MVF BZ: Josh_Alexander vs Nibedicus. The Hela Mjolnir crush.

I have received 2/3 votes. A winner can [finally] be decided...

leonidas wrote on May 19th, 2019 03:51 PM:
yeesh, i thought we comic forum guys got into some tangled debates. lol

ok, there was a LOT of circles forming in those few posts, but i think the main ideas are pretty clear--josh wants the feat invalidated because he can't reconcile the feat as being a purely strength-accomplished feat, and nib is saying that in lieu of any other accompanying evidence, that it is what it's shown to be--a strength feat.

josh doesn't like it because he feels that hela never showed that level of strength during the rest of the movie and and so it makes no sense to view this as a strength feat, and nib thinks that is irrelevant because of the nature of the cinematic importance of the scene compared with later scenes. there was a lot of convoluted paths that were followed and refuted and i think both have valid and reasonable stances--NOT something i see often enough in a debate, so, well done. 👆

i guess i never really considered the feat before--i just sort of enjoyed watching it, and didn't bother to dissect it.

after reading through this, i find myself actually agreeing with josh's stance, but giving the win in the debate to NIBEDICUS. without any additional effects, it just seems pretty cut and dried. admittedly, there is a little ambiguity when she mentioned to thor that he had no idea what was possible. that MAY have meant she was using more than strength--or it may have meant she was simply addressing the fact that her strength is much greater than he could imagine. playing the opinion/justification/headcannon card can lead to many seemingly 'reasonable' stances. these stances however, are essentially indefensible OPINION though, much as josh's is. the feat may be seen as an outlier, but as nib said, that doesn't outright invalidate it. without a stronger source of contradictory evidence, i just don't think we can look past it as being exactly what it is--hela having a moment and crushing the hammer.

like i said, i find myself believing there was more involved than just strength too, josh. i just don't think you had enough proof that it was. nib, outstanding debate. really clear and well organized. good job by both.

Damborgson wrote on May 22nd, 2019 08:24 PM:
So I had to make sure exactly what was being argued a few times:

"Based on evidence, the Hela Mjolnir crush is a valid strength "feat". (y/n)"

And then I read over this a few times and here's what I got.

The argument to prove it's not a strength feat, is too steep. There's too much consideration that Alex had to have for the opposing argument to make me think it was an invalid strength feat. The point from Alex's saide seemed to be "It doesn't make sense for her to be able break Mjolnir and never be as impressive again, even empowered."

And Nib basically went with, "the simplest explanation is often the right one."

Taking that into account, Nib had a lot less to prove than Alex did. He had on screen evidence, without any signs of magic being involved.

And I think there is the problem. There really was no single way that could ever be proved as a non strength feat in its entirety.

And Alex man, you really said some things that just didn't help your case:

"Now I am fully awared of MVF rules and that there is no visual indication of magic being used to destroy Mjolnir"

- "In no moment am I claiming that there is no strength being applied to Mjolnir by Hela,"

And while I understand the "point" that it's not a strength feat in its entirety and therefore it can't be used as a feat to say Hela casually squeezes Superman's skull for example, the topic in question was whether it is a valid strength feat or not, so for Alexander to want it to be utterly disregarded is...just not going to happen.

Overall, Alex showed that he's a competent and well organized debater. But the point he was trying to prove was just too steep. And I have to go with with what is being debated, my personal feelings aside.

So NibBigDickus is the winner for me

Winner: Nibedicus

Despite the delays, it seems like the BZ was a success. Thanks for your participation judges, and sorry, the BZ took longer than expected.

Having said that, I want to congratulate my opponent Nibedicus on his victory. In the end, a debate must have a winner.

The BZ was a lot of fun and better than expected. This is a proof that KMC can have serious debates and move aside from just the usual trolling.

Let's hope more members can participate in this type of threads.

With that said, The Tribunal accepts the veredict. Have a nice day fellows

Can we post here now that this is over?

As I mentioned before, this was one of the few instances where I agreed with Josh. I never took Hela's Mjolnir Crush as a pure strength feat.

But since this has now been BZ'd and decided, I guess moving forward in these debates I will now consider that feat a pure strength feat.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Can we post here now that this is over?

As I mentioned before, this was one of the few instances where I agreed with Josh. I never took Hela's Mjolnir Crush as a pure strength feat.

But since this has now been BZ'd and decided, I guess moving forward in these debates I will now consider that feat a pure strength feat.

Honestly, I am looking forward to see how this will change the MCU landscape in this forum.

At least knowing that Hela has that amount of strength outside Asgard.

Lots of respect to Josh for the fun debate! Let’s do this again soon. Would like to say debates like this are really enjoyable. Judged mediums really pushes one to really put together one’s arguments.

Looking forward to the next BZ. 😄

Congratulations Nib

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Congratulations Nib

Thanks man! 🙂

Very well done all your points were fantastic. Albeit, I dont think this debate was needed but you clearly proved the point.

Sorry for the delay on my end. I will post my ruling anyway - not that it would have mattered.

But I would have ruled in favour of Nibedicus. I skipped over the other judges' rulings, to try and not be biased by them.

Ultimately, I was won over by the simple nature of the argument. There is no 'magic' visuals being shown, so there is no magic involved.

Any other inconsistencies in the movie (why doesn't Hela pinky flick random Asgardians across the breadth of Asgard etc) are really just that - inconsistencies. Which do not take away from the initial feat.

Swings and roundabouts, though. Hela is magical, so her strength can be said to be magical (after all, Cate Blanchett isn't exactly muscular lol). So...both can be said to have won.

An enjoyable debate, all in all.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sorry for the delay on my end. I will post my ruling anyway - not that it would have mattered.

But I would have ruled in favour of [b]Nibedicus. I skipped over the other judges' rulings, to try and not be biased by them.

Ultimately, I was won over by the simple nature of the argument. There is no 'magic' visuals being shown, so there is no magic involved.

Any other inconsistencies in the movie (why doesn't Hela pinky flick random Asgardians across the breadth of Asgard etc) are really just that - inconsistencies. Which do not take away from the initial feat.

Swings and roundabouts, though. Hela is magical, so her strength can be said to be magical (after all, Cate Blanchett isn't exactly muscular lol). So...both can be said to have won.

An enjoyable debate, all in all. [/B]

Better late than never 😉

Thanks for the time.

A unanimous decision 3-0

You got destroyed

😂

To be fair, I'm as sure I can be that magic was indeed involved.

Im glad this was concluded

The fact that this was concluded is an indicator of regulations that should be upheld by forum law. If two combatants partake in combat, there needs to be a clear winner by default.

Justice was served.

Was this before or after Quan put in his Sock Judges?

Originally posted by Flyattractor
[b]Was this before or after Quan put in his Sock Judges? [/B]

The decision was unanimous. Everyone already knew that Josh failed. Justice needed to be served.

Originally posted by Damborgson
To be fair, I'm as sure I can be that magic was indeed involved.

The problem is that Josh's argument would only work if a Mjolnir-weakening/damaging magic was involved when physical-amp magic would make more sense in a story/showing/consistency/evidence/character statement point of view. I offered him (or to someone, I can't remember tbh, but it was there for him to easily read) this alternative theory early on in one of our pre-BZ debates as a middle ground that also considers his (and everyone who had trouble accepting the "feat"😉 logic but he insisted on the former theory. Probably because a magical physical amp would still mean that it is still a strength "feat" (just an amped one).

His logic was too greedy and uncompromising tbh. Dunno why he'd stick to it so hard seeing as how flimsy his evidence was.

And there you have it, folks.

This is what truly being owned looks like. Poor Josh.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
The problem is that Josh's argument would only work if a Mjolnir-weakening/damaging magic was involved when physical-amp magic would make more sense in a story/showing/consistency/evidence/character statement point of view. I offered him (or to someone, I can't remember tbh, but it was there for him to easily read) this alternative theory early on in one of our pre-BZ debates as a middle ground that also considers his (and everyone who had trouble accepting the "feat"😉 logic but he insisted on the former theory. Probably because a magical physical amp would still mean that it is still a strength "feat" (just an amped one).

His logic was too greedy and uncompromising tbh. Dunno why he'd stick to it so hard seeing as how flimsy his evidence was.

Because he's ninny and he only cares about being a right even though he was wrong. Simple logic and common sense was all that was needed, its to bad it had to come to this.

Now he has to deal with the wide ranging impact he desperatly wanted to avoid.