The classic LT was probably the most powerful being in Marvel (not including the Beyonders). In the crossover that seems to be canon for both companies, the LT and Spectre were shown as peers. Mxy has destroyed a backed Spectre three different times then went on to wipe out and recreate DC.
Mxy wins. I really hate this character though, nothing in DC makes sense with him around.
Originally posted by zopzop
The classic LT was probably the most powerful being in Marvel (not including the Beyonders). In the crossover that seems to be canon for both companies, the LT and Spectre were shown as peers. Mxy has destroyed a backed Spectre three different times then went on to wipe out and recreate DC.Mxy wins. I really hate this character though, nothing in DC makes sense with him around.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Joker is low-key portrayed as one of the smartest characters in either company.Haters gonna hate.
So smart he dresses up like a clown... Which is exactly what you would say makes total sense right?
Comicbook writers can't write smart characters to save their lives and that's about all the credit I can give to your argument.
Originally posted by BentleyI only post naked, and yet..
So smart he dresses up like a clown... Which is exactly what you would say makes total sense right?Comicbook writers can't write smart characters to save their lives and that's about all the credit I can give to your argument.
Comic book writers either have the Jim Starlin syndrome, where everybody is too dumb and falls for Thanos rudimentary 'cleverness', or they go into "this substance/device/etc. is very potent, doesn't matter how he built it' plot points. It's hard to properly analyze intelligence in comics, except for where they 'stand' in relation to others, and Joker...well, he's pretty consistently shown as being able to outdo Batman/Lex [in continuity the two smartest chars in DC]. Don't hate the pale.
I first just want to say how thrilled I am that everyone is debating this seriously, and I'm also shocked and sorry that I have been missing this debate for so long. I've truly waited years for this moment, and apparently it's been here all along. As I type this wearing my custom Amalgam Comics hoodie, I can finally flex the one comic book topic for which I consider myself an actual authority: official Marvel/DC crossovers. These are the comics I obsessed over every millimeter of in middle/high school.
@Mr. Master, while I find your explanations extremely fun, fascinating, and compelling, and I'm not saying anything is totally indisputable, I feel that the "Brothers" being held in LT's hand fall much more heavily into the realm of the "unofficial crossover" (e.g. the Rutland Halloween Parade, which I'll get to later) than the official one.
For the first major clues, we need to look at the comics themselves. No! Not what's in the panels--I literally mean the fine print:
https://i.imgur.com/HxxkugI.png
Linked above is a picture of the copyright disclaimer in The Adventure's of X-Men #12. You will notice that they do not acknowledge that either or both of these "Brothers" are "jointly-held trademarks of DC Comics and Marvel Characters, Inc." This is very important because that is the specific language used any time Access or any Amalgam Character or likeness appear in a comic book including when Access appeared in GL #87 (which I promise to scan and show you as soon as I am back at my aunt's house where I keep it, as all online scans of the series seem to exclude that stuff, but they are online for all All Access/Unlimited Access books if you want to go look).
It's unfortunate that this was the last issue of Adventures of X-men because it deprives us of another big non-panel clue: the Fan Letter Page. At DC, back in the 90s at least, they published the fan letters that corresponded with the issue from 5 months prior. So my obsessed self also went out and bought GL #92, for further clarity from Marz about Access's pop-in and what's to come, and I was not disappointed (again I'll scan and post later this week because none of that seems to be online either).
Marz said in a fan response that Access would also be popping up "in a Marvel book," and since Access said he was looking for "the guy on the surfboard," I went and bought all the SS comics within that 10-month period, and thoroughly enjoyed reading them, but alas no Access there. (Then Unlimited Access came out, which was published by Marvel, so he technically wasn't wrong, just misleading).
ANYWAY, what I'm getting at here is that the handbook writers, whom you hold in such high esteem, themselves, acknowledge that the DC and Marvel multiverses (or "megaverses" or whatever) are bound by the limits of their companies or "comic line." So in order for a character, place, or concept to actually impact both realities, both companies must be involved officially.
I love that you have pointed out that Carlin, who was at DC at the time, was thanked in the issue, but the fact that he was involved in some kind writing or A&R capacity, and DC STILL didn't want to claim the Brothers as those "jointly-held trademarks" kind of furthers this point, even if the narrator acknowledged his "hooded, spectral ally."
Now I'll circle back to my Rutland Halloween Parade example. In 1972 Englehart, Conway, & Wein all con-conspired to have Beast, the Justice League, Thor (and the writers themselves) all at the same place at the same time. Writers/editors from both companies worked together in an unofficial capacity to troll/give the fans easter eggs/however you want to look at it, but it can't be considered "canon" that they were all there together, even in the crossover sense of "canon," as it was not sanctioned by the companies themselves. Other examples include Hulk knocking out "Doomsday," GL running into "Wong," Namor & Aquaman fighting the same slime monster, "Barry Allen/Buried Alien" poppin up in Quasar after Crisis, or the dozens of times "Clark Kent" has popped up in Marvel comics.
Now onto the power comparison. Yes, in DCvM #4 Spectre & LT were momentarily successful in keeping the Brothers from fighting each other by Amalgamating them/their universes, but I think you would agree that that in and of itself does not prove much as far as a power level comparison goes. It's "clearly" (I put "clearly" in quotes because the story itself is anything but lol) stated at the beginning of DCvM 4 that this was a last ditch effort to keep one universe from destroying another (based on fan-voted fights mind you) by doing something so weird and unexpected the Brothers had no way of anticipating it during their battle with each other.
LT and Spectre had no idea how long they could hold Amalgam together, and were working with Morty to find another solution as soon as possible, before the Brothers could break free from their cosmic-level Black Panther-Silver Surfer armbar. Once Access brought Cap & Bats (with their hidden shards of the original universes) back to Morty, they ALL (LT, Spectre, Morty, Access, and the shards) worked together to safely de-Amalgamate the universes, so Access could use psychology and show the Brothers how they could co-exist cuz of how dope Bats and Cap are.
Finally, the whole concept of "crossover canon" has been f*cked up since JLA/Avengers. There was a good 5-year run of all the cosmic Marvel/DC crossovers at least mentioning "Access," ending with Superman/F4 in '99. Then all of a sudden Krona could just curb-stomp entire universes in both of the companies' multiverses, with no mention of Access, Amalgam, or anything, and yet, the "cosmic egg" that Flash & Hawkeye trapped Krona in at the end of that story ends up in DC's Trinity series. Go figure.
Originally posted by Galan007
The Kang fan is trying to say that Joker is inept, lol?Disgusting.
The Joker is not inept, he's just a terribly written character with losely defined traits that are deformed to fit whichever plot he's in. He's a posterboy and no stone gets unturned in order to make him look like legimate threat. But we all know the only thing keeping him alive is plot and his brand power.
Let me try something...
Batman's just a terribly written character with losely defined traits that are deformed to fit whichever plot he's in. He's a posterboy and no stone gets unturned in order to make him look like legimate threat. But we all know the only thing keeping him alive is plot and his brand power.
😄
At least I'm consistent with my reason to hate these chumps awesr
Batman is leaps and bounds a better character than Joker though, he has motivations, his skills are somewhat explained through his extensive training and he has lot's of personal flaws that aren't just explained away by "he's crazy and now he's a different kind of crazy". Also his relationships with other characters also count, Joker makes no sense whenever he interacts with anyone
