Revan vs Darth Nihilus - Revisited

I have created this thread to see people’s placement of this matchup and to discuss some common beliefs that I have seen going around. This thread is not made to determine a winner but rather to discuss those beliefs.

Belief 1: Revan will resist Nihilus’s drain

As I am aware, this belief comes from Revan resisting the Starforge and not being consumed by Malachor.

Let’s start with Malachor V. A quote describing what happened to Revan is in place:

The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side.

-Star Wars Chronicles of the Old Republic

Revan being able to feed on the power of the dark side of Malachor instead of letting it consume him, which he was barely able to achieve, has got nothing to do with him being able to resist Nihilus’s drain. How do we know? The evidence comes from Kreia’s showings. Consider:

Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. She is lost to the Jedi, spending the next several years on Malachor V, learning its secrets, and eventually becoming The master of the Sith academy there.

- Chronicles of the Old Republic

Unlike Revan who ‘resisted’ Malachor V by not being consumed by the power, it is clearly stated that Kreia was completely consumed by that dark side (which Revan resisted) and thus means that Kreia failed in resisting. Despite this, we don’t see Kreia’s Force connection being devoured or Kreia’s life energies being drained upon or anything even remotely similar to what Nihilus’s Force drain does. We simply see Kreia being corrupted to the dark side. How would Nihilus’s force drain that devours Force connections be similar to Malachor V’s ‘attack’? We have seen what failing to resist to Malachor does and we have seen what failing to resist Nihilus’s Force drain attack does. Failing to resist to Nihilus leads to death and failing to resist Malachor corrupts to the dark side, as evidenced by Kreia. This is even further supported by when Revan attempts to use Malachor to seduce light side Jedi to the dark side. Consider:

Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, Darth Revan has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings.

Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith. He had discovered a weapon that he could use against the Mandalorians, and a weapon by which he could convert more Jedi to his cause.

-Star Wars Chronicles of the Old Republic

"There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface - drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."

- Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2

If Malachor would devour Force connections of people who are not able to resist it, then how would Revan use that ‘weapon’/planet to seduce others to his cause? In fact, how did the Mandalorians even survive this if Malachor was a Force draining planet? It is clear then that Malachor V is simply a dark side nexus which corrupts users to the dark side, which also gets fueled by death/war. It does not devour people’s Force connections. If it did then how did Kreia not die despite failing to resist Malachor? How were the Mandalorians even able to survive? How was Revan going to seduce the Jedi to his cause? Thus, it is clear that Malachor is nothing like Nihilus’s Force drain and ,therefore ,Revan being able to resist Malachor has absolutely nothing to do with being able to resist Nihilus’s Force drain. I believe that Revan was already immersed in the dark side before going to Malachor V anyways so I don’t get what he is ‘resisting’.

Next is the Star Forge. To keep things short, the Star Forge does not devour people’s Force connections and is not relevant to Nihilus’s Force Drain. Consider:

"There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power."

¯Bastila Shan Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2

"In your terminology, the Star Forge is a tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself. The Builders thought they were strong enough to control this effect, but they were wrong. They became victims of their own creation, and eventually their hatred turned them against each other. Civil war destroyed the Infinite Empire - a lesson to remember. Only one who is immensely strong in mind can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering a similar fate."

-Rakata Computer, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic

"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us!

-Darth Malak, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic

Revan being able to harness the Star Forge and avoid suffering a similar fate to the Builders has got nothing to do with avoiding Force connections being devoured. It simply means that one has to be powerful to avoid being dominated by the Star Forge. The Star Forge does not devour a user’s Force connections. It feeds on the dark side within people and turns them against each other as evidenced by the Builders. The Star Forge has life drained users that have tried to control it (but weren’t powerful enough to do so). This, however, is not the same as Nihilus’s Force Drain which feeds on Force connections and not life energies. The Star Forge life drain is thus different than Nihilus’s Force drain. Therefore, Revan being able to control the Forge without being life drained, due to his power, will not be relevant when resisting Nihilus’s type of drain; they are irrelevant.

Belief 2: Revan is canonically superior to Nihilus

This comes from the following:

It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him: Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met.

-Star Wars:The Old Republic:Revan

Before we start fighting about what ‘Command of the Force’ meant, let’s assume it meant raw Force power and let me enlighten you on a different perspective. Meetra knew Revan very well as she fought with him for years during the Mandalorian wars whilst she only knew Nihilus for seconds and when he was severely weakened twice. This means she is not an accurate source to depict Nihilus’s true power relative to Revan as she has known one for years while the other for a few seconds in a severely weakened state.

Secondly,the reality of the quote is that it uses ‘Command of the Force’ which does not always translate to raw Force power. Command translates to knowledge/mastery/grip/control and not raw Power (look the word up if you need to).Whilst I am aware that some writers might have used that phrase to mean raw Force power, the reality of the situation is that its not definitive what the phrase was meant to portray. It could have been used by the writer to mean power or it could have been used to mean mastery/knowledge. Since we cannot definitively always know the phrase’s purpose, we cannot always assume it’s meant to portray raw Force power and as such we have to go back and look at the evidence at hand. The quote was made before Revan was freed and as such was talking about Mandalorian wars Revan (as this was the last time Meetra saw him). MW Revan feats are vastly inferior to Nihilus (won’t go into detail to avoid making this thread too long but would gladly go into it if need be). As such, based on the evidence at hand, it is clear that the quote was simply referring to mastery/control/knowledge and not Force power as Nihilus is vastly more powerful than MW Revan based on the evidence we have. As such, Revan was not stated to be canonically superior to Nihilus whatsoever, despite the quote not even being an accurate portrayal of Nihilus’s power anyways as I discussed earlier.

Finally, the last point I want to make (I will keep it short) is one that I have rarely ever seen people mention when it comes to Nihilus. Nihilus becomes stronger the more powerful his opponent is in the Force. Consider the following:

These Sith we face...... They draw upon the connections in the Force, and devour it. That is why they are drawn to Jedi, why it is easy for them to find where they gather - because it is like the smell of blood to them. And they can draw upon the Jedi's own strength to kill them."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force . . . Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger.They feed, and grow stronger, when they are near Force Sensitives. The stronger their prey is in the Force, the deadlier they become."

-Kreia,Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2

tl;dr

Now, I dunno if Revan can protect himself from Nihilus's drain. I expect he could. He had an unfathomable amount of Sith knowledge so it wouldn't surprise me if he knew Ulic's technique. However, Malachor V is like Nihilus and his drain, It's repeatedly mentioned throughout the game that Malachor V is a wound in the Force just like the Exile (and Nihilus).

"It (Force drain) is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." - Kreia

So where did Nihilus, Kreia, the Exile, the many Sith Assassins experience it? Malachor. They experienced it on Malachor.

@ares834

Malachor V being a wound in the Force has nothing to do with Nihilus's Force Drain as it doesn't mean it would devour people of their Force connections. Meetra was a wound in the Force and she didn't devour the Force connections of others. Also if Malachor was Force draining, then how did Kreia survive it despite failing to resist Malachor? Nathema was also a wound in the Force and it didn't devour Force connections. Devouring Force connections is a technique. The similarity is that both Nihilus and Malachor V are wounds in the Force and feed on death. Malachor V does not devour Force connections, however.
In either case, the argument presented above was specifically refering to Revan and as such is about Malachor before being hit by the shadow generators and becoming a 'wound' in the force. Revan was on and resisted Malachor before it became a wound in the force.(while Kreia being consumed by Malachor was after this btw).

Ulic's technique only allowed him to counter the effects of the Dark Reaper for a short period of time and he had to stay at a certain distance away. If he got anywhere too close he would instantly die. The Dark Reaper could drain moons but Nihilus was able to drain planets giving. As such, Nihilus's Force drain is even more powerful than the Reaper.

The Exile does use Nihilus's technique. It's literally the way she levels up. She is feeding on the death she causes. Anyway, Malachor, the Exile, Nihilus they are all meant to echo one another. Malachor may not go as far as to kill people but it is what allows all these Sith to experience drain and therefore learn it.

As for the Dark Reaper. It's a question of scale not necessarily strength. Nihilus may be able to use his power on a greater scale but it doesn't necessitate that it is any harder to defend against.

Hmm. This is a thought-provoking piece.

I admit that resisting Force Drain and its derivatives is far from easy, and living beings are in mortal danger while exposed to the most powerful expressions.

The Malachor V part is beautifully addressed, credit where due.

The Star Forge had the capability to siphon life energy of individuals attempting to access its resources (or worse). This might be the reason why Darth Revan limited his exposure to Star Forge while accessing its resources. Although, Darth Malak felt that Darth Revan was being foolish in this case, but I would say that Darth Revan knew better.

Darth Malak also acquired a similar ability from his exposure to Star Forge if I am not mistaken, but he was unable to utilize his technique in offensive capacity while confronting redeemed Revan. This might be due to Darth Malak not having much time to advance his powers further since Bastila Shan cautioned redeemed Revan that this would happen.

Users of Force Drain and its derivatives become stronger while confronting a relatively stronger opponent because due to the 'siphon life energy' part. However, this does not suggest that the opponent is literally immobilized and cannot counter them. Otherwise, Revan's elite Sith Assassins would have been unstoppable which wasn't the case.

NATHEMA was more like a VOID in the Force (even worse than a Wound in the Force). Even the most powerful Jedi (and Sith) could not stay there for long because they would fall apart otherwise.

Originally posted by ares834
The Exile does use Nihilus's technique. It's literally the way she levels up. She is feeding on the death she causes. Anyway, Malachor, the Exile, Nihilus they are all meant to echo one another. Malachor may not go as far as to kill people but it is what allows all these Sith to experience drain and therefore learn it.

As for the Dark Reaper. It's a question of scale not necessarily strength. Nihilus may be able to use his power on a greater scale but it doesn't necessitate that it is any harder to defend against.

Although, in the case of Dark Reaper and Darth Nihilus, it is a question of both scale and strength IMHO. These two took the application to whole another level in comparison to others. Dark Reaper was an arcane superweapon whereas Darth Nihilus's condition afforded him unprecedented power in this domain.

Originally posted by ares834
The Exile does use Nihilus's technique. It's literally the way she levels up. She is feeding on the death she causes. Anyway, Malachor, the Exile, Nihilus they are all meant to echo one another. Malachor may not go as far as to kill people but it is what allows all these Sith to experience drain and therefore learn it.

As for the Dark Reaper. It's a question of scale not necessarily strength. Nihilus may be able to use his power on a greater scale but it doesn't necessitate that it is any harder to defend against.

The Exile is not using Nihilus's technique. She does not devour Force connections. She feeds on the deaths she causes and that's what makes her grow stronger. Nihilus's technique devours Force connections and then feeds on the death it causes. Nihilus uses the 'devour Force connection' (his draining technique) to cause death while Meetra uses her lightsaber or any other means. She doesn't cause death by devouring connections. This technique has to be taught to users like how Kreia had taught Nihilus (only those who experience a wound can gain this though).

Malachor did not cause these 'Stih to experience drain and therefore learn it'. Malachor is just the planet that became a wound and it's this wound that lead to the hunger which allows these users like Nihilus to devour Force connections.

The greater the scale, the more powerful one has to be in that ability.

I disagree. It's all the same technique with a difference in degree. It's very sloppy writing if they are different techniques but are virtually identical in every way. Malchor, the Exile, Nihilus. They are all connected. Nihilus represents what the Exile could become if she is not careful and lets her power consume her.

Originally posted by ares834
I disagree. It's all the same technique with a difference in degree. It's very sloppy writing if they are different techniques but are virtually identical in every way. Malchor, the Exile, Nihilus. They are all connected. Nihilus represents what the Exile could become if she is not careful and lets her power consume her.

Meetra is not using a 'technique' to feed on those deaths. She is feeding on them subconsciously while Nihilus is consciously feeding on deaths through his Force Drain. Nihilus causes these deaths by his Force drain [Technique] while Meetra through any normal means of killing. Yes, they both feed on death but She isn't causing those deaths through Nihilus's technique of Force Drain. She may have been able to use this technique had she been trained and taught.

Yes, Nihilus,Meetra and Malachor all feed on death. Feeding on death is one thing, and causing the death itself through Nihilus's Force Drain is another. Neither Malachor or Meetra use Nihilus's Force Drain(As evidenced in the original points I made in this thread). They just feed on death but the difference is how that death is caused (with Nihilus using Force Drain to kill then feed on death caused by the drain). Force drain is simply the method/technique that Nihilus uses to cause the death on which to feed on.

Nope. It's all the same power.

"It (Force drain) is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes."

Notice Kreia does not separate the feeding upon death from the draining. It's all the same.

^^^

But since Meetra Surik was a Jedi, was she actively incorporating Force Drain in her exploits much like Darth Nihilus? Or she did so unwittingly? This is the point of contention.

That she could feed on the deaths caused by her hand is not in dispute. This might be an artifact of her condition (i.e. Wound in the Force) until she healed.

Actually, she very clearly does. She says that Force drain is a technique that severs connections and feeds on the death it causes. Clearly, it's the Force drain causing those deaths and then feeding on that death, which is exactly what I explained earlier. Meetra never devours Force connections. She hasn't even learnt that technique.

Also if Malachor V has the 'same power' as Nihilus and Force Drains, then how did Kreia's Force connection not get devoured? How was she able to survive Malachor despite not being able to resist it? As a matter of fact, how did the Mandalorians even survive Malachor V? It is very clear that Malachor V does not Force drain. It simply feeds on death regardless of what causes that death. Nihilus himself causes that death.

Originally posted by lDarth Nihilusl
Actually, she very clearly does. She says that Force drain is a technique that severs connections and feeds on the death [B]it causes. Clearly, it's the Force drain causing those deaths and then feeding on that death, which is exactly what I explained earlier. Meetra never devours Force connections. She hasn't even learnt that technique. [/B]

What are you trying to say here? It was this technique (it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes) that Nihilus used to destroy Katarr. Kreia says that line in response to the Exile's question about how Nihilus destroyed Katarr. If you wanna argue that Nihilus's feeding upon force connections is different, fine. I don't care even if I disagree. But that's not his uber-tecnhque that he used to destroy Katarr.

Now if instead you are saying that Kreia is saying that he uses force drain to kill and then uses a different technique to feed on the death it causes, that's flat out wrong. This technique both kills and feeds upon death it causes as is made clear in Kreia's quote.

Also if Malachor V has the 'same power' as Nihilus and Force Drains, then how did Kreia's Force connection not get devoured? How was she able to survive Malachor despite not being able to resist it? As a matter of fact, how did the Mandalorians even survive Malachor V? It is very clear that Malachor V does not Force drain. It simply feeds on death regardless of what causes that death. Nihilus himself causes that death.

Difference of degree. The Sith Assassins aren't going around killing people with their drain either.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

But since Meetra Surik was a Jedi, was she actively incorporating Force Drain in her exploits much like Darth Nihilus? Or she did so unwittingly? This is the point of contention.

That she could feed on the deaths caused by her hand is not in dispute. This might be an artifact of her condition (i.e. Wound in the Force) until she healed.

She does it instinctively of course. She is unaware she is even doing it until the Jedi Council mention it near the end of the game.

@ares834

What you are failing to understand is that there is no 'technique' being used when they feed on death. When death happens, they feed on that death regardless of what caused that death. Nihilus's drain causes the death and then feeds on that death instinctively. The technique itself causes the death , it doesn't feed on the death. It's Nihilus that feeds on the death. The technique allows him to feed on the death because it is causing that death.

'Difference of degree.' Are you saying that Malachor V's 'Force Drain' isn't even strong enough to kill basic non-force sensitive Mandalorians? Then why would Revan resisting this supposed 'Force Drain' even mean anything if anyone could resist it?

Also the Sith Assassins are killing Jedi with this technique to the point that the Jedi were hunted by them and were very close to extinction.

Are you also claiming that Meetra is devouring people's Force connections instinctively?

I did not say Revan could resist force drain nor used Malachor V as an example as such. I agree that him being able to resist Malachor does not mean he could resist Nihilus's drain.

And there is nothing to suggest the Sith Assassins kill with the technique only that they use it to empower themselves.

Originally posted by ares834
I did not say Revan could resist force drain nor used Malachor V as an example as such. I agree that him being able to resist Malachor does not mean he could resist Nihilus's drain.

And there is nothing to suggest the Sith Assassins kill with the technique only that they use it to empower themselves.

"During the Jedi Civil War, many Jedi fell at the hands of Sith assassins, using techniques in the Force the Jedi could not defend against."

-Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

Regarding the Star Forge blunting one's connection to the Force: IIRC from the Dawn of the Jedi comics, Predor Skal'Nas mentions that the Rakata's connection to the Force is beginning to diminish as far back as 25000 BBY. I don't think the Star Forge is mentioned directly but that(or similar technology, based on the same principle) is the obvious reason.

Regarding Malachor's corruption: going strictly from the games, no one resisted Malachor save the Exile, and that's only because she cut herself off from the Force. That's what makes her special, it's the premise of her whole character. I think secondary source material that contradicts this should be discounted.

It seems silly to say that Revan "resisted" Malachor and Kreia did not. Their journey is basically identical. I don't see how Revan "resisted". It's true, he didn't become a Sunday morning cartoon villain, but neither did Kreia.
They both fell to the Dark side because they were ready to go. They were disillusioned with the Jedi. Malachor's energies were just part of the reason, the other part was that both were ultra curious people and they delved deeply into the Sith lore and teachings that they found in the Trayus academy.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Regarding the Star Forge blunting one's connection to the Force: IIRC from the Dawn of the Jedi comics, Predor Skal'Nas mentions that the Rakata's connection to the Force is beginning to diminish as far back as 25000 BBY. I don't think the Star Forge is mentioned directly but that(or similar technology, based on the same principle) is the obvious reason.

Regarding Malachor's corruption: going strictly from the games, no one resisted Malachor save the Exile, and that's only because she cut herself off from the Force. That's what makes her special, it's the premise of her whole character. I think secondary source material that contradicts this should be discounted.

It seems silly to say that Revan "resisted" Malachor and Kreia did not. Their journey is basically identical. I don't see how Revan "resisted". It's true, he didn't become a Sunday morning cartoon villain, but neither did Kreia.
They both fell to the Dark side because they were ready to go. They were disillusioned with the Jedi. Malachor's energies were just part of the reason, the other part was that both were ultra curious people and they delved deeply into the Sith lore and teachings that they found in the Trayus academy.

I completely agree with you regarding the Malachor part. To me, Revan didn't really resist anything on Malachor V; he was already on the dark side by then. In either case, its completely irrelevant to being able to resist Nihilus's drain, as many people have tried to argue before.

As for the Star Forge, I would actually be interested in knowing about that.I think I may have heard something like that before in game. Do you happen to have the quotes for those?