of limitations. However, the circumstances of his allegations are more gray. His parents brought him to an industry party at the home of Spacey. He was bored and went to the bedroom of Spacey to watch television. At the end of the night, an inebriated Spacey returned to his room to go to sleep, and there was a young man in his bed. He made a pass at him, which was rejected, and that was that.
If you are a teenager at a party for adults in the home of a man who likes younger men, and you go to his bedroom, close the door, turn off the lights, and climb in his bed, and he enters the room inebriated at the end of the night to go to sleep and finds you there and makes a pass at you, and does not persist when you get up to leave, I do not know that is a federal case.
It is certainly frightening, but I do not know that there is the mens rea for a crime to have been committed.
It sounds like someone who was in an altered state of consciousness thought one of the adults at his party was waiting for him in his bed in the dark, because he was trying to seduce him. And when his advance was rejected, Rapp left the room, shaken but unharmed.
Not every bad experience that someone has is a crime.
This laundry list of "he asked me sexual questions," "he tried to kiss me," "we got drunk, and he groped me under the table, and I got up and left" is not a pattern of assault, it is a pattern of rejected advances.
If I had the victim mentality of some of these people, I would file a police report every time someone in-artfully made a pass at me.
Interesting, I remember Rapp's claims differently. IIRC, Rapp said Spacey picked him up from one room and carried him over to the bed and initiated heavy flirting. Even if Rapp was consenting, he's a 14yo boy and Spacey was the adult there, Spacey should have never engaged in step one, let alone taking him over to the bed. Again, this is one the grounds that what I remember from Rapp's claims being true.
I agree on several of the allegations, they seem like Spacey hit on them, he was rejected; didn't pursue further and that's that.
Am curious about this alleged video showing Spacey groping a man without consent; that's sexual predation if true.
Originally posted by Robtard
Interesting, I remember Rapp's claims differently. IIRC, Rapp said Spacey picked him up from one room and carried him over to the bed and initiated heavy flirting. Even if Rapp was consenting, he's a 14yo boy and Spacey was the adult there, Spacey should have never engaged in step one, let alone taking him over to the bed. Again, this is one the grounds that what I remember from Rapp's claims being true.I agree on several of the allegations, they seem like Spacey hit on them, he was rejected; didn't pursue further and that's that.
Am curious about this alleged video showing Spacey groping a man without consent; that's sexual predation if true.
Apparently, the man in question took a video of Spacey groping him on his phone and sent it to his girlfriend on SnapChat, which seems suspicious. You are being assaulted, but have the wherewithal to surreptitiously record his hand on your crotch over your clothes under the table? And instead of saving it as evidence to share with the police, you send it to your girlfriend on a video platform the entire purpose of which is for files to disappear after being viewed? Not to mention, police routinely claim to have evidence they do not have in order to get someone to confess to a crime for which they would otherwise not have sufficient evidence to prosecute. The whole thing does not pass the smell test.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Apparently, the man in question took a video of Spacey groping him on his phone and sent it to his girlfriend on SnapChat, which seems suspicious. You are being assaulted, but have the wherewithal to surreptitiously record his hand on your crotch over your clothes under the table? And instead of saving it as evidence to share with the police, you send it to your girlfriend on a video platform the entire purpose of which is for files to disappear after being viewed? Not to mention, police routinely claim to have evidence they do not have in order to get someone to confess to a crime for which they would otherwise not have sufficient evidence to prosecute. The whole thing does not pass the smell test.
These events does make it seem suspicious, almost like a set up.
Originally posted by Robtard
These events does make it seem suspicious, almost like a set up.
I believe that nonconsensual touching happened. I just do not believe it was criminal. And that is my issue with all of these allegations.
Do I believe that Spacey is attracted to young men? Yes.
Do I believe he has said and done inappropriate things in pursuit of young men? Yes.
Do I think that makes him a sex criminal? No.
I think it makes he a creep. But being a creep is not a crime.
And hearing things you do not like, and sometimes even being touched in a way you do not like, does not make you a victim.
Sometimes you have a bad experience, and there is no one to blame, because there is no one at fault.
There is no approved script for mating. It is messy. In pursuing another, one is walking a fine line of expressing his interest without transgressing the boundary of another, which is drawn in a different place for every person.
People behave the way they do, because it works. I guarantee that for the dozen accusers who found the behavior of Spacey objectionable, there were a dozen or more others who responded positively to it.
If one were to simply list all of his behaviors, e.g. giving someone individual attention, offering to buy him a drink, asking him about his sexual interests, asking him to go someplace private, trying to kiss him, etc. they would only seem nefarious to someone who is inclined to see men in general, or Spacey specifically, as predatory. To everyone else, that is just dating.
People need to start recognizing a distinction between what behavior is inappropriate and what behavior is a crime. This zero tolerance policy for offense has got to stop.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
And hearing things you do not like, and sometimes even being touched in a way you do not like, does not make you a victim.
If you get touched in a way you do not like without your permission that's sexual assault. The same could be depending on the language.
Do I think that it's necessarily a traumatizing experience and that people should press charges because of it? Not necessarily, but I do believe it makes sense to have laws that protect people against that.
When lack of consent was expressed any groping was stopped, so I do believe these behaviors are more due to an aggressive mating pattern than dishonesty or predatory urges.
Originally posted by Bentley
If you get touched in a way you do not like without your permission that's sexual assault. The same could be depending on the language.Do I think that it's necessarily a traumatizing experience and that people should press charges because of it? Not necessarily, but I do believe it makes sense to have laws that protect people against that.
When lack of consent was expressed any groping was stopped, so I do believe these behaviors are more due to an aggressive mating pattern than dishonesty or predatory urges.
I understand your point and I think you're right.
But...
I've been groped many times by both men and women - unwanted.
I'm not going to pretend it was sexual assault nor can I, with a clear conscience, state that it was sexual assault - regardless of what the laws are. Feels a bit skeazy to try and pass myself off as a victim and group myself into the category of people who really have been sexually assaulted.
I'm not traumatized, I'm not hurt, and I wasn't hurt at the time. Humans are sexual and do sexual things.
"not interested" and walk away works almost 100% of the time. For that small fraction left, they are victims and have been sexually assaulted (or worse).
Originally posted by Bentley
If you get touched in a way you do not like without your permission that's sexual assault. The same could be depending on the language.
That's not as black & white as you make it sound, especially when you're socialising with people you've only just met.
Say a drunken but friendly guy strikes a conversation with you.
He's a bit too touchy feely...extra long handshake, constantly puts his hand on your shoulder when making a point in conversation or gives you a hug that you feel is unnecessary.
You take all this good nature. It's either the alcohol or they guy's just a naturally affectionate person...
If later you found out that he was actually gay...would you then doubt his motives & think, sexual assault?
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
That's not as black & white as you make it sound, especially when you're socialising with people you've only just met.Say a drunken but friendly guy strikes a conversation with you.
He's a bit too touchy feely...extra long handshake, constantly puts his hand on your shoulder when making a point in conversation or gives you a hug that you feel is unnecessary.You take all this good nature. It's either the alcohol or they guy's just a naturally affectionate person...
If later you found out that he was actually gay...would you then doubt his motives & think, sexual assault?
Therein lies the problem: if conduct can become a crime based on the motivation or identity of the actor, then the conduct itself really is not a crime then, is it?
Originally posted by dadudemon
I understand your point and I think you're right.But...
I've been groped many times by both men and women - unwanted.
I'm not going to pretend it was sexual assault nor can I, with a clear conscience, state that it was sexual assault - regardless of what the laws are. Feels a bit skeazy to try and pass myself off as a victim and group myself into the category of people who really have been sexually assaulted.
I'm not traumatized, I'm not hurt, and I wasn't hurt at the time. Humans are sexual and do sexual things.
"not interested" and walk away works almost 100% of the time. For that small fraction left, they are victims and have been sexually assaulted (or worse).
Lol damn, wtf were you doing that dudes were groping you?