Kurse vs Hela

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Well, by that definition any and all materials can be influenced by spells for as long as fiction allows.

I am not rebuking her ability to spellcast, I am saying there is no evidence that she can and nothing in the movie showed that she cast a spell to affect Mjolnir. As what Shadowfyre said, we do not use headcanon to explain showings, we use evidence.

Non Sequitur. Being "magical" does not assign her specific powers outsie what she has demonstrated. Being able to rival Odin in power does not give her the same powers.

Mjolnir is a better source for the explosion as with the lightning and everything. Hela has never demonstrated lightning abilities.

Thor did have zero chance of facing her H2H. Like I said, characters have highs and they have lows. Thor has an ultra high durabality "feat", Hela has an ultrahigh strength "feat". We accept the highs but we do not use it as an average.

Mjolnir on it's own has no lightning abilities. It was Thor the one who channeled his lightning powers through the hammer.

So, if the feat was one of mere strength, the hammer had no reason to explode.

Again, there's something more going in that scene than mere strength.

Logic is always valid to debate, we know that Hela's powers/magic is top tier and that Mjolnir is vulnerable/prone to magic. That, and the fact that Hela has no other feat to colaborate the inmense strength feat that is being alluded, we can't remove the magic factor from this equation.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Because people dont like Helas feat of crushing Mjolnir so they are trying to add reasons for her being able to do so even though there is nothing to back it up.

Mjolnir was actively trying to return to Thors hand but could nit because if her grip on it. And then, you see her clench her hands and cracks appear. Thats enough for me to say strength was involved.

It's called being unbiased. I actually find Hela to be one of my favorite MCU characters, furthermore, I find Kurse to be an overestimated character, but am not going to ignore facts to benefit her status vs kurse.

Mjolnir returning to Thor's hand is product of magic, Hela could have just overrun Thor's magic effects over Mjolnir.

Again, we can't remove magic from the equation, specially considering that Mjolnir is magic susceptible.

Thats fine and all. Now prove it

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Thats fine and all. Now prove it

I can't prove how much magic affects the feat, just like you can't prove that the feat is one of sole strength.

This is a case in where the feat turns invalid, because you can't really conclude on the nature of it.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Mjolnir on it's own has no lightning abilities. It was Thor the one who channeled his lightning powers through the hammer.

So, if the feat was one of mere strength, the hammer had no reason to explode.

Again, there's something more going in that scene than mere strength.

Logic is always valid to debate, we know that Hela's powers/magic is top tier and that Mjolnir is vulnerable/prone to magic. That, and the fact that Hela has no other feat to colaborate the [B]inmense strength feat that is being alluded, we can't remove the magic factor from this equation. [/B]

It comes off like it's her raw strength going up against the power of the hammer and she wins. The energy clearly comes from the hammer, it's why we do not see it until the hammer begins to crack apart.

Doesn't he use the hammer to create a tornado? That's not a natural ability of Thor. It seems like he makes it stop raining too at one point. The hammer has weather abilities and it seems likely Thor augments his own lightning with it.

Originally posted by Surtur
It comes off like it's her raw strength going up against the power of the hammer and she wins. The energy clearly comes from the hammer, it's why we do not see it until the hammer begins to crack apart.

Doesn't he use the hammer to create a tornado? That's not a natural ability of Thor. It seems like he makes it stop raining too at one point. The hammer has weather abilities and it seems likely Thor augments his own lightning with it.

All Father Odin Borson:

Are you Thor, the God of hammers?

That hammer was to have you control your powers, to focus it.

It was never your source of strength

Again, Mjolnir is prone to magic but it's not magical on it's own.

So, no, there is no evidence to claim that Mjolnir would explode when crushed.

So clearly there is something going in that scene more than mere strength.

Saying it was never the source of his strength doesn't mean it has zero inherent power.

You're also ignoring the fact that the crackles of lightning do not begin to appear until the hammer begins to take damage.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
All Father Odin Borson:

Again, Mjolnir is prone to magic but it's not magical on it's own.

So, no, there is no evidence to claim that Mjolnir would explode when crushed.

So clearly there is something going in that scene more than mere strength.

Pretty sure the fact that Mjolnir can fly, return to its owner and decipher worthiness makes it a magical artifact.

Originally posted by Surtur
Saying it was never the source of his strength doesn't mean it has zero inherent power.

You're also ignoring the fact that the crackles of lightning do not begin to appear until the hammer begins to take damage.

The only ability I think it granted Thor was flying. But casting lightning is Thor's power, and Thor's alone.

Isn't like Vision should have been able to summon lightning.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Pretty sure the fact that Mjolnir can fly, return to its owner and decipher worthiness makes it a magical artifact.

Yes, but someone's got to channel his magic through it.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Yes, but someone's got to channel his magic through it.

Nope. It was sitting in the middle of a desert with no one unable to pick it up in Thor 1. Nobody was channeling magic through it at that time yet it was still showcasing magical abilities. Therefore it's a magical artifact.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Nope. It was sitting in the middle of a desert with no one unable to pick it up in Thor 1. Nobody was channeling magic through it at that time yet it was still showcasing magical abilities. Therefore it's a magical artifact.

....The enchantment was Odin's. Again, someone has to enchant it.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Mjolnir on it's own has no lightning abilities. It was Thor the one who channeled his lightning powers through the hammer.

So, if the feat was one of mere strength, the hammer had no reason to explode.

Again, there's something more going in that scene than mere strength.

Logic is always valid to debate, we know that Hela's powers/magic is top tier and that Mjolnir is vulnerable/prone to magic. That, and the fact that Hela has no other feat to colaborate the [B]inmense strength feat that is being alluded, we can't remove the magic factor from this equation. [/B]

For the longest time Thor didn't know that the lightning powers came from him. This is alluded to in Ragnarok and proven when he isn't able to summon or cast lightning after Mjolnir was broken until he was "awakened" during the Hulk fight (save perhaps in Avengers 2 during the Norn cave scene). At best we can surmise that he knew how to summon lightning but not yet to unleash it himself.

Mjolnir is a lightning storage device (plus other abilities of course). In many instances prior to Ragnarok when Thor wanted to unleash powerful bolts of lightning, he'd charge up the hammer (he does it by lifting the hammer up and letting lightning course thru it) via a summoned bolt from the sky. At one point he even needed more than Mjolnir, using the Empire State Building (at least I think it was the ESB) as a second storage device in order to one shot multiple Leviathans during the battle of NY. This is how Thor "focused" his lightning powers before he learned to unleash it from within at Ragnarok.

It is not unreasonable to assume that some leftover lightning energy would be stored in Mjolnir ready to be unleashed when needed. When he fought Malekith, he was able to draw out lightning energy from Mjolnir when he used it to block some of Malekith's attacks and used it to ground slam lightning at Malekith without having to lift it up and summon a bolt from the sky.

When Hela broke the hammer, whatever stored energy that was in the hammer was unleashed. That is certainly a far better explanation than Hela having lightning powers she was never alluded to have nor ever demonstrated again.

This makes the most sense relative to his showings and story and is the most consistent with the evidence provided and needs no headcanon nor assumptions made.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
....The enchantment was Odin's. Again, someone has to enchant it.

Yes, he placed an enchantment on the weapon... making it an enchanted weapon. In other words, it's a magical artifact. And it maintained that magical property even though Odin was not actively coursing magic through it.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
For the longest time Thor didn't know that the lightning powers came from him. This is alluded to in Ragnarok and proven when he isn't able to summon or cast lightning after Mjolnir was broken until he was "awakened" during the Hulk fight (save perhaps in Avengers 2 during the Norn cave scene). At best we can surmise that he knew how to summon lightning but not yet to unleash it himself.

Mjolnir is a lightning storage device (plus other abilities of course). In many instances prior to Ragnarok when Thor wanted to unleash powerful bolts of lightning, he'd charge up the hammer (he does it by lifting the hammer up and letting lightning course thru it) via a summoned bolt from the sky. At one point he even needed more than Mjolnir, using the Empire State Building (at least I think it was the ESB) as a second storage device in order to one shot multiple Leviathans during the battle of NY. This is how Thor "focused" his lightning powers before he learned to unleash it from within at Ragnarok.

It is not unreasonable to assume that some leftover lightning energy would be stored in Mjolnir ready to be unleashed when needed. When he fought Malekith, he was able to draw out lightning energy from Mjolnir when he used it to block some of Malekith's attacks and used it to ground slam lightning at Malekith without having to lift it up and summon a bolt from the sky.

When Hela broke the hammer, whatever stored energy that was in the hammer was unleashed. That is certainly a far better explanation than Hela having lightning powers she was never alluded to have nor ever demonstrated again.

This makes the most sense relative to his showings and story and is the most consistent with the evidence provided and needs no headcanon nor assumptions made.

Odin himself has spoken on the matter. Mjolnir isn't Thor's source of power

Saying that Mjolnir "stores" lightning is unproven. Odin said that the hammer was meant to "channel" and "help control" Thor's abilities, he never it was to "store" Thor's powers.

Okay, no one here is saying that the hammer wasn't broken. The hammer was shattered/crushed/destroyed, the matter being debated here is how.
Saying that the hammer was destroyed due to strength alone is unproven, again, we can't rebuke magic into the equation without proper evidence (which none of you have brought). The hammer could have been crushed with the assistance of magic is possible, again, knowing that the hammer is prone to magic and that Hela's magic is very powerful.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes, he placed an enchantment on the weapon... making it an enchanted weapon. In other words, it's a magical artifact. And it maintained that magical property even though Odin was not actively coursing magic through it.

Agree. What's your point?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Odin himself has spoken on the matter. [B] Mjolnir isn't Thor's source of power

Saying that Mjolnir "stores" lightning is unproven. Odin said that the hammer was meant to "channel" and "help control" Thor's abilities, he never it was to "store" Thor's powers.

Okay, no one here is saying that the hammer wasn't broken. The hammer was shattered/crushed/destroyed, the matter being debated here is how.
Saying that the hammer was destroyed due to strength alone is unproven, again, we can't rebuke magic into the equation without proper evidence (which none of you have brought). The hammer could being crushed with the assistance of magic is possible, again, knowing that the hammer is prone to magic and that Hela's magic is very powerful. [/B]

It's not the source, but Thor didn't know this until Ragnarok. At best his power would be to summon lightning from the sky and charge his hammer with it due to his limited knowledge of how his power worked at the time. If the lightning coursing thru Mjolnir came from him, don't you think he'd notice it at one point during his many many battles? What's your logic here?

I can provide timestamps of everything I said above. You are basing your logic off of your interpretation of one character comment that could have a different interpretations and when interpreted a certain way would also be consistent with on screen "feats" and story while needing no headcanon. While yours would need to be so inconsistent with story, the way he fights thru many movies and basic logic (how did he not notice that the lightning came from him before?). Seems a bit far fetched, don't you think?

I mean Odin never said Hela had lightning powers either but you seem very much willing to attribute lightning powers to her even though there is literally ZERO evidence before and after said moment that even implies this.

Of course it is proven, it's a fact. He literally does it during the battle of NY. He stores lightning into the ESB and unleashes it. He lifts his hammer, stores lighting and unleashes it and he does it almost every time he shoots a lightning attack prior to Ragnarok. You are ignoring so much on screen evidence by denying this.

You can "focus" something by storing it then unleashing it. Think a water gun. You store water inside and focus it into a steam of water rather than just splash it around.

He doesn't have to say it exactly how it works, as "feats" > statements. And his statement was vague and can be interpretted the way I just did.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
It's not the source, but Thor didn't know this until Ragnarok. At best his power would be to summon lightning from the sky and charge his hammer with it due to his limited knowledge of how his power worked at the time. If the lightning coursing thru Mjolnir came from him, don't you think he'd notice it at one point during his many many battles? What's your logic here?

I can provide timestamps of everything I said above. You are basing your logic off of your interpretation of one character comment that could have a different interpretations and when interpreted a certain way would also be consistent with on screen "feats" and story while needing no headcanon. While yours would need to be so inconsistent with story, the way he fights thru many movies and basic logic (how did he not notice that the lightning came from him before?). Seems a bit far fetched, don't you think?

I mean Odin never said Hela had lightning powers either but you seem very much willing to attribute lightning powers to her even though there is literally ZERO evidence before and after said moment that even implies this.

Of course it is proven, it's a fact. He literally does it during the battle of NY. He stores lightning into the ESB and unleashes it. He lifts his hammer, stores lighting and unleashes it and he does it almost every time he shoots a lightning attack prior to Ragnarok. You are ignoring so much on screen evidence by denying this.

You can "focus" something by storing it then unleashing it. Think a water gun. You store water inside and focus it into a steam of water rather than just splash it around.

He doesn't have to say it exactly how it works, as "feats" > statements. And his statement was vague and can be interpretted the way I just did.

The fact that he didn't notice doesn't prove that Mjolnir is a battery. Again, that's not proven.

Mjolnir producing lightning is product of Thor, and not otherwise. He not realizing this doesn't change that. Besides, we all know that Thor isn't the smartest character in the MCU (remember that time Etri told him that opening the star-gate would be suicide, and Thor couldn't grasp the difference between suicide and death? 😂 )

Yes, Mjonir can be charged. But in that particular scene, Thor never charged Mjolnir.

Odin's statement remains unchallenged. No feat has contradicted it.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The fact that he didn't notice doesn't prove that Mjolnir is a battery. Again, that's not proven.

Mjolnir producing lightning is product of Thor, and not otherwise. He not realizing this doesn't change that. Besides, we all know that Thor isn't the smartest character in the MCU (remember that time Etri told him that opening the star-gate would be suicide, and Thor couldn't grasp the difference between suicide and death? 😂 )

Yes, Mjonir can be charged. But in that particular scene, Thor never charged Mjolnir.

Odin's statement remains unchallenged. No feat has contradicted it.

In almost every fight where Thor uses Mjolnir for lightning, he raises it up, summons lightning from the sky and courses it thru Mjolnir. Almost every fight. The ESB instance carries it thru even further, actually showing him charging another object other than Mjolnir. This is indisputable proof and you have yet to address this. Even if we assume the lightning came from Thor, it does not disprove the fact that he still uses Mjolnir to store and focus lightning energy,

Of course him not realizing how powers work changes that. It doth verily. It means he's never used his powers that way before. He didn't know he could do it and since he didn't know it was within him, he didn't know how to do it. This changed with one simple realization (when Odin told him so). Kinda like Superman not knowing he could fly until he realized that he could.

I already showed instances where Thor used lightning thru Mjolnir without the need to charge it. It shows that Mjolnir can store lightning energy for Thor to unleash. And kinda makes sense as that would kinda limit Mjolnir indoors.

This is all 100% consistent with everything that has happened up to that point. And is certainly a FAR BETTER explanation than the lightning explosion coming from Hela somehow. At the end of the day, we look at best interpretation consistent with as much evidence as possible and you have yet to provide definitive contradiction to my logic and I can literally rain contradictions on yours.

Actually no. His words does not contradict anything since it has more than one interpretation.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
In almost every fight where Thor uses Mjolnir for lightning, he raises it up, summons lightning from the sky and courses it thru Mjolnir. Almost every fight. The ESB instance carries it thru even further, actually showing him charging another object other than Mjolnir. This is indisputable proof and you have yet to address this.

Of course him not realizing how powers work changes that. It doth verily. It means he's never used his powers that way before. He didn't know he could do it and since he didn't know it was within him, he didn't know how to do it. This changed with one simple realization (when Odin told him so). Kinda like Superman not knowing he could fly until he realized that he could.

I already showed instances where Thor used lightning thru Mjolnir without the need to charge it. It shows that Mjolnir can store lightning energy for Thor to unleash.

This is all 100% consistent with everything that has happened up to that point. And is certainly a FAR BETTER explanation than the lightning explosion coming from Hela somehow. At the end of the day, we look at best interpretation consistent with as much evidence as possible and you have yet to provide definitive contradiction to my logic and I can literally rain contradictions on yours.

Actually no. His words does not contradict anything since it has more than one interpretation.

Again, the scene never showed Thor charging Mjolnir.

And that's unproven. Am not saying that Mjolnir couldn't store it, just that there is no evidence to make it a fact.

And again, even if that's the case, Hela could have tampered with those energies/magic, and caused it to explode inside out, which would assist her strength.

Again, my whole point is, magic can't be rebuked for the scene