Kurse vs Hela

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
IDK, I remember the hammer was vibrating in her hand. I assume she must have drained the energy or power out of it.

One thing is certain however, Mjolnir is a magical object. We know that at least, magic has an effect on it. Like when Odin cursed it with the worthy spell.

So, Hela using magic to destroy it could be possible.

All am saying is, we don't know the extent of the strength feat.

You're correct, but I interpreted it as a result of the energies building up within the hammer as it was crushed.

YouTube video

Unfortunately, it seems I'm going to end up backing Josh and h1 here (and believe me, it's not something I enjoy).

I'm iffy to attribute Hela's Mjolnir crushing to pure physical strength, for the simple reason that had she been that strong, she should have been able to easily stomp Thor in a physical confrontation. In fact, I'd say if she was strong enough to casually crush Mjolnir in her grip, she should have been able to knock out Thor (if not outright kill him) with a single punch.

We know that's not the case. I mean, it was clear that Hela was stronger than Thor (seeing as she overpowers him multiple times) but it wasn't such a mismatch that Thor was unable to keep up with her for a bit.

I'm sure her physical strength played a part in the feat, but I also think there was something more there.

I agree it definitely wasn’t all strength. It was magic as well.

Well if we want to simplify it, we can always say that Hela is a magical being (as proof of her creating things out of thin air and easily healing from grevious wounds) so we can simply say she has magical strength. And it was this magical strength that allowed her to crush mjolnir.

Solved.

Yall literally have nothing to base this on. Hela did not use magic even one time the entiire movie. The only thing she did was bring the eternal flame down, that wasnt her magic it was the eternal flames.

Make up all the head cannon you want, she crushed it plain and simple.

Her generating spikes and swords out of nothing is not magic? If not then where did they come from?

Also how did she summon her own portals?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Unfortunately, it seems I'm going to end up backing Josh and h1 here (and believe me, it's not something I enjoy).

So long as you are objective (which I assume you've already googled), we are gonna end up agreeing more often than not.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Her generating spikes and swords out of nothing is not magic? If not then where did they come from?

Also how did she summon her own portals?

She never summoned her own portals. That portal opened up as soon as Odin died. Hence why she needed the bifrost

Originally posted by FrothByte
Unfortunately, it seems I'm going to end up backing Josh and h1 here (and believe me, it's not something I enjoy).

I'm iffy to attribute Hela's Mjolnir crushing to pure physical strength, for the simple reason that had she been that strong, she should have been able to easily stomp Thor in a physical confrontation. In fact, I'd say if she was strong enough to casually crush Mjolnir in her grip, she should have been able to knock out Thor (if not outright kill him) with a single punch.

We know that's not the case. I mean, it was clear that Hela was stronger than Thor (seeing as she overpowers him multiple times) but it wasn't such a mismatch that Thor was unable to keep up with her for a bit.

I'm sure her physical strength played a part in the feat, but I also think there was something more there.

While it is certainly theory you can have. And ppl are free to think what thy want, the whole "she used something else other than strength to crush Mjolnir" theory is, however, an unsupported one. There is nothing in the scene (at least nothing that I see) that even hints to her using anything else other than physical strength. We need evidence to make conclusions, not headcanon.

Characters get high "feats" that don't make sense all the time. Thor has surviving the same energies that can forge Uru (making it seem like his durability is even higher than that of Mjolnir via simple transitive property) is one of them, Hela has crushing Mjolnir.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
She never summoned her own portals. That portal opened up as soon as Odin died. Hence why she needed the bifrost

Amd why did her portal come straight to where Thor and Loki were?
And her swords and spikes?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
While it is certainly theory you can have. And ppl are free to think what thy want, the whole "she used something else other than strength to crush Mjolnir" theory is, however, an unsupported one. There is nothing in the scene (at least nothing that I see) that even hints to her using anything else other than physical strength. We need evidence to make conclusions, not headcanon.

Characters get high "feats" that don't make sense all the time. Thor has surviving the same energies that can forge Uru (making it seem like his durability is even higher than that of Mjolnir via simple transitive property) is one of them, Hela has crushing Mjolnir.

Yes, I agree that there's no proof that she used anything else other than physical strength to crush Mjolnir. But that doesn't mean we should simply disregard her performance against Thor either and the fact that Kurse overpowered Thor more easily than Hela did.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Amd why did her portal come straight to where Thor and Loki were?
And her swords and spikes?

I think it is more like it went to where Odin died.

You can say that her swords and spikes are a form of "magic" , of course. Or at least "superscience that is so advanced that it may as well be magic" ergo the way Asgardians are portrayed in the MCU. Kinda like Thor's lightning (aka their "superpower"😉.

I think what Shadowfure is trying to say is that Hela did not perform any spell-casting-y magic spells that makes her do a diverse set of things outside of her demonstrated powerset. And her ninja-casting some sort of Mjolnir-weakening spell seems like it is outside what she was shown to be able to do in the movie. At least that's what I think he's trying to say.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes, I agree that there's no proof that she used anything else other than physical strength to crush Mjolnir. But that doesn't mean we should simply disregard her performance against Thor either and the fact that Kurse overpowered Thor more easily than Hela did.

We don't disregard them, of course. The same way we don't disregard that Thor has a lot of showings that makes the Star "feat" a little high in terms of what he is able to do (same with Hela crushing Mjolnir).

I will disagree with Kurse overpowering Thor easier than Hela did, in fact in the closest apples-to-apples comparison we have of "overpowering", both Hela and Kurse had Thor in a neckhold. Thor was able to power out of Kurse's choke, he was unable to do so with Hela's (he was so overpowered that he was practically helpless).

Kurse chokes Thor

https://youtu.be/ZJneSSYTZFo (0:34)

Hela chokes Thor

https://youtu.be/Mv3-G1k8VFY (1:48)

I think had Hela been relentless like Kurse (instead of monologuing and gloating all the time) the fight would have ended in seconds. She had him dead to rights several times and she would stop and taunt him.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
IDK, I remember the hammer was vibrating in her hand.

I think that was to demonstrate that Mjolnir couldn't "push thru" or "pull out" or her grip (it was either trying to escape it or trying to push against it). That in itself is a massive strength "feat" for Hela as she did so effortlessly.

Anyway, just dropping by to give my MvS buiddies (all of you except h1, cuz he sucks, I'm kidding. You too, h1.) a big hello, don't have much time to do MvS replies these days but I will try to drop in occasionally).

Originally posted by Nibedicus
We don't disregard them, of course. The same way we don't disregard that Thor has a lot of showings that makes the Star "feat" a little high in terms of what he is able to do (same with Hela crushing Mjolnir).

I will disagree with Kurse overpowering Thor easier than Hela did, in fact in the closest apples-to-apples comparison we have of "overpowering", both Hela and Kurse had Thor in a neckhold. Thor was able to power out of Kurse's choke, he was unable to do so with Hela's (he was so overpowered that he was practically helpless).

Kurse chokes Thor

https://youtu.be/ZJneSSYTZFo (0:34)

Hela chokes Thor

https://youtu.be/Mv3-G1k8VFY (1:48)

I think had Hela been relentless like Kurse (instead of monologuing and gloating all the time) the fight would have ended in seconds. She had him dead to rights several times and she would stop and taunt him.

The difference between Thor's "star feat" and Hela's "Mjolnir feat" is that we haven't really seen anything in the movies to contradict Thor's star feat. We know he can survive falling from extremely high heights without any injuries. We know he survived the Bifrost explosion and Sokovia explosion without injuries. We know he took a repulsor blast point blank to the face and didn't even suffer a rash. We know Hulk punched him multiple times in the face and he didn't even suffer a broken lip.

So though the star feat is one of his highest feats, it's still consistent with what we've seen from him previously.

Hela's Mjolnir feat in comparison is not consistent with the way she fought Thor. Hulk was not strong enough to stop Mjolnir's flight trajectory. Hela was strong enough to completely stop Mjolnir in mid flight which should mean that Hela is way stronger than Hulk. Yet Thor was still able to block Hela's punches in a way that he was never able to do with Hulk.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The difference between Thor's "star feat" and Hela's "Mjolnir feat" is that we haven't really seen anything in the movies to contradict Thor's star feat. We know he can survive falling from extremely high heights without any injuries. We know he survived the Bifrost explosion and Sokovia explosion without injuries. We know he took a repulsor blast point blank to the face and didn't even suffer a rash. We know Hulk punched him multiple times in the face and he didn't even suffer a broken lip.

So though the star feat is one of his highest feats, it's still consistent with what we've seen from him previously.

Hela's Mjolnir feat in comparison is not consistent with the way she fought Thor. Hulk was not strong enough to stop Mjolnir's flight trajectory. Hela was strong enough to completely stop Mjolnir in mid flight which should mean that Hela is way stronger than Hulk. Yet Thor was still able to block Hela's punches in a way that he was never able to do with Hulk.

I don't recall Thor blocking one of Hela's punches can you timestamp it? All I recall was him blocking a slash. And he blocked it at the wrist, meaning it wasn't where the energy of the swing was focused (at least that is how I see the physics behind it)

https://youtu.be/Mv3-G1k8VFY (2:01)

If you are comparing the how Hulk's punches seem "heavier", I guess it can be explained by Hulk's size giving his punches "more mass" while Hela is much smaller and is throwing around a lot less mass (but in "feats" where she applies direct strength like grabbing and crushing, she seems to show practically limitless strength). Imagine Hela being smaller and lighter (but much stronger) and Hulk being more massive and heavier.

OR we can go back to my original argument. Characters have "feats" that contradict each other all the time. Some low some high. We know Hela's upper limits are way up there but that doesn't mean she can have a few low showings here and there.

Edit. IF you would humor me and allow me to justify things via my own "headcanon" (not supported by facts and not an argument I am making), I always saw Hela as having "dynamic strength" due to her amping herself via whatever internal energies she has (kinda like how Surfer does it). But that's just me, of course, purely speculative theory.

Well, I guess we just have to go with strength untill somebody can ask waititi

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I think it is more like it went to where Odin died.

You can say that her swords and spikes are a form of "magic" , of course. Or at least "superscience that is so advanced that it may as well be magic" ergo the way Asgardians are portrayed in the MCU. Kinda like Thor's lightning (aka their "superpower"😉.

I think what Shadowfure is trying to say is that Hela did not perform any spell-casting-y magic spells that makes her do a diverse set of things outside of her demonstrated powerset. And her ninja-casting some sort of Mjolnir-weakening spell seems like it is outside what she was shown to be able to do in the movie. At least that's what I think he's trying to say.

“I come from a place where magic and science are the same thing.”

So yes her swords and spikes were made out of nothing. That was magic.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
“I come from a place where magic and science are the same thing.”

So yes her swords and spikes were made out of nothing. That was magic.

OR science. Because "they are the same thing".

I’m not going to derail a thread based on this insignificant difference of opinion.