USA vs Europe (whose free speech is more free)

Started by gauntlet o doom10 pages

I guess we now live in a world where we don't teach kids "Sticks and stones... "

Originally posted by Putinbot1
We don't have swatting or dubious Police shootings (as much per capita) Bada swings and roundabouts.
... Which has nothing to do with free speech

You also don't have the kinds of gangs and homicide rates were have... But we're not comparing every aspect of society... Only free speech

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
If you say so...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/18/facebook-comments-arrest-prosecution

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/11/rakem-balogun-interview-black-identity-extremists-fbi-surveillance

https://mic.com/articles/39421/cameron-d-ambrosio-high-school-student-charged-with-terrorism-over-facebook-post

... All of those examples were directly inciting violence. In Europe you can go to jail for denying the Holocaust or training your dog to do a sig heil.

Mark Meechan never went to jail. And holocaust denial isn't illegal in the UK, Ireland, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, The Netherlands, Estonia, Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Serbia & Montenegro, Croatia or Slovenia. Out of the countries where it is illegal in Europe only 4 have imprisoned someone for it. France, Germany, Austria and Switzerland.

Right but it is illegal in certain countries like France and Germany. Those were just examples off the top of my head. Point being the bad examples of people being arrested/charged in Europe are very different from the ones you listed. There have been Americans locked up for political speech I believe but you would have to go back to like ww1.

Once again I will repeat my initial question... Does any European state have an equivalent to the 1st amendment in their Constitution?

Mike's going through cognitive dissonance 101.

Don't throw vague pot shots when you won't respond to my points directly... That's just weak

Even your Press is less free.

https://www.google.com.sa/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2018-04-25/us-falls-in-world-press-freedom-index%3fcontext=amp

I already responded to that and you said nothing back

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
If you say so...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/18/facebook-comments-arrest-prosecution

Calls to violence and to commit felonies against law enforcement - not protected speech.

Next...

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/11/rakem-balogun-interview-black-identity-extremists-fbi-surveillance

This guy had years of questionable content posted to social media where he said stupid shit like, "The only good pig is a dead pig", and he applauded a person who killed a policeman. He was part of a group that was targeting police. However, his arrest is questionable. They would have to have a warrant and they did. They followed the law. His charges didn't stick.

I'm on the fence about this. But perhaps he learned his lesson about being so vocal about killing police and wanting police dead.

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
https://mic.com/articles/39421/cameron-d-ambrosio-high-school-student-charged-with-terrorism-over-facebook-post

He posted that he was going to kill people. Correctly handled. Not protected speech.

So #2 is an iffy case but it followed the 4th amendment and they got a warrant. Feels like it violates the 6th amendment which is the right to a speedy trial. He was incarcerated for 5 months without bail while they tried to get him terrorism charges and go to trial. This is why they suspended his habeas corpus rights (which is explicitly listed in the US Constitution, Article 1, Section 9) - enemy of the state and attempting to rebel/danger to public safety.

So what are your thoughts?

Originally posted by mike brown
Right but it is illegal in certain countries like France and Germany. Those were just examples off the top of my head. Point being the bad examples of people being arrested/charged in Europe are very different from the ones you listed. There have been Americans locked up for political speech I believe but you would have to go back to like ww1.

Once again I will repeat my initial question... Does any European state have an equivalent to the 1st amendment in their Constitution?

I don't know. Oddly enough I'm not an expert on the constitutional frameworks of 51 different countries and my own doesn't even have a codified constitution.

Originally posted by dadudemon

So what are your thoughts?

That Bada's statement...

Americans don't get arrested, or our homes raided, for posts on social media.

wasn't correct.

I'm not an expert either which is why I phrase it as a question and not a statement. Cause I've heard it claimed that America is unique in this regard... And that many European countries will prosecute "hate speech" which would be protected under our 1st amendment. I think that makes us at least a little more free... Unless there's a counter example of things Europeans can say that we can't.

There's probably more freedom around censorship and obscenity in some European countries than the US. Likely some with less stringent libel and defamation laws. Some have better protections for freedom of the press.

The US is 45th for press freedom, how can it be claimed you have Free speech when your press isn't free?

@ jaden

I could see that in terms of what can be broadcast on the airwaves due to the fcc... I was talking more about policing the speech of individual citizens though.

Cause I don't understand how the fcc works exactly but I don't think it violates free speech just regulates a particular medium... There are mediums like online platforms and satellite radio that are pretty much uncensored.

It just so happens the news media in this country is based mostly around corporate cable networks.

It's mainly the attacks by politicians on facts as fake news. Through the law and the mob. Mob rule, flies in the face of your first ammendment and undermines the rule of law.

That is the conclusion from the 2018 World Press Freedom Index compiled by Reporters Without Borders, or RSF. The annual ranking, released on Wednesday and which also showed a big decline in freedom of speech across the world, dropped the U.S. two positions from its 2017 position, to No. 45 overall.

But having said that some European nations show this disparity in Europe Malta dropped to 65 from 47 for instance.

^ I don't care. Are you an actual bot?

Originally posted by mike brown
^ I don't care. Are you an actual bot?
Fair enough, I understand this sort of thing can be difficult to accept. Especially when you have always been told the opposite, but flag facts up as fake news Mike, it's the American way... now anyway.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
Fair enough, I understand this sort of thing can be difficult to accept. Especially when you have always been told the opposite, but flag facts up as fake news Mike, it's the American way... now anyway.
No it's the fact I tried asking you additional questions about that finding which you ignored and then cited it to me again.. at which point I pointed out I already tried responding to that point which you then ignored again and continue to make the same point over and over again with no follow up. So I can only assume you know nothing about the findings and just read one article which you want to quote to me again and again instead of having an actual discussion