Vader vs Luke

No... there’s a difference. Just because someone uses the dark side doesn’t mean they’re always full rage mode. We’ve seen it when Vader ragdolls Sidious in the comics and after Luke hits his shoulder in their ESB duel. Or when Sidious kills Savage and Maul goes rage mode and lands a kick on Sidious.

Unless canon has given us a reason to believe otherwise for that specific fight, pretty much everything we know tells us that Vader would not have been at his peak for pretty much that entire film.

Remember Palpatine senses conflict in Vader Before Luke is brought to the Death Star.

The extent to which Vader's conflict hindered his abilities is the question.

As mentioned, I don't think the intent was for him to be significantly gimped at all.

Given how much it gimped him on Mustafa I find it difficult to believe it had no effect on him in Jedi.

The intention I believe was to parallel the events of ROTS and ROTJ, but with the correct side coming out on top in Jedi.

Anakin was gimped by overconfidence when he fought Kenobi in RotS. That wasn't the case in RotJ.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anakin was gimped by overconfidence when he fought Kenobi in RotS. That wasn't the case in RotJ.

That's what got him chopped up for sure. But doubt that played a part in hindering his abilities for the entire fight.

That's what hindered him against Kenobi. I thought that's what you were referring to..?

Was referring to him being conflicted against Kenobi.

Thats why I figured Kenobi was able to match him in a Force push contest. Doubt the force push thing was down to Anakin being overconfident.

Whether it was overconfidence or pure conflict, Anakin's abilities were definitely gimped when he fought Kenobi.

But again: there's no way to know how much Vader's conflict in RotJ was bogging him down(if at all.) I don't think ABC logic necessarily works here, because all emotional conflict is not created equal.

Like I said earlier, Vader's initial conflict was essentially: "Should I bring my son before Palpatine and try to turn him toward the dark side, or should I not..?" However, he ultimately did bring Luke to Palpatine, did defend Palpatine from Luke's strike, and did try and goad him towards to dark side. So while said conflict may have been present on some deep-down level, it was still initially overcome by his Vader/dark side persona.

Aside from that, I can't recall any canon sources off-hand stating that Vader's abilities were being significantly inhibited as a result of that the conflict he was experiencing. That's why I personally don't think the intent was for Vader to be gimped down to Luke's level, but rather, for Luke's own power to have simply grown to the point where he was capable of matching his father. /shrug

I mean its pretty much established at this point that mind sets effect fights in a big way.

And Luke clearly states he senses the conflict in Vader during the fight. So would only be logical to assume that hindered Vaders connection to the dark side.

So I think its a bit of a stretch to just ignore that had any impact.

Also I dont get the argument that he took Luke to the Emperor, and defended him. Given he was conflicted (as per Luke), but not 100% turned back yet. If he didnt take Luke to Palps or let him Luke kill the Emperor (which was likely a ruse anyway given we know Palps can defend himself), then that would mean he would already have chosen Lukes side.

Luke says to Vader during their fight, “your thoughts betray you father. I feel the good in you, the conflict.” So I don’t think he overcame his conflict lol.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I mean its pretty much established at this point that mind sets effect fights in a big way.

And Luke clearly states he senses the conflict in Vader during the fight. So would only be logical to assume that hindered Vaders connection to the dark side.

So I think its a bit of a stretch to just ignore that had any impact.

Also I dont get the argument that he took Luke to the Emperor, and defended him. Given he was conflicted (as per Luke), but not 100% turned back yet. If he didnt take Luke to Palps or let him Luke kill the Emperor (which was likely a ruse anyway given we know Palps can defend himself), then that would mean he would already have chosen Lukes side.

That said, I'm not saying Vader's conflict didn't inhibit his abilities to *some* extent. I just don't think he was intended to have been significantly affected by it.

Vader was initially still trying to turn Luke towards the dark side, after all. He was still evil, and was still subservient to Palpatine... Luke was just able to sense the flickering light within him, and therefore knew that he was not beyond redemption. Does that mean Vader was gimped in the same way that, say, Kylo was after he killed Han? Not imo. /shrug

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Luke says to Vader during their fight, “your thoughts betray you father. I feel the good in you, the conflict.” So I don’t think he overcame his conflict lol.

You said that he overcame his conflict and that it may have only been present on some deep down level. Doesn’t seem deep down if Luke sensed it.

I didn't mean that Vader overcame the conflict to the point where it no longer existed. He overcame it by continuing to embrace the dark side predominately(which is why he brought Luke before Palpatine and tried to turn him toward the dark side.) Luke sensed the conflict, sure, but it was still buried very deep within Vader.

That's what I was getting at. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by Galan007
Luke sensed the conflict, sure, but it was still buried very deep within Vader.

I dont think it was buried as deep as you believe.

Because remember Lukes exact words - Your THOUGHTS Betray you Father-

So Vader was actively having those thoughts. Means it was more than on a sub-conscious level.

As for being gimped I cant say to what extent but Luke continues - I feel the GOOD in you... The Conflict-

So this wasnt Vader at the height of his dark side evil like he was in Rebels (per Pablo).

Right, but then Vader goes on to throw a little dun moch back at Luke to try and goad him towards the dark side(which actually worked... if only briefly.) During most of that fight Vader was trying to turn Luke towards the dark side, and Luke was trying to turn Vader to the light side.

But yeah, I never contested if Vader was conflicted(he was to some extent), but I still think it was buried very deep, and didn't really inhibit his abilities significantly. Luke was just able to sense it, and therefore knew that Vader wasn't beyond redemption.

But I do agree that Rebels/ANH was the peak of Vader's 'evilness'.

In The Force Awakens Novelization it was clearly said by Snoke that Vader succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment.

He had a huge conflict in him, so big that he killed Palpatine quickly after their fight. His conflict was growing and it was at peak in the fight against Luke in ROTJ. You don't kill someone just like that in a moment. It was slowly tearing him inside and it was at its peak at the end of ROTJ.

I notice everyone is going on and on about Vader's internal conflict, which hasn't been confirmed to truly hinder him in any meaningful way outside of fan speculation.

Yet almost nobody has brought up the fact that Luke was actively, deliberately holding himself back for much of the fight? If we're going to talk about context, it's worth discussing both sides of it. Luke throughout the whole movie constantly reiterated that he couldn't bring himself to kill his own father. During the battle itself, he twice attempts to disengage from Vader and deactivates his lightsaber. He repeatedly "lowers his defenses," as Vader put it. If either character is actively hindered by their internal conflict over this struggle, it's clearly Luke. Just because he was ultimately the victor due to giving into his anger doesn't mean that Luke wasn't also very, very conflicted about the battle.

With that said, why do people act like Vader's internal conflict has a larger bearing on who is truly stronger than Luke's internal conflict? Luke still fought as Vader's equal for a good chunk of the fight after deliberately restraining himself and turning off his anger, to the point that Vader literally exhausted himself against Luke's defenses. And Luke, while conflicted and holding himself back, overpowered Vader in a lightsaber bind as well, just before leaping toward the catwalks above.

Why shouldn't the same standards you're applying to Vader apply to Luke for the majority of this duel as well (prior to Luke's major rage amp at the end)?

Everytime Luke gets an edge over Vader he is using the dark side. I doubt Luke was holding back and using the dark side at the same time. It's just his rage dying down after he deals a blow to Vader.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Mustafa