The most powerful Saiyans becoming Oozaru immediately would be the only way they'd stand a chance in hell against the Ginyu Force... And even then the Saiyan(s) in question would need to have a base PL of at least 12,000, otherwise they still wouldn't be on par with Captain Ginyu -- even in their Oozaru forms. King Vegeta was the most powerful Saiyan back then, but there's no indication what his exact PL was. All we know for sure is that Vegeta had already surpassed his father when he was just a kid:
https://i.imgur.com/hoTAySQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eIMjQHL.jpg
...Which mean's KV's PL was below 18,000(which is what Vegeta's PL was during the Saiyan saga.)
Regardless, even if KV was more powerful than Captain Ginyu as an Oozaru, the GF could still win if they just use Guldo -- time-freeze + tail clip on the potentially threatening apes would do the trick.
...But sans Oozaru transformations, a single member of the GF, like Recoome, would decimate the entire Saiyan race, effortlessly.
Keep your Bruce Faulconer, this is the real shit. 👆
What happens when the Ginyu Force's energy-reserves get depleted after battling/blasting billions of Saiyans - and then remaining Saiyans proceed to dog-pile and smother each Ginyu Force member to the point of asphyxiation?
If the Ginyu Force members don't planet-bust Vegeta - they face the possibility of being overwhelmed.
DBZ characters run out of energy.
Even Vegeta was almost killed by Krillin, after he exhausted all of his energy stale-mating with Goku.
Billions of Great Ape Saiyans could overwhelm exhausted Ginyu Force members.
They won't run out of energy. A single blast from any noteworthy member of the GF could obliterate the entire lot of Saiyans. That's just how power-differentials work in DB -- superior numbers are irrelevant if they're all significantly weaker than the guy(s) they're fighting:
As mentioned, the *only* way for the Saiyans to have even a slight chance against the GF is if the most powerful among them become Great Apes at the onset... But even then, their base PL would have to be at least 12,000 in order for them to match Captain Ginyu's PL of 120,000 as Great Apes... And there would have been very few Saiyans who were remotely that powerful at base(King Vegeta was realistically about the only one who may have been that strong back then.)
...But even in that case, Guldo's time-freeze could easily be used to counter/defeat a potentially threatening Ape.
Originally posted by Galan007
They won't run out of energy. A single blast from any noteworthy member of the GF could obliterate the entire lot of Saiyans. That's just how power-differentials work in DB -- superior numbers are irrelevant if they're all significantly weaker than the guy(s) they're fighting:As mentioned, the *only* way for the Saiyans to have even a slight chance against the GF is if the most powerful among them become Great Apes at the onset... But even then, their base PL would have to be at least 12,000 in order for them to match Captain Ginyu's PL of 120,000 as Great Apes... And there would have been very few Saiyans who were remotely that powerful at base(King Vegeta was realistically about the only one who may have been that strong back then.)
...But even in that case, Guldo's time-freeze could easily be used to counter/defeat a potentially threatening Ape.
Becoming Great Apes from the onset wouldn't be difficult with their ability to create artificial moonlight.
There should also be at least a few Saiyans close to King Vegeta in power - meaning they could gang up on Ginyu and kill him.
Other Saiyans that were less powerful would still be able to handle the other Ginyu Force members, and Guldo's time-freeze only works as long as he can hold his breath.
If the Great Ape Saiyans work to separate each Ginyu Force member and kill them separately, they could win.
Originally posted by CaveDude33211
No DBZ character at that point could kill an entire planet in one punch - not even Frieza.
Yeah I didn't mean he would destroy the planet in one punch. I mean it would only take at most a single punch to kill any Saiyan on that planet outside of the most powerful oozaru. Not to mention Burter could easily just zip around one shotting anyone before they were able to transform. And as Galan pointed out; even is the strongest ones were able to transform and were above the captain in power, Guldo could easily freeze time, cut off the tail and then let Ginyu and the others handle them after they turn back
Originally posted by CaveDude33211That also assumes the Ginyu Force...who know about Saiyan genealogy...would just stand there and allow the Saiyans to transform, which is very doubtful. They'd almost certainly slaughter any potentially threatening Saiyans before they even got the chance to transform into Great Apes.
Becoming Great Apes from the onset wouldn't be difficult with their ability to create artificial moonlight.
Originally posted by CaveDude33211There's no evidence to support that -- especially when a Saiyan like Nappa, with a PL around 4,000, was considered a hyper-powerful, elite-class warrior. Frankly, there's no way to even prove that King Vegeta himself had a PL of 12,000. I'm just assuming that IF any of them were that powerful back then, it would've been him.
There should also be at least a few Saiyans close to King Vegeta in power - meaning they could gang up on Ginyu and kill him.
That being said, Saiyans with PLs around the 10,000 mark would have been extremely rare/uncommon back then. 99.9999% of the race would have been absolute fodder to Captain Ginyu, even as Great Apes. But again, even IF there were a few Saiyans who were capable of posing a legitimate threat to Ginyu as Apes...and they were actually allowed to fully transform into Apes before getting killed...Guldo could easily take care of them regardless: time-freeze+tail clip=no monkey form.
Originally posted by CaveDude33211That's anime filler only. In the manga, Guldo's time-freeze was a purely psionic ability that had nothing to do with him holding his breath.
Other Saiyans that were less powerful would still be able to handle the other Ginyu Force members, and Guldo's time-freeze only works as long as he can hold his breath.
Originally posted by CaveDude33211Not a chance, tbh. This is the Ginyu Force's battle to lose in every sense.
If the Great Ape Saiyans work to separate each Ginyu Force member and kill them separately, they could win.
Actually it looks like every time he let go of his breath, time started up again.
https://imgur.com/cWKB2Nr
https://imgur.com/xuILV7N
https://imgur.com/kiFs1pc
and again here:
https://imgur.com/zQ9g3Fw
https://imgur.com/feX0hVW
At least that's sure what it looks like.
Plus Guldo doesn't work that well under pressure:
https://imgur.com/Usflw3R
https://imgur.com/Cjh2QsG
When he's getting swarmed by literally thousands of 18,000 - 20,000k warriors, screaming and blasting, I find it very unlikely he'd be at all effective.
He's got paralysis, which he has proven can work on....two people at once. So it might help him but not all that much.
--------------------------
Realistically, King Vegeta is probably around 10k. So he'd be rocking a 100k power level in his ape form. He has a royal court:
With guards and whatnot, so it's not unlikely to believe that he's surrounded by Saiyan Elite, proabably a bunch of Nappa's, around 4-5k.
So that gives the saiyans about 2 dozen or so elites that can respond well enough to the main body of the ginyu force.
Then there's Captain Ginyu, who would undoubtedly be stronger than King Vegeta in my opinion, but if the saiyans know they're coming, they'd like recall Prince Vegeta back to the planet, and he had already at this point surpassed his father, so he's likely anywhere from 10k to 12k in strength. Now between the Vegeta's , the Saiyan Elite, and the thousands of ozzaru fodder troops, they have a legitimate chance to beat the force. Moreso really, they are highly likely to overwhelm the force.
True, numbers don't always matter, but distractions have almost always worked well in DBZ:
https://imgur.com/qPwTqxJ
https://imgur.com/YtxgnHf
https://imgur.com/NAbYFK3
https://imgur.com/NMsKwhZ
and there would be plenty of distractions to go around.
If the Ginyu Force destroys the light source for the Oozarus though, any one of them except Guldo could likely sweep the planet raw.
Originally posted by DamborgsonAs mentioned, no concrete evidence supports the notion that Guldo's time-freeze was dependent on his lung capacity in canon. Even Vegeta described it as a PSYCHIC ability in the manga:
Actually it looks like every time he let go of his breath, time started up again.https://imgur.com/cWKB2Nr
https://imgur.com/xuILV7N
https://imgur.com/kiFs1pcand again here:
https://imgur.com/zQ9g3Fw
https://imgur.com/feX0hVWAt least that's sure what it looks like.
Plus Guldo doesn't work that well under pressure:
What it looks like to me is that Guldo can only maintain his psychic hold over time for a very finite period before his mind/power fatigues and he is forced to withdraw... Not that it really matters for the purposes of this battle. All he'd need to do is freeze time for a few seconds to preform a tail-clip IF it came down to that. /shrug
Originally posted by DamborgsonThe number of beings in front of him is entirely inconsequential. When Guldo pauses time, everything stops.
When he's getting swarmed by literally thousands of 18,000 - 20,000k warriors, screaming and blasting, I find it very unlikely he'd be at all effective.
Originally posted by DamborgsonI doubt he'd ever need to go the TK route to immobilize the Saiyans, but yeah, he's got that in his bag of 'psi-tricks' as well:
He's got paralysis, which he has proven can work on....two people at once. So it might help him but not all that much.
Originally posted by DamborgsonAssuming that every Saiyan is already an Oozaru when the Ginyu Force arrives, then yeah, it's possible. But again: Captain Ginyu is, in all likelihood, considerably more powerful than any of the Saiyans(Oozaru or not), so a single blast from him could obliterate the entire lot of them.
Realistically, King Vegeta is probably around 10k. So he'd be rocking a 100k power level in his ape form. He has a royal court:https://i.ytimg.com/vi/EQDHQq6YIDE/maxresdefault.jpg
With guards and whatnot, so it's not unlikely to believe that he's surrounded by Saiyan Elite, proabably a bunch of Nappa's, around 4-5k.
So that gives the saiyans about 2 dozen or so elites that can respond well enough to the main body of the ginyu force.
Also keep in mind that Nappa's PL was 4,000 when he came to earth during the Saiyan saga. He would have logically been a good bit weaker yearS earlier when Planet Vegeta was still around, yet still would've held his upper-echelon/elite status within the Saiyan hierarchy. This means that the VAST majority of Saiyans would have been well below the 4k mark at base.
Originally posted by DamborgsonYeesh, I wouldn't go that far. We know Vegeta had surpassed his father at some point when he was still a kid, but we don't know exactly *when* that was.
but if the saiyans know they're coming, they'd like recall Prince Vegeta back to the planet, and he had already at this point surpassed his father, so he's likely anywhere from 10k to 12k in strength.
We certainly don't have any reason to believe 'Lil Vegeta was already more powerful than his father here, though:
...Which is how old he was when their planet was destroyed.
We also don't really have any way of knowing what King Vegeta's canon PL actually was. I'd wager that even a PL of, say, 8,000 still would have put him WAY beyond any of his peers back then, and as such, I feel like even assuming his PL was 10,000 is a bit of an exaggeration... I certainly wouldn't put it beyond that in retrospect, however. /shrug
Originally posted by DamborgsonI don't really see distractions being any sort of deciding factor here... Not when a single blast from Ginyu could wholesale slaughter the entire Saiyan populace.
True, numbers don't always matter, but distractions have almost always worked well in DBZ:https://imgur.com/qPwTqxJ
https://imgur.com/YtxgnHfhttps://imgur.com/NAbYFK3
https://imgur.com/NMsKwhZand there would be plenty of distractions to go around.
Originally posted by DamborgsonYeah, that's not even a question. Oozaru is the *only* chance the Saiyans have here(and it's an extremely slim one, imo, as I still think this is very much the Ginyu Force's battle to lose.) Barring Great Apes, Recoome alone could rape all of the Saiyans.
If the Ginyu Force destroys the light source for the Oozarus though, any one of them except Guldo could likely sweep the planet raw.
Originally posted by CaveDude33211
What happens when the Ginyu Force's energy-reserves get depleted after battling/blasting billions of Saiyans - and then remaining Saiyans proceed to dog-pile and smother each Ginyu Force member to the point of asphyxiation?If the Ginyu Force members don't planet-bust Vegeta - they face the possibility of being overwhelmed.
DBZ characters run out of energy.
Even Vegeta was almost killed by Krillin, after he exhausted all of his energy stale-mating with Goku.
Billions of Great Ape Saiyans could overwhelm exhausted Ginyu Force members.
In Minus it's stated that only several thousands saiyans lived in planet Vegeta, so unless something changed in Broly, there can't be more than maybe a few million at the most.
Originally posted by Galan007
As mentioned, no concrete evidence supports the notion that Guldo's time-freeze was dependent on his lung capacity in canon. Even Vegeta described it as a PSYCHIC ability in the manga:What it looks like to me is that Guldo can only maintain his psychic hold over time for a very finite period before his mind/power fatigues and he is forced to withdraw... Not that it really matters for the purposes of this battle. All he'd need to do is freeze time for a few seconds to preform a tail-clip IF it came down to that. /shrug
The number of beings in front of him is entirely inconsequential. When Guldo pauses time, everything stops.
I doubt he'd ever need to go the TK route to immobilize the Saiyans, but yeah, he's got that in his bag of 'psi-tricks' as well:
https://i.imgur.com/GjKHgwO.jpgAssuming that every Saiyan is already an Oozaru when the Ginyu Force arrives, then yeah, it's possible. But again: Captain Ginyu is, in all likelihood, considerably more powerful than any of the Saiyans(Oozaru or not), so a single blast from him could obliterate the entire lot of them.
Also keep in mind that Nappa's PL was 4,000 when he came to earth during the Saiyan saga. He would have logically been a good bit weaker yearS earlier when Planet Vegeta was still around, yet still would've held his upper-echelon/elite status within the Saiyan hierarchy. This means that the VAST majority of Saiyans would have been well below the 4k mark at base.
Yeesh, I wouldn't go that far. We know Vegeta had surpassed his father at some point when he was still a kid, but we don't know exactly *when* that was.
We certainly don't have any reason to believe 'Lil Vegeta was already more powerful than his father here, though:
...Which is how old he was when their planet was destroyed.
We also don't really have any way of knowing what King Vegeta's canon PL actually was. I'd wager that even a PL of, say, 8,000 still would have put him WAY beyond any of his peers back then, and as such, I feel like even assuming his PL was 10,000 is a bit of an exaggeration... I certainly wouldn't put it beyond that in retrospect, however. /shrug
I don't really see distractions being any sort of deciding factor here... Not when a single blast from Ginyu could wholesale slaughter the entire Saiyan populace.
Yeah, that's not even a question. Oozaru is the *only* chance the Saiyans have here(and it's an extremely slim one, imo, as I still think this is very much the Ginyu Force's battle to lose.) Barring Great Apes, Recoome alone could rape all of the Saiyans.
Sorry I just saw this !
Well I don't think anyone was implying that it wasn't a psychic technique or something along those lines. It's just that him holding his breath seems to be related to it:
Which was posted in response to you saying:
"That's anime filler only. In the manga, Guldo's time-freeze was a purely psionic ability that had nothing to do with him holding his breath."
Which seems to not be true.
I don't see where this respect for Guldo is coming from honestly.
Guldo with TWO opponents charging him, was unable to form any kind of retaliation against them.
You meant to tell me that you think he'd be able to handle about a dozen saiyans steam rolling him? I certainly dont think so, because he has not demonstrated any sort of competence with that ability.
And on top of that, he became exhausted from two time stops.
Not to mention:
Originally posted by Galan007
The number of beings in front of him is entirely inconsequential. When Guldo pauses time, everything stops.
This is literally not true. Unless you think Whis just got his with a time stop somewhere, then it has to have limits of course. We can't assume anything more than what we saw, which means he gave a brief time stop to his immediete area only
He's borderline fodder here.
Also as per thread:
Originally posted by cdtm
The Saiyans know they're coming, and are prepared.
The Saiyans are prepared. Therefore this:
Originally posted by Galan007
That also assumes the Ginyu Force...who know about Saiyan genealogy...would just stand there and allow the Saiyans to transform, which is very doubtful.
Also becomes irrelevent, as the planet would start in Oozaru form per my "plan".
In that plan, King Vegeta himself would face off against Ginyu, with Kid Vegeta on his side.
I think it's pretty obvious that as a "kid" Vegeta was already stronger than his pops, but if you want to get unnecessarily technical then yeah I suppose he didn't specify his age lol.
Regardless, it's fair to say that Vegeta was at a pretty high level.
So as per plan, Ginyu would get singled out by King Vegeta, prince Vegeta and a few royal guards, while his other troops literally engage in a battle against thousands of 20k PL plus creatures, all going ape shit (heh heh) on them.
Would the Ginyu force still win? Quite possibly, but it's not a done deal by any means.
And once Guldo is killed, Recoome who doesn't know how to dodge takes about a hundred consecutive Oozaru mouth blasts and hits the ground, then things start looking a whole lot different with only Jiece and Burtur providing ground support while Ginyu fights off the royal family.
Last for now:
Originally posted by Galan007
Statements like that can only be taken to the extent of the resources that are available. What Piccolo is saying is, it doesn't matter if Vegeta and Gohan were there, not that literally thousands of Gohans and Vegetas would be irrelevent all firing at once.
And that was in response to Buu, a far different enemy. Because numbers have indeed factored in before:
Sure, their teamwork won't be as fine polished, but a prepped saiyan army will indeed work together.
Originally posted by DamborgsonThat is evidently just the psychic fatigue he experiences after exerting himself to stop time, as nothing in canon suggests that Guldo's time-freeze is related to his lung capacity.
Sorry I just saw this !Well I don't think anyone was implying that it wasn't a psychic technique or something along those lines. It's just that him holding his breath seems to be related to it:
Which was posted in response to you saying:
"That's anime filler only. In the manga, Guldo's time-freeze was a purely psionic ability that had nothing to do with him holding his breath."
Which seems to not be true.
I don't see where this respect for Guldo is coming from honestly.
Even the Daizenshuu 7 flatly states that it is a purely psychic ability that uses up a good deal of his stamina:
Time Stop
First Appearance: Chapter 273
Category: special
People: GurdSpecial Characteristics: Gurd's unique technique. Using his psychic powers, he is able to stop time. Using this, he can stop his opponents' movement when they launch attacks, avoid attacks, hide himself somewhere, and conceal himself from his opponent. However, this technique has some weaknesses. First, he cannot stop time for a very long period. Also, the stamina this consumes is intense, and if he uses it continuously he will use up all his power. However, it seems this is because Gurd's power is low.
The holding his breath thing is anime-only... But again, *how* he stops time doesn't really matter here. The ability itself is all that would matter.
Originally posted by DamborgsonExcept the Saiyans have very easily exploitable weaknesses: tails. Remove them(which can be done with a simple katana, ffs), and the Great Ape/massive powerup goes byebye.
Guldo with TWO opponents charging him, was unable to form any kind of retaliation against them.
Additionally, we also know that the scouters they had access to back then could register power-levels from considerable distances away -- as seen when Freeza was monitoring the Saiyan populace from space as he destroyed the planet:
So before they even arrived on planet Vegeta, the Ginyu Force would already know if any Saiyans existed who could rival Ginyu's PL of 120,000. King Vegeta would undoubtedly be the most powerful Saiyan, yet nothing suggests that his PL could even break 100k as an Ape, so there ultimately wouldn't be any threat at all to Ginyu(a PL difference of 20,000 would still be massive at this level.) Aside from him, even the 'elite class' Saiyans would only have PLs in the 20-40k range as Apes, at the MOST.
...Or the Ginyu Force could always just nuke the planet/Saiyans FROM space, I guess, but that's no fun. srug
Originally posted by DamborgsonGuldo doesn't need to handle "a dozen" of Saiyans here. His only role would be handling ONE Saiyan at the most(and that's only IF KV was a legitimate threat to Ginyu, which he logically wouldn't be)... After that he is completely expendable.
You meant to tell me that you think he'd be able to handle about a dozen saiyans steam rolling him? I certainly dont think so, because he has not demonstrated any sort of competence with that ability.
Originally posted by DamborgsonHe wouldn't need to stop time more than once or twice here, tbh.
And on top of that, he became exhausted from two time stops.
Originally posted by DamborgsonEh, I'm obviously not saying that time stops across the entire universe or w/e(lol?) But yes, everything stops in Guldo's general vicinity... And I'm assuming most/all of the Saiyans would be in his general vicinity here. Wouldn't be much of a battle if they weren't.
This is literally not true. Unless you think Whis just got his with a time stop somewhere, then it has to have limits of course. We can't assume anything more than what we saw, which means he gave a brief time stop to his immediete area only
Originally posted by DamborgsonWhere PL alone is concerned, you're absolutely correct. He's only sitting at roughly 10k.
He's borderline fodder here.
But again: his special ability is all that matters here.
Originally posted by DamborgsonThat would be really stupid of them, imo.
In that plan, King Vegeta himself would face off against Ginyu, with Kid Vegeta on his side.
Even highballing KV, his PL would still only be around 100k as an Ape. There is NO proof that 'Lil Vegeta was already =/> than his father at the time when their planet was destroyed, so we can only assume that 'Lil V would be weaker than him here.
Ginyu could literally one-shot both of them with moderate effort.
Originally posted by DamborgsonAmong the Saiyans, I agree... But that certainly doesn't mean he's a threat to Ginyu at this age. Realistically, 'Lil Vegeta could've just had a PL of 5,000, and still been stronger than every other Saiyan at the time(aside from his father.) /shrug
Regardless, it's fair to say that Vegeta was at a pretty high level.
Originally posted by DamborgsonAttacks from beings with PLs ranging from 20-40k will have absolutely NO effect on Ginyu. He'd no-sell them all.
So as per plan, Ginyu would get singled out by King Vegeta, prince Vegeta and a few royal guards, while his other troops literally engage in a battle against thousands of 20k PL plus creatures, all going ape shit (heh heh) on them.
Originally posted by DamborgsonOh I definitely think it's a done deal. Ginyu could literally kill all of them with a single blast. Numbers mean nothing when Ginyu would still be several times more powerful than all of them barring KV himself(who he still could logically one-shot.)
Would the Ginyu force still win? Quite possibly, but it's not a done deal by any means.
Lets put it another way: if Ginyu generates a large blast that is capable of killing KV, it WILL kill all of the other Saiyans as well.
Originally posted by DamborgsonNumbers mean absolutely nothing when Ginyu is THAT far beyond all of them.
Statements like that can only be taken to the extent of the resources that are available. What Piccolo is saying is, it doesn't matter if Vegeta and Gohan were there, not that literally thousands of Gohans and Vegetas would be irrelevent all firing at once.
Originally posted by DamborgsonInteresting choice, given that ALL of them were immensely weakened here.
Lets flip the script: if EVERY being from EVERY universe would have teamed up against Jiren at the very start of the ToP(when they were all at full power), do you honestly think that their superior numbers alone would have allowed them to defeat Jiren(lets assume he was actually bothered enough to engage them)... Or do you think Jiren still would have raped the lot of them casually, because he was simply WAY beyond all of them, even while suppressed..?
Originally posted by DamborgsonGiven the difference in power, numbers legitimately mean nothing here. One serious blast from Ginyu is all it would take to end this.
Sure, their teamwork won't be as fine polished, but a prepped saiyan army will indeed work together.
