Everyone from TOTJ vs Count Dooku

Originally posted by Geistalt
Just found out Dooku also used the Dark Holocron (found here):

The most powerful Sith Holocron contained Sith teachings and histories that covered some hundred thousand years... The Dark Holocron was taken by Jedi Lorian Nod, who maintained that he saw "true evil" when he accessed the device. Motivated by Nod's claims, Dooku later used the Sith Holocron as well, unlocking its secrets in preparation for his transformation into Darth Tyranus.
―The New Essential Guide to Weapons & Technology

entire KMC forum while AncientPower tries to wank Kun:
YouTube video

Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force confirmed they weren't the same. Furthermore, Sheev himself confirms that all the Sith holocrons in the Jedi Library were ellaborate forgeries. Welcome to half a decade ago.

The worst part is that you think this is new whilst literally everyone else already knows about this.

Originally posted by AncientPower

There are sources saying you're completely wrong.

I can already see where this is going.

And we know Kun had already surpassed the Emperor prior to the majority of his power growth:

Yeah no. The quote you posted came out before Vitiate's creation so using that as an argument is incredibly disengenuous. Furthermore I love how you readily dismiss the Makak quote as having dozens of interpretations and calling it vague despite the quote you posting being even more vague (not that the Malak quote is actually vague). The word "darkest" could mean a great many things and might not even have anything to do with the Force. In fact OBM already made a thread about why Kun isn't the darkest power in the galaxy (if we take it to mean strength in the Force) which I know you've read and so far have not bothered to debunk.

Fun fact about the holocron is that it's the most powerful of all-time:

Which would include Lord Dramath's holocron.

And? Vitiate made his holocron when he was 10 years old for **** sake. This attempt at scaling is laughable. Congratulations AP you've successfully placed Kun above a 10 year old Vitiate.

This is me going under the assumption that holocron scaling is reliable as well which it isn't given if we took it as legit it would place 10 year old Vitiate above Darth Bane.

The fact that Vitiate was a far greater threat than the Star Forge posed, and that Exar Kun was already the strongest dark-sider in the galaxy before the holocron took his power growth rate and gave it a very significant boost. All of this indicates prime Exar Kun > EoMW!Vitiate >> the Star Forge. Not to mention Kun's collective feats are straight up better than anything Vitiate has until we get to proper SWTOR territory.

Yeah btw this is all going under the premise that Kun is stronger than MW Vitiate which he's not.

As for Kun having better feats that's up for debate but you'd have to succesfully prove Kun isn't below Malak in order for it to be viable.

Sorry AP I know you want Kun to be a top tier alongside Yoda and Sidious but no one sees him that way anymore. You may as well give up and accept his current placement (which isn't even that low anyway).

Originally posted by HP Legend

I can already see where this is going.

Yeah no. The quote you posted came out before Vitiate's creation so using that as an argument is incredibly disengenuous. Furthermore I love how you readily dismiss the Makak quote as having dozens of interpretations and calling it vague despite the quote you posting being even more vague (not that the Malak quote is actually vague). The word "darkest" could mean a great many things and might not even have anything to do with the Force. In fact OBM already made a thread about why Kun isn't the darkest power in the galaxy (if we take it to mean strength in the Force) which I know you've read and so far have not bothered to debunk.

Stop trying to claim retcon by time logic. That's not how it works. It's never been how it works. A quote isn't made any less viable by newer sources unless there is a direct contradiction. Ant's DeAgostini debunk regarding Windu and Revan is the exception, not the rule. I would've thought the Sheevites would remember this argument considering my stance is precisely the one you all took when people made the same argument regarding Sheev's supremacy quotes. What a wonderful selective memory you all have.

Leland Chee has made it emphatically clear that a retcon is the last resort taken, and that only occurs when a direct contradiction is made betwen sources. There is nothing contradicting the source material stating that he's the strongest. Your attemots to dismiss it are completely baseless.

LMFAO. Hold up, so when the Malak quote doesn't even mention the Force, it isn't vague at all. But when Kun's darkest power quote literally clarifies it refers to strength, it's vague. You are actually laughable.

I more than read OBM's argument, and it fell in on itself before it got to a 100 words.

Originally posted by HP Legend
And? Vitiate made his holocron when he was 10 years old for **** sake. This attempt at scaling is laughable. Congratulations AP you've successfully placed Kun above a 10 year old Vitiate.

Tenebrae didn't create it at all, that was Dramath. What Tenebrae did was corrupt the device and transform it into a weapon that could enhance the weilders power and destroy entities. The fact that it was measurable in any way to Tenebrae during his death indicates that the item itself outweighed Tenebrae's own power massively at the time he manipulated it.

Originally posted by HP Legend
This is me going under the assumption that holocron scaling is reliable as well which it isn't given if we took it as legit it would place 10 year old Vitiate above Darth Bane.

I see that line as Tenebrae simply having a far greater natural aptitude for the scope of alchemies/sorceries than Bane had. Bane wasn't weaker than Zannah yet her esoterical abilities dwarfed Bane's.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yeah btw this is all going under the premise that Kun is stronger than MW Vitiate which he's not.

Exar Kun per this quote was already the most powerful dark-sider in the galaxy at the time. Obtaining the holocron allowed him to fulfil his power growth far faster until he reached full potential. So Prime Exar Kun >> pre-prime Exar Kun > Pre-MW!Vitiate, add to that fact that the relevant Star Forge quote clarifies Vitiate's a far greater threat. Then they essentially overlap and render moot any kind of timeline discrepancies you're attempting to find.

Originally posted by HP Legend
As for Kun having better feats that's up for debate but you'd have to succesfully prove Kun isn't below Malak in order for it to be viable.

No one has proven the quote is absolute. Not even at my invitation. So no, not really.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Sorry AP I know you want Kun to be a top tier alongside Yoda and Sidious but no one sees him that way anymore. You may as well give up and accept his current placement (which isn't even that low anyway).

I don't need to want him when his feats prove he is up there with Yoda.

Who are the 4-5 TOTJ characters that can solo Dooku, AP?

Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ood Bnar(channelling Ossus), Thon and maybe Ulic.

Where is Freedumb these days?

Originally posted by AncientPower

Stop trying to claim retcon by time logic. That's not how it works. It's never been how it works. A quote isn't made any less viable by newer sources unless there is a direct contradiction. Ant's DeAgostini debunk regarding Windu and Revan is the exception, not the rule. I would've thought the Sheevites would remember this argument considering my stance is precisely the one you all took when people made the same argument regarding Sheev's supremacy quotes. What a wonderful selective memory you all have.

1. Yeah sure normally I don't agree with retcon by time logic but let's look at your argument for a sec:

You're trying to argue that a quote which places Kun above a character that hadn't even been created retcons a previous source that is perfectly clear as to its meaning.

2. This is a faulty comparison as Sheev's supremacy quotes were created to place him as the best regardless of who was created later. He was intended to be the ultimate evil. This quote accidentally puts Kun above Vitiate as the writers had no idea that he was going to be created.

3. I'm not one of the Sheevites lol. What a wonderful non existent memory you have.

Not to mention this quote doesn't even prove Kun>Vitiate as it's meaning is rather vague.

Leland Chee has made it emphatically clear that a retcon is the last resort taken, and that only occurs when a direct contradiction is made betwen sources. There is nothing contradicting the source material stating that he's the strongest. Your attemots to dismiss it are completely baseless.

Yeah and in this case there is a contradiction between two sources.

One of them says Malak>Kun and the other said Kun>Vitiate>SF Malak and given this contradiction you would obviously take the source which takes Malak>Kun as when the second source was released Vitiate hadn't been created.

One of them is a direct compairson between 2 characters and the other is a source which accidentally puts Kun above Malak via scaling from a character that hadn't been created at the time of its release.

I wonder which is more reliable...

LMFAO. Hold up, so when the Malak quote doesn't even mention the Force, it isn't vague at all. But when Kun's darkest power quote literally clarifies it refers to strength, it's vague. You are actually laughable.

Where does it say it's referring to strength? Here is the quote:

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

If we were to take the word "darkest" to mean most evil for example it would read like this:

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the most evil power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

As you can blatantly see there isn't anything grammatically incorrect about interpreting it as most evil for example. Just because it says the word strength at the end of the sentence that doesn't mean the word "darkest" was referring to strength.

Meanwhile the Malak quote literally says he has powers far greater than Kun's which is pretty self explanatory as to its meaning. You're trying to look for alternative meanings to a quote that simplistic.

Also the hositlity here is kinda unwarranted and really puts me off from writing responses as I don't really want to waste my time writing a post only to get attacked for it. I mean this forum is kinda dead and I'm trying to give myself something to do and at least give you someone to respond to give literally no one on this forum really wants to discuss anything with you.

Tenebrae didn't create it at all, that was Dramath. What Tenebrae did was corrupt the device and transform it into a weapon that could enhance the weilders power and destroy entities. The fact that it was measurable in any way to Tenebrae during his death indicates that the item itself outweighed Tenebrae's own power massively at the time he manipulated it.

You know what I meant when I said he created it.

Also it being able to imprison Tenebrae's spirit doesn't mean its power is comparable to his as its purpose is literally to imprison spirits lmao.

Not to mention all this does is place Kun above a 10 year old Vitiate.

I see that line as Tenebrae simply having a far greater natural aptitude for the scope of alchemies/sorceries than Bane had. Bane wasn't weaker than Zannah yet her esoterical abilities dwarfed Bane's.

Eh this is fair.

Exar Kun per this quote was already the most powerful dark-sider in the galaxy at the time. Obtaining the holocron allowed him to fulfil his power growth far faster until he reached full potential. So Prime Exar Kun >> pre-prime Exar Kun > Pre-MW!Vitiate, add to that fact that the relevant Star Forge quote clarifies Vitiate's a far greater threat. Then they essentially overlap and render moot any kind of timeline discrepancies you're attempting to find.

I mean the timeline discrepancies are relevant in this instance given the other evidence. Normally I'd agree we take a quote regardless of when it was made.

No one has proven the quote is absolute. Not even at my invitation. So no, not really.

Except for Ant.

I don't need to want him when his feats prove he is up there with Yoda.

Yoda>Revan>SF Malak>Kun.

😉

^

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. Yeah sure normally I don't agree with retcon by time logic but let's look at your argument for a sec:

You're trying to argue that a quote which places Kun above a character that hadn't even been created retcons a previous source that is perfectly clear as to its meaning.

Except it isn't 'clear' at all. No one, has been able to prove my assertions false.

Originally posted by HP Legend
2. This is a faulty comparison as Sheev's supremacy quotes were created to place him as the best regardless of who was created later. He was intended to be the ultimate evil. This quote accidentally puts Kun above Vitiate as the writers had no idea that he was going to be created.

Sheev's supremacy quotes are actually the only reason Kun isn't still considered the canonically most powerful Sith too. In fact, one of Kun's greatest quotes already debunks it. TCSWE states this:

Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

And this is meant to mean, he was once the most powerful Sith until Sheev came along. Which completely defecates on Malak who has his own part in the Encyclopedia.

Originally posted by HP Legend
3. I'm not one of the Sheevites lol. What a wonderful non existent memory you have.

Not to mention this quote doesn't even prove Kun>Vitiate as it's meaning is rather vague.

It's the furthest thing from vague.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yeah and in this case there is a contradiction between two sources.

One of them says Malak>Kun and the other said Kun>Vitiate>SF Malak and given this contradiction you would obviously take the source which takes Malak>Kun as when the second source was released Vitiate hadn't been created.

The release of new characters doesn't exempt them from pre-existing canonical, objective sources. What's worse is I'm still not seeing any argument as to why the Malak quote isn't interpretable.

Originally posted by HP Legend
One of them is a direct compairson between 2 characters and the other is a source which accidentally puts Kun above Malak via scaling from a character that hadn't been created at the time of its release.

In Canon, nothing is an accident unless it gets directly rebutted.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I wonder which is more reliable...

I'd probably go with the original source material as it is supreme.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Where does it say it's referring to strength? Here is the quote:

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

Because the sentence literally explains that he's going to get even stronger in the Force than that via a holocron which happens to be the most powerful in the mythos. It's obviously referring to the Force.

Originally posted by HP Legend
If we were to take the word "darkest" to mean most evil for example it would read like this:

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the most evil power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

As you can blatantly see there isn't anything grammatically incorrect about interpreting it as most evil for example. Just because it says the word strength at the end of the sentence that doesn't mean the word "darkest" was referring to strength.

That's exactly what it's saying, it clearly refers to him getting even more powerful via the hllocron, which Jedi VS. Sith confirms he did.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Meanwhile the Malak quote literally says he has powers far greater than Kun's which is pretty self explanatory as to its meaning. You're trying to look for alternative meanings to a quote that simplistic.

Except it isn't at all, the quote says this:

He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Do you understand that not only does it not refer to the Force anywhere here; in fact it references something else entirely, but the sentence immediately prior makes it redundant via your logic?

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies.

It's a list of things in a biography describing who Malak is. It doesn't make any sense at all reading it the way you are. It's also emphatically clear that Herndon understands that "Force power" and "powers" are very different statements.

What's worse for your argument is that everything to do with the blog is based on translating his abilities from the OG KOTOR into the RPG. One of the most important facets of his character is the plot-point revealed on the Star Forge prior to battling him. He has powers that allow him to feed on corrupted Jedi essences to increase his power as well as draining their life source to renew his own. Herndon can't say this outright because he goes out of his way not to spoil the game. Hence why he doesn't actually reference the Star Forge anywhere.

That's meant to be the major unique character trait for him in the RPG. That's the big secret. That's what gives him far greater powers than Nadd or Kun, he manufactured the Star Forge to allow him to do what he otherwise doesn't have the capability for. Two very difficult variants of Force drain.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I mean the timeline discrepancies are relevant in this instance given the other evidence. Normally I'd agree we take a quote regardless of when it was made.

The "other evidence" is far from the most reliable source. Unless you're okay with Lucien Draay; and everyone in the KotOR era who scales from him, giving prime Vader at the very least a good fight. As well as Bastila Shan; and everyone in KotOR who scales from her, being the equal of Count Dooku and Obi-Wan Kenobi:

While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.

Originally posted by HP Legend
[B]Except for Ant./B]

He does not debate on the subject, of his own volition.

Originally posted by HP Legend
[B]Yoda>Revan>SF Malak>Kun./B]

Exar Kun >> Spirit!Kun > Kyp & Luke > Yoda > Revan > SF!Malak

Will hopefully respond tomorrow though I have an essay to write so I may not get down to it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.

Both quotes refer to gameplay, lol.

I love it when AP gets triggered and does everything xhe can to create a nonsensical argument, or further argue senselessly.

Originally posted by Geistalt
I love it when AP gets triggered and does everything xhe can to create a nonsensical argument, or further argue senselessly.

-

Originally posted by Kurll
Both quotes refer to gameplay, lol.

Except literally everything to do with these articles is to do with gameplay. Thanks for that logic, though, not even being sarcastic.

So you admit your quote isn't valid then...?

It means his definition debunks the Malak quote, lol.

I'd be down for the Malak quote being entirely about game play. Dope.

Was Freedon Nadd even a WotC figure?