USA vs Europe (whose free speech is more free)

Originally posted by mike brown
Fair enough.. I don't really care if we disagree tbh it's worth trying to understand different perspectives. I am still sort of unclear about some of the particulars of your position.

Like for example with the historical example of divisive rhetoric leading to oppression and even genocide... Isn't that also true of extreme religious dogma? Or socialist rhetoric like the idea of the 1% vs the 99%? At which point do we decide to ban this kind of speech given the bloodshed and division they have historically caused?

Good thing, as posting negative things about Islam can get you arrested.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
Right to worship is enshrined in secular societies, as an atheist, I personally can't stand religion, but as long as it's not asking me to believe it, i don't care. In the UK we already do take steps on the kind of religious rhetoric you talk of but we don't castigate all Catholics because of the IRA or all muslims because of ISIS. We do watch for extremism though, even in schools.

My basic point is if you are going to use that 1st stage of genocide argument that would apply to much more than just racism if you approach it logically and not just to try to tackle the specific ideologies you don't care for.

Originally posted by mike brown
The right to religious freedom is in the same amendment as freedom of speech.. so why draw that distinction.

My basic point is if you are going to use that 1st stage of genocide argument that would apply to much more than just racism if you approach it logically and not just to try to tackle the specific ideologies you don't care for.

In May 2014, members of Britain First invaded ten Bradford mosques, as well as ones in Glasgow,[45] Luton and East London.[20] During the mosque invasions—some of which they filmed—uniformed members of Britain First presented worshippers with army-issue Bibles and with leaflets on grooming gangs: they confronted elders about alleged "Muslim grooming gangs" in the area; and they proselytised Christianity, telling one person to "reject the false prophet Muhammad and read the Bible". In Bradford they also went to the re-election campaign office of a Muslim city councillor, demanding action on grooming gangs and telling him that he "had been warned".[63][45] In response, the Member of Parliament for Bradford West George Galloway said, "This is a grave and national issue. We demand full police action and protection of Mosques and worshippers."[64] The police said that they were investigating.[45]

In July 2014, Britain First entered the Crayford Mosque in South London, demanding that its segregated entrances be removed, with Golding saying, "When you respect women we’ll respect your mosques." A volunteer of the local Muslim association called Britain First "filthy people creating trouble in our society."[65] Two addresses were raided during the police investigation of this action, which led Britain First to protest at Bexleyheath Police Station. They sought to gain publicity by claiming that Golding was arrested for this protest, although the Metropolitan Police said that they had spoken with him and no arrests had been made.[66] Golding was jailed for eight weeks in December 2016 for breaking a court order banning him from entering mosques or encouraging others to do so.[67]

Originally posted by Silent Master
Good thing, as posting negative things about Islam can get you arrested.

I'm sure posting negative things about Christians gets you arrested too....honest!

Just like insulting straight while males gets you in trouble.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
Religions don't have the numbers in the west to oppress others, people like Britain First, prosecuted for going into mosques and threatening Muslims etc. Are a prime example of there difference they hid who they are with a clever marketing campaign with dog pictures for instance on social media whilst propagating hateful views and opinions. Religion and Ideology had a cross over their, in fact the Nazis were atheists too.
Although Britain First were bankrolled by a crazy protestant, online gambling tycoon.

For the second part that deals with Britain first... Those are intimidation tactics with implicit threats that I think we both agree shouldn't be allowed. I think our main difference is you think it shouldn't be allowed cause it's specifically white on brown aggression... Where as I think any such intimidation tactics by any group is unacceptable.

This brings us back to the idea minorities don't have the numbers to intimidate others. There's clear examples where this is not the case such as charlie hebdo, censoring Mohammed from South Park, and various death threats on critics of Islam as well as actual murders.

Originally posted by mike brown
You don't think women are oppressed in Islamic communities? You don't think gays who grow up in Evangelical comminutes get marginalized and made to feel " less than"? I think you are being very selective in your reasoning here.

I disagree.. it's not like I am saying they are practicing Sharia and stoning adulterers legally but Islam as a culture is just extremely patriarcical and women are treated as less powerful and are pressured by the social norms in that community to fall in line.

I also dated a Muslim chick for three years and her and her sisters would get beat by their parents for going out and drinking etc. I never met the parents cause if I did they would have disowned my ex unless I pretended to be a Muslim which I didn't feel up to doing.

Originally posted by mike brown
I disagree.. it's not like I am saying they are practicing Sharia and stoning adulterers legally but Islam as a culture is just extremely patriarcical and women are treated as less powerful and are pressured by the social norms in that community to fall in line.

I also dated a Muslim chick for three years and her and her sisters would get beat by their parents for going out and drinking etc. I never met the parents cause if I did they would have disowned my ex unless I pretended to be a Muslim which I didn't feel up to doing.

This has been one of the most civil discussions on the boards for quite some time. With that in mind let me get things back to normal by calling you all a bunch of fu¢king ¢unts.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm sure posting negative things about Christians gets you arrested too....honest!

Just like insulting straight while males gets you in trouble.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm sure posting negative things about Christians gets you arrested too....honest!

Just like insulting straight while males gets you in trouble.

Here's a Pakistani Muslim arrested for just that

https://www.lep.co.uk/your-lancashire/preston/preston-city-centre/preston-taxi-driver-very-sorry-for-anti-christian-outburst-1-9501735

As Jaden stated this thread has been polite and a functional discourse, let's please keep it that way.

Even in Pakistan Muslims can get arrested for Hate Crimes

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-21732448

Originally posted by Putinbot1
Depends on the version of Islam, there are as I'm sure you know lots and lots of different schools of Islam most moderated by the environment the Islam was propagated for the last few hundred years. Hilariously my Arabic is much better than most Muslims in Sub Saharan Africa for instance and whilst understandable and functional, It's far from fluent.

@ jaden that reminds of earlier you mentioned the American taboo around " the c word." I think it's mostly our women who rage at that word. The men are just intimidated into submission to pretend to be offended.. deep down they don't give a shit.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
Here's a Pakistani Muslim arrested for just that

https://www.lep.co.uk/your-lancashire/preston/preston-city-centre/preston-taxi-driver-very-sorry-for-anti-christian-outburst-1-9501735

As Jaden stated this thread has been polite and a functional discourse, let's please keep it that way.

Even in Pakistan Muslims can get arrested for Hate Crimes

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-21732448

Holy shit I was joking and you realize it's quite terrifying I was correct?

EDIT: Wait looking further this was someone threatening to rape christians lol.

Originally posted by mike brown
Sure, I guess my main point is oppression comes in many forms and not all of them can be illegal. As I said before, to me a civilized liberal society is one in which people are free to be dicks but there's just social pressure not to do so.

@ jaden that reminds of earlier you mentioned the American taboo around " the c word." I think it's mostly our women who rage at that word. The men are just intimidated into submission to pretend to be offended.. deep down they don't give a shit.

It seems to me though that it is almost inevitable regardless that you will always have hateful people around either way. I think the past century or so in this country has seen a massive amount of progress with regard to bigotry and this is all the while respecting free speech.. I don't see a reason to change this at this point in history. If anything it seems that Uber left wing policies have done more to fan the flames of nationalism and lead to the resurgence of far right extremism in the United States and Europe.

With regard to conspiracy theories like the anti vax people I am thoroughly convinced that trying to clamp down on that sort of speech would do nothing but heighten their victim complex and convince them the powers that be are actively trying to suppress "the truth." That is the problem with taking an authoritarian approach to speech. The only way to wage a successful war of ideas and words is with other ideas and words.

Originally posted by mike brown
With regard to conspiracy theories like the anti vax people I am thoroughly convinced that trying to clamp down on that sort of speech would do nothing but heighten their victim complex and convince them the powers that be are actively trying to suppress "the truth." That is the problem with taking an authoritarian approach to speech. The only way to wage a successful war of ideas and words is with other ideas and words.

Originally posted by mike brown
It seems to me though that it is almost inevitable regardless that you will always have hateful people around either way. I think the past century or so in this country has seen a massive amount of progress with regard to bigotry and this is all the while respecting free speech.. I don't see a reason to change this at this point in history. If anything it seems that Uber left wing policies have done more to fan the flames of nationalism and lead to the resurgence of far right extremism in the United States and Europe.

With regard to conspiracy theories like the anti vax people I am thoroughly convinced that trying to clamp down on that sort of speech would do nothing but heighten their victim complex and convince them the powers that be are actively trying to suppress "the truth." That is the problem with taking an authoritarian approach to speech. The only way to wage a successful war of ideas and words is with other ideas and words.