!!!Herald Tourney!!! DarkSaint85 vs. Supermutant
CHARACTERS:
[list][*]DarkSaint85: John Stewart and Madison Jeffries (BOX IV)[/list][list][*]Supermutant: Stardust and The Atom[/list]
STIPS:
[list][*]Three posts (1 opener, 1 rebuttal, and 1 final.)[/list][list][*]Fight takes place on an indestructible Earth.[/list][list][*]Prep-time is limited solely to creating shields.[/list][list][*]Starting distance is 0.5km.[/list][list][*]No BFR.[/list][list][*]Judges tbd.[/list]
Supermutant's OP:
Judges, you can go ahead and vote for me now, because it only gets worse for my opponent from here.
DarkSaint with a team of GL John and Box IV is an extremely formidable adversary, but just a bit shortsighted. Which will be his undoing, therefore I like to call this little operation, thinking outside the Box.
Prep shields raised by Stardust before match.
https://imgur.com/6FIVuX9
Around him and Atom, notice the acceleration of the shield he puts around the Thing. Ben was quickly being forced to the sun, before the Silver Surfer convinced Stardust to bring him back.
https://imgur.com/WknhIZx
https://imgur.com/5bZuPss
The starting distance of 0.5 km favors me and is extremely little ground to cover with ftl speed. Soon as the match starts Atom and Stardust go subatomic. Too small to be seen, tracked, heard, or stopped in any way. Stardust flies inside BoxIV and opens up a black hole. The Atom enters John and gives him a stroke, aneurysm, brain damage, or whatever is needed to ko him, immediately breaking his concentration in the process..
Stardust has faster than light travel speed.
https://imgur.com/lJu2dmq
Black hole creation, he is a bad guy after all. Whatever Box is doing, he cannot reverse being instantly ripped apart from the inside by a black hole.
https://imgur.com/MefoiAJ
Once the match starts, the Atom is almost immediately inside John. Then he inflicts massive pain, hindering the mental focus needed to use his ring.
https://imgur.com/GMD1Yk4
https://i.imgur.com/0bm7AGZ.jpg
https://imgur.com/UgdgB2T
https://imgur.com/ndYWi0h
Atom can rearrange synapses causing a loss of motor functions.
https://imgur.com/zPIj7hu
The Atom most certainly can pop heads off by making them tiny and causing them to explode.
https://imgur.com/FzLpuzx
https://imgur.com/L10pImc
Not only are Green Lanterns very vulnerable to internal attacks, but also to attacks that disrupt their concentration. The Atoms combine both of these types of attacks into one.
John suffered from internal attacks from the Void Hound eventually being completely overtaken by it. Krona ended up separating John from the Void Hound, but John could not stop this internal attack with his own power.
https://imgur.com/1aSRyXm
https://imgur.com/6ccJMwO
https://imgur.com/N57khXC
Poison Ivy quickly incapacitated John from an internal attack. He doesn’t have a defense to the Atom taking him out from the inside of his body.
https://imgur.com/oUyw4Ck
https://imgur.com/QBAGn8z
Even GL Hal was unable to even use his ring or even stand up from an internal attack that messed with his brain signals.
https://imgur.com/j80q7da
https://imgur.com/jmAtu3s
Guy Gardner had no idea or personal defense to the sentient bio-virus and Sinestro Corps member Despostellis attempt to kill him slowly from inside his own body. Also notice how GL John could do nothing to help Guy beside taking him to get medical treatment. Despostellis got through Guy’s shield/aura undetected until Guy started getting sick.
https://imgur.com/SaBFYTi
https://imgur.com/VYI8Zo3
https://imgur.com/ZORAskw
https://imgur.com/0LdvorF
Concentration is very important for John Stewart to be effective, even when using the very powerful ultraviolet ring.
https://imgur.com/rYTYYdJ
Or just regular GL John and other Green Lanterns.
https://imgur.com/8RQJsiX
https://imgur.com/AwtkDwc
The ring can even be taken from GL Hal with just a momentary lapse of concentration.
https://imgur.com/NHWI49J
https://imgur.com/9LG2bSO
Dark Supergirl did similar to GL John and used the ring against him. Needless to state that John will not be able to concentrate with the Atom dancing on his brain and tearing him up inside his body.
https://imgur.com/Y1dtaWr
https://imgur.com/YtsYfHX
Pain keeps willpower off-balance for even very powerful lanterns, and the Atom is jumping around in John’s skull, body and growing.
https://imgur.com/Ij0Jnv6
This is a really bad matchup for Box as Ray Palmer’s costume is made from a white dwarf star. And Stardust is of course Ethereal plus power cosmic so Box cannot directly affect either of my team, even if he was given the chance.
https://imgur.com/RjKVt1u
https://imgur.com/RA5lElQ
https://imgur.com/gkxKdqo
The great thing for me is that Ray Palmer has successfully used a Green Lantern ring before on multiple occasions. So when Atom ko or stun John, he will use the ring to finish off Box if needed. Like here:
https://imgur.com/9epazMi
An injured Atom saved the Justice League from a de-adhesion ray by using a power ring.
https://imgur.com/HKadjol
https://imgur.com/ztN9pLT
The Atom prevents a shrunken Earth from exploding by using a power ring.
https://imgur.com/Unhh2RB
https://imgur.com/PrsHAUB
So we see that the Atom has done some remarkable things with a GL ring far above just creating a boxing glove. He knows how a power ring works and would use that against Box, after GL John is incapacitated.
https://imgur.com/4xpSS7p
Also with my plan, Stardust can help defeat GL John by blasting his vital organs from the inside after he has taken care of Box which shouldn’t take long. So my teammates will help each other with whomever is first to victory over his opponent.
Even Martian Manhunter couldn’t track the Atom when he was right in front of him after he went subatomic.
https://imgur.com/HDwvrws
Atom has hid in a Black Lantern ring undetected as well.
https://imgur.com/4xpSS7p
If Darksaint creates shield Atom will just slip through the molecules of them, as he does below. He also vanishes from Mnemon who could collect and store memories.
https://imgur.com/rxykDmf
Passing between molecules, not even a deadly electron stream can stop him.
https://imgur.com/zlc7Dl4
He can ride on a photon. A light based shield wouldn’t even slow him down. Also notice how he can manipulate density to become weightless and travel many times ftl.
https://imgur.com/JKA7K8d
https://imgur.com/dd7tFHz
Making a long story--short, just like below DarkSaint will never see me coming.
DarkSaint's OP (1/2):
OP
Right, let’s get down to business. A little intro of who I have been (forcibly) given: John Stewart and Madison Jeffries.
John - a GL. Madison - a technopath who can matter manip plastic, glass and metal.
Intro, done.
We have been given preptime, to raise shields. I, of course, do so with John. I mean, let’s be honest here - in this match, I have THE best shields possible. There’s just no comparison. Judges, remember: we are limited to what our own characters have done.
Autoshields protect John from a surprise black hole:
https://i.postimg.cc/J4KX5PQJ/RCO003-1469646842.jpg
And a surprise planetary explosion (which, would be ~ level of Stardust’s greatest SHARED feat):
https://justpaste.it/img/764f2d435c4922cdf1ff3d9afbd3e1dd.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/1d47b7ffc2fef2bffeafc77387169ba5.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/d08afd0f543c180f6a07a5b2f8fec3cf.jpg
That’s literally the entire sequence. They’re all standing around, superhappy, then in the next panel, the entire planet explodes...and they’re just sitting around in space after.
And as for a FOCUSSED (i.e. not auto) shield? Here, the famous Xanshi explosion. The bomb exploded, setting off a secondary explosion which knocked the planet out of orbit into a sun, which went supernova:
https://justpaste.it/img/94ef75169dbeba460d7ac5bc7eb55d71.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/85f2ca3ab63906755330ce0b6dd2747a.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/f92624227b4f84f08116cb3779b383fe.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/4de4b027fae0c9b87bfa2efa3021eda1.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/ec01da0245c631b6886a8c4558080e33.jpg
Tanked. Note that John raised autoshields for MMH as well, and they held out. Madison will be equally protected.
Remember, judges: we are limited to what our own characters have done. Stardust is great - but she is just a tank. Blasting, punching, maybe a black hole created or two. That’s it.
But motherphuckers act like they forgot about Ray.
Oh no, he will shrink in between the shield!
Here, John’s shields are good enough to stop things that are 2D. It doesn’t matter how small Ray gets - he is still 3D. Micro, nano, pico - John has stopped things that are infinitely small. It doesn’t even matter that Ray has shrunk into other dimensions, or smaller than photons etc. I hope people can understand the ramifications of this scan!!
https://justpaste.it/img/ccbbb4a498a9c1180962b283d3dd82c4.jpg
Remember, ALL we can do with this prep time is raise shields. Not shrink, or fly, or leap towards our opponents.
Phew. NOW the match can start.
DING
Firstly, remember: a GL ring is technology:
https://justpaste.it/img/80a7b8f1b309164991ff489064e87e62.png
https://justpaste.it/img/e1f871a969d163e499f7f9b7b1f61498.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/59a764595df8940693614271fd3bfb77.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/a8b0c12c7490045e2eff821d874e15db.jpg
Cyborg, Batman and Hank Henshaw have all hacked them, and Hank has hacked John Stewart’s ring - because it is tech.
Madison Jeffries is a technopath. Do the math.
I merge John and Madison together:
https://i.postimg.cc/pLwLfF3z/RCO021-1469095428.jpg
Note the speed at which Forge and Madison merge. Here, Madison merges with a complex that is SEVERAL ACRES wide and pretty deep:
This is the base:
https://i.postimg.cc/Jnm7gWrh/RCO008-1468983990.jpg
And this is Madison merging:
https://justpaste.it/img/6d240199618c580d01a91d010297b67f.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/de687171c3fb9cd1384b9bdcc9a37f0c.jpg
He merged with the entire base, and fought one of the Great Beasts (Tundra), pretty quickly. A tiny ring will be no issue. He merged with Forge instantly. Note how they are each able to take control as and when it is needed.
Now that I am one being, the world is my techno oyster. My aim is to take control of the Atom’s nifty tech belt. To do so, I can do whatever my ring allows me to do - turn invisible:
https://i.postimg.cc/ZRMwDJZk/RCO018-1466279843.jpg
Go intangible:
https://justpaste.it/img/8223d4db320ae41a7c298e7246889a96.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/54dd6e967a4b2dc272e862a31d53ba8e.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/4x6FNCvt/RCO003.jpg
AND create illusions that were so convincing, they fooled Titus (who had grown stronger in power over the years):
https://justpaste.it/img/50877330ce28a96d81c6196a154a2e6d.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/31f160b530b7b2c2be38228b75547b28.jpg
But this is all John. Remember, I have Madison here, who was able to create a helmet that dampens Legion’s powers:
https://i.postimg.cc/Xv7MR7MX/RCO025-1468896549.jpg
Once I have control of the belt - well, Atom is just a normal human. Maybe I will shrink him to 50%. I can also then shrink Stardust to 50%. Then Stardust is…
Well, she sure is durable. Am sure Supermutant is going to dazzle us with all 10 of her appearances, lol. That she is the ultimate tank, and nothing can hurt her.
But remember: she can feel pain:
https://justpaste.it/img/c90f7b21372ff08ec5cc8ee0b228c64a.jpg
She can be dispersed (for a 10count, by Storm):
https://justpaste.it/img/56d17056f62a995fe20d8af97d41ce64.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/dc9b3ea513628d80e0875c3e0fba7206.jpg
She can be KOd:
https://i.postimg.cc/BvvyhYDK/RCO023-1463041597.jpg
And BRB, with just his foot, is able to hold her down:
https://i.postimg.cc/8kvYnrFt/RCO021-1463041597.jpg
Not to mention, my trump card: she is sentient. She has a mind. John?
https://justpaste.it/img/2c9bab7c75248f797d72b4353dc4a972.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/554753bc4de48af3844a35774676cccf.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/fc85e878aab48db42ce146701d35648a.jpg
To summarise, he took both Boodika and Kreon outside of reality where they were forced to fight their greatest fears in an unwinnable battle. Either they swapped opponents, or they killed themselves.
Without a partner to swap with (I am only doing this to Stardust), she will fight herself until she dies. If needed, I can also create a helmet that will dampen her brainwaves, using Madison's knowledge, which blocks Legion's powers.
Win.
Summary
I raise shields which have blocked infinitely sharp attacks around both my characters. Under this, my ring will auto protect as well as a default.
The match starts, I merge my characters into one, still with shields up.
I take control of Atom’s belt, and shrink both characters (or enlarge them) to 50% of their normal size.
Then using the ring, I mindphuck Stardust into fighting herself until she dies. Atom at this stage is a dwarf.
DarkSaint's OP (2/2):
Counters
Supermutant's team have no shields. So prep time is useless for him.
Match starts, he'll shrink Atom (or probably both), then attempt to fly at me (with Stardust carrying Atom, or using Stardust to propel Ray). Then he'll attempt to argue that light gets through my shield, ride the lightwaves into my brain and short me out that way.
Problem is, he's not getting through shields that block infinitely sharp blades. I can ALSO command my light to react on a SUBATOMIC level, if dimensional is too much to grasp:
https://justpaste.it/img/0d479930e3f182b56f9bca79d7996252.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/007fb5b66c9489f67bcdd4ad0b6bde86.jpg
So I not only have defense, but also offense that can hurt him.
Light getting through is PIS, or if you want, we can hand wave it away as 'comicbook physics' (which Ray is VERY guilty of):
https://justpaste.it/img/8a99f2052038f8103f404a007dc3575c.jpg
No explanation given - we should just accept it. In turn, we should just accept that John’s shields can block light, sound, even infinitely sharp edges, and yet he can still see.
If needed, my shields can block light/sound etc. Here, Madison senses NANObots (all seventy twenty bajillion trillion of them,when Magneto didn't). His senses do not depend on sight, or sound:
https://justpaste.it/img/9db55a014af902b35000fde8a05cbd3a.jpg
https://justpaste.it/img/3e0cd8c5df3df8e01b11f6783161f8c0.jpg
And I really hope he doesn’t try to shrink Stardust:
https://justpaste.it/img/a1946f5ac9c71f991fdf2142112fe55d.jpg
Two minutes's the limit, folks. And even then, he needed Kyle plus a crude stand in order to shrink others. Without preptime, he'll be unable to rig something up before the belt is controlled, or mindphuckery occurs.
Here, Deathstroke is able to react to Ray shrinking:
https://justpaste.it/img/e91b180448833529489d7ac9ff464e99.jpg
And again - note that Atom has to move ‘at maximum velocity’ to avoid Deathstroke’s punches, thus giving us a rough ballpark as to where Atom’s shrinking speed lies - and even speed tires him out:
https://justpaste.it/img/1c21a80b091310bd86405baba46d5869.jpg
Match starts, he'll attempt to attack me, but my shields+illusions+invisibility+intangibility buys me the time for Madison Stewart to take control of his belt, and destroy him with mental attacks.
I have other plans, incidentally. Remember, judges: John has studied a book containing EVERY GL feat performed - past, present and FUTURE:
https://justpaste.it/img/86174fabd9ede593767d55e44549f17a.jpg
And Madison just ‘creates’ things, without needing to know how they work:
https://justpaste.it/img/a92fa091b4e4603033086d03afc3f2da.jpg
And I have merged the two together.
**Again, even though DarkSaint's post had to be divided into a two-parter, it should still only be treated as a SINGLE post.
-Galan
Post 1
Lol.
My opponent calls it ‘Thinking outside the Box’, then….proceeds to do almost exactly what I predicted he would, without taking into account his own limitations or my capabilities.
But let us break his writeup down.
His summary: Raises shields, shrinks BOTH his characters into subatomic levels, then splits his guys up. Stardust flies into Box, and opens a black hole. Atom enters John, dances around in his head and gives him a stroke etc. Ignore his scans, because...well, my previous three sentences just cuts through all of his waffle.
Shields
Admittedly, I didn’t mention his shields - because I didn’t think them of any note. Judges, please ask him to prove what his shields can do. The speed of erection (hehe) around Ben is useless here - what has it stopped? Has it stopped ANYTHING of note, and more importantly, has it stopped mental attacks? If not...oh dear.
Shrinkage
So. Many. Problems. See my OP where I point out the errors. Firstly, he needs equipment to do so (Ray needed Kyle plus a rudimentary kickstand to hang his belt from:
…...
Secondly, he is limited by the two minute limit (although he may try to argue he doesn’t need two minutes). Steel had to modify it with Kryptonian tech so that this limit was removed - but note the size of the equipment here (which is DEFINITELY not standard equipment):
https://i.postimg.cc/mrWRW1vb/RCO012-1582880973.jpg
So, match starts, and….judges, just picture in your heads the two combatants of Supermutant standing awkwardly there as they try to shrink.
Thirdly, well...you’ve seen my scan with Deathstroke. Hardly lightspeed shrinkage, is it?
Splatter
Everything is as I predicted. Again, note my scan:
Infinitely sharp. 2D. And did he say subatomic?
https://i.postimg.cc/2yY7tyJK/RCO012-1469646842.jpg
John can command his light to react at the subatomic level.
So ASSUMING Supermutant’s oh-so-clever duo manage to shrink (eventually)....what good is that? They will bounce off my shield, and them flying next to me just brings them closer to my technopathy.
Here, Madison on the fly creates a suit of armour for himself from the latest stealth Sentinel armour, then turns THAT armour into a spear, then hurls it through another Sentinel:
....
From random bits of junk, he creates a spybot, then another autonomous robot to fight for him:
...
Talking to an oil rig:
https://i.postimg.cc/xChVgk3D/RCO013-1469028171.jpg
Talking to a coffee machine to figure out time travel:
https://i.postimg.cc/brnc5zmG/RCO011-1468909649.jpg
And THIS is the guy that Supermutant is so helpfully speeding towards, with some awesome belt tech (what was his rebuttal again? That it’s a white dwarf suit and has no tech? Pish-posh! He still has that nifty belt - note this sentence from Super:
If Darksaint creates shield Atom will just slip through the molecules of them, as he does below. He also vanishes from Mnemon who could collect and store memories.
https://imgur.com/rxykDmf
For those too lazy to click, here are the relevant panels:
Summary
So yeah. Those are the three ‘S’s. His shields are pretty, but have no feats, his shrinkage needs prep and time, and even if it works, he’s limited to 2 minutes, and even if he manages to achieve it, my shields will block him, whilst his attempts to attack me only bring him closer to my influence.
Meanwhile, I have become invisible, intangible, and have set up duplicate decoys for him to attack, whilst shielded. Forge and Madison shared a body, and were pretty combat effective:
Oh sure, after reading this post Super prob has and will try new things - but remember, I have already neutralised his one offense (shrinking) and have taken control of his one defense (the belt).
Game. Set. Match.
DS COUNTERS BLUNDERS
I most definitely have prep shields. Stardust easily shielded against a planet type bursting attack, and effortlessly put the Thing in one while moving the shield extremely fast. Now judges this is a key part of DS’ strategy believing that I didn’t have shields, so his entire plan goes kaput right out the gate.
https://imgur.com/a/djFSFvX
The Atom alone has something like a forcefield, and complete control over his molecules with the white dwarf star.
https://imgur.com/a/dRInYzS
DS claims that Atom shrinking only lasts for 2 minutes. But that’s outdated sort of like a GL being weak to yellow. And he can always use his shrinking ability to re-stabilize a being if necessary. Stardust would just reform or grow back normal taking out his opponent.
https://imgur.com/AwYTUYi
https://imgur.com/5HMkGij
DS tries to insinuate that the Atom needs help to shrink multiple people. Again that is an outdated reference. Also the Atom is only shrinking Stardust here, not a group of heroes, definitely well within his own ability. Notice how quickly he does it too.
https://imgur.com/eBENqOE
https://imgur.com/tZdpVOA
Plus as seen below the Atom can easily shrink a group of seven heroes under his own power. Not only does he shrink them, but he also uses the Justice League teleporter all within the time of one blast from Firestorm. And again this gives us a sense of how fast his shrinking is, before Superman can even react to it, they are gone. Judges please pay special attention to the fact that GL Kyle was also affected by the Atom’s shrinking.
https://imgur.com/PAfbjHH
https://imgur.com/YXHohq6
Deathstroke needed prep for Ray in Identity Crisis which still didn’t make sense for someone who can control his own mass and density. However, all he needed to do to stop GL Kyle from being able to use his ring was to break his fingers. Goes back to our theme of how quickly pain can cause a GL to lose focus and concentration. And Kyle>John. Slade was about to take Kyle’s ring before Green Arrow interfered. The amount of pain my team is causing their opponents from internal attacks, is far above some broken fingers.
https://imgur.com/EA1sbpE
https://imgur.com/wcXbBTi
Anyway this is why trying to lowball with Slade is beyond laughable. A handicapped and powerless Ray with only one good arm basically one-shotted Slade from his sick bed, with his bad arm! lol. Then one of the most humiliating defeats of all time happened, the Atoms gave Slade baby hands.
https://imgur.com/a/nYmUwLB
I’m sure DS just forgot to show the next page when Slade fought Ray in the Titans comic. Ray takes him down by rapidly re-expanding a single molecule charge resulting in a small nuclear blast. Ray gets overconfident and starts a monologue giving Slade time to recover, but Ray had him dead to rights there. The most important thing here is that the Atom can do this same attack inside the body of GL John and Box, especially if somehow they are allowed to be merged. A nuclear blast from the inside would be devastating to them.
https://imgur.com/EHuaKuX
Again DS tries to low ball and confuse with some made up max velocity shrinking speed against Slade. However, below the Flash at super speed with high velocity throws the Atom all the way to a living planet’s core, while the Atom is growing smaller and thinner than the molecules around him. He’s not tiring or overtaxing himself in any way. Plus I haven’t even attempted a punch, I’m not fighting h2h lol. The only thing my team may punch or kick are my opponents’ brain, heart, etc on the inside of their body.
https://imgur.com/A0IUOmU
Only takes the Atom a split second to use his shrinking and enlarging ability on a group of heroes. In this BZ my team is shrunken immediately at the start while traveling at ftl speed, an extremely fast process.
https://imgur.com/skSMU80
DS did not even attempt to track or scan for me, which is another huge mistake in his plan, and it's too late now for him to try an adjust it now. As previously shown, black lantern rings which tracked based on emotion and not normal senses couldn’t even find Ray inside one of the rings. Guy Gardner using Sinestro’s power ring did not detect the Atom who landed right on top of the power ring.
https://imgur.com/a/X6Li6iD
Atom slips in between the molecules of Classic Fate’s helmet undetected. And hurts him with a physical attack that makes Dr. Fate lose concentration and focus.
https://imgur.com/eiZOz9s
https://imgur.com/tmKAi17
I don’t have to track for him because he’s stationary and just attempting to merge behind shields. But I can with Stardust if needed, also shows that he has telepathy.
https://imgur.com/bMGySEx
DS scan of the jobbers Royal Flush Gang being in 2-d and unable to cut through John’s shield is meaningless in this BZ. Below the Atom beat a 2-d man specifically by shrinking down in size. Which is the exact same thing the Atom is doing against John’s shield. Notice how the Atom effortlessly goes much smaller than the microscopic width of this 2-d man. Ray Palmer is the expert in DC in shrinking, the JLA, Batman, Superman, Pro. Stein, everybody goes to him with issues relating to shrinking. The Royal Flush Gang are just a bunch of goons who steal tech that they do even understand most of the time. To try and compare these briefly 2-d morons in any way to the scientific genius, experience, and beyond subatomic abilities of Ray is ridiculous.
https://imgur.com/MnvISiP
https://imgur.com/xrSwfHt
The main issue here is can GL John stop the Atom from getting through his shield. And the simple answer is no. In addition to going smaller than subatomic, the atom can decrease his weight and mass in order to phase through things.
Ray slips between the magnetic waves from Star Sapphire’s attack. And takes her jewel, using it to help Wonder Woman.
https://imgur.com/UgebzuG
https://imgur.com/VUexWLs
So the Atom has slipped through the similar type of magnetic attack that has rendered a GL’s power ring useless.
The Atom became so small that not even the Construct’s death rays could affect him. He was actually able to ride the rays back to its source and enlarged himself tearing apart his robotic opponent. I simply will be smaller and slip through than molecules and particles that make up John’s shield.
https://imgur.com/a/VkS86aW
Part 2
Here the Atom rides on a mental force beam into the brain of Jean, trying to use telepathy against my team just gives them another way into my opponents’ brain. That’s right, on an intangible and invisible force of mental energy, so how is a thought based shield of light going to keep him out.
https://imgur.com/2dJlwoD
Now let’s carefully look at the scan where John says, “I’m willing the light to respond at subatomic level.” The very next scene he gets blasted and screams in pain lol. His aura/defense didn’t stop his opponents’ attack there and it's not going to stop my team either. Also he needed the other GL Corps members to shield him, and of course they are not in this BZ.
https://imgur.com/bbDyDKh
https://imgur.com/Dss9Y7v
Additionally, there are a lot of unknowns about these attackers, all we know from that comic is that they could turn invisible and somehow bend light. These beings are mostly featless on panel, and a photon is the smallest unit of light. So at best GL John can vaguely affect a photon at the sub atomic level, while Atom as previously shown can shrink past that and control his mass and density to be lighter than a photon as well. Anyway John never made a shield, especially a 360 degree one that could respond to light at a subatomic level. All he did was use his opponents own light bending force against them to make matter. And my team will easily shrink and slip through any kind of matter or light based shield.
The main thing is that the Atom is neither light nor a light manipulator. Just like against the death rays from the Construct, the atom will slip past the particles and photons of John’s shield and wreak havoc on DS’ team internally. John can’t affect photons and mutlitask, as he couldn’t even defend himself.
The Atom has manipulated the protons inside Superman’s cells to make kryptonite. Again the difference between the leading expert in shrinking and everything related to it, compared to GL John who at best dabbled in one only instance of affecting light on a subatomic level.
https://imgur.com/bP8FS91
Below the Atom goes between the subatomic particles in the nucleus of the freaking Firestorm Matrix and separates Ronald and Jason. Notice how the Matrix tries to fight against Ray but he still manages to break it apart. This really should put to rest any notion that GL John can stop me from shrinking between his shields.
https://imgur.com/a/XXpgRKj
Plus most of the GL Corps and some Sinestro Corps members were shrunken by a bootleg and inferior model of Brainiac being controlled by Larfleeze. If GL John could normally affect subatomic particles one would think that he would have tried so to free himself, his teammates, and the innocent people trapped in the miniaturized bottled city.
https://imgur.com/a/NYHULPy
Storm’s lightning did no damage to Stardust and she was forming back before Storm even realized it. So we don’t know exactly how long but she formed back quickly. However, Major Disaster made John scream in pain from an attack of lightning, after he blocked John’s attack with his forcefield.
https://imgur.com/TQxvsBl
Anyway Stardust can turn intangible which is it’s natural state.
https://imgur.com/bMGySEx
One of the few rules we have states clearly no merging, making a large part of DS’ plan null and void. I guess this is up for the judges to decide, but it seems pretty clear to me.
Philosophia
Rules:
2). 1 mid herald and 1 low-herald (separate, not merged)
About the only thing DS got right was the name of the characters.
DarkSaint's Final Post:
Final post
And here we come to the end of this quick and enjoyable little match. Super, as always, I respect you, and thank you for a mild diversion on my way to the finals.
His posts, from start to finish, were a mess of contradictions and half-truths. Herrings, rich in their red colour and stinkiness. Strawmen that would make Dorothy blush in delight.
Whilst from the start, I predicted his every move and knew him inside and out, whilst he groped about blindly for a way in.
Firstly, to counter his last (non) point - that merging is not allowed. Sorry, but the rules aren’t that merging isn’t allowed, but simply that the characters are separate at the start of the match.
Which they are. What they do AFTER the match starts, is perfectly legal. Match starts, they are NOT merged, as per rules. Read the quote from Super - I haven't got an amalgam at the start of the match. They are two distinct separate characters. Moreover, read my previously posted scans - Madison and Forge are still two characters, still two personalities.
He had shields, which I confess I did not address - but showed nothing about their potency. I challenged him in my rebuttal to show their feats - but we just saw a regurgitation of the same tired 2 scans.
Zero feats from them.
So whilst I fully agree and accept that Stardust (note that all of a sudden, ATOM is also attempting to raise shields now!) has shields….so what? Do we attribute no limits? Can I claim they will stop Galactus, Mad Celestials, the Black Winter? No. Why? Because they have no feats to support that they can - and neither can he claim they protect him in this match. Even in his own single ‘durability’ feat, Stardust’s shields didn’t protect her from a planet type bursting attack (what does this even mean?).
He claimed that Ray didn’t have tech to control (read his very first post about white dwarf stars, lol), yet posts MULTIPLE scans of Ray tinkering with his belt to control himself (naughty boy!). Tried to throw the judges off with scans about the Royal Flush Gang being idiotic jobbers - Judges, I am not trying to compare their intelligence with Ray Palmer. Claims that Ray is neither light nor light manipulator - 100% agree, judges. Not my point - my point being that the shield has blocked infinitely sharp (and hence, infinitely small) attacks, as per the great BatGod’s (NOT the jobbers, lmao) words.
He claims that I did not even attempt to track or scan for him - guess he missed my lovely scans in my OP (so no changing here) of Madison detecting - when no other mutant (or Shi-Ar tech, like Danger) on the entire island of Utopia did - trillionS of nanobots. Let me repeat:
….
Poor show.
By the way, those laughable scans with that 2-D man that Super is pinning his hopes on? Jesus. Judges, please click on the scans. Specifically, the second scan. According to Ray, ‘Adrian’s MICROSCOPIC width looks like a giant redwood to me!’. So that ‘2-D’ man, is only….sure, he’s superthin, but NOT infinitely thin. Again, compare his words to Batman’s, lol. This is like saying Luke Cage has superstrength….so he must be able to match Superman/Thor/Hulk's best. There are degrees to this, guys.
Compare and contrast his:
With mine:
It’s like he just did CTRL+F for “2D” and neglected to actually read the scans.
Super attempts to throw shade on poor John, by pointing out that he screams in pain after willing his light to react at subatomic levels. HOWEVER, note the last panel in his own scan (which I previously posted):
No help. Next page:
No help.
Judges, one last thing. Note that nowhere in his ‘counter’ is there ANYTHING countering the majesty of Madison Jeffries. His entire strategy relies on Ray - yet, Ray in turn relies on the tech within his belt.
Which Madison controls like putty.
Summary
Let’s repeat and go over each other’s tactics. Ignore his attempts at throwing the kitchen sink - oh, Stardust can go intangible! Atom has a shield! ABC logic on magnetic attacks! Stardust has some form of telepathy! The Royal Flush Gang are idiots!
All these were posted after the fact, and are red herrings at best. Ignore any new tactics he may attempt to bring up . The flounderings of a desperate, deluded, drowning man.
Prep starts, we raise shields. My shields protect me from surprise planetary explosions, black holes, infinitely small attacks, and can react at subatomic levels. Super also raises shields, which can...web Ben Grimm up and send him places? Cool. If any of us need an Uber, I know who to call.
Match starts. My team merge (legally). We go invisible, intangible, and have decoys that have fooled Titus. We mindrape Stardust, and simultaneously take control of his tech belt to turn Atom into a dwarf. I mean, if we want we can then...punch him? Whatever.
He...attempts to shrink his characters, and send them on their merry way against me.
Against my shield, which as per BatGod’s words, stop infinitely small attacks.
Against John, who can trap Stardust’s mind in a neverending battle against herself until she commits suicide (note that there has been ZERO counter against this, btw).
Against Madison, who can detect things no other mutant/sentient Shi Ar could, and who can control technology, and create mind dampening helmets that block LEGION (again, no counter was posted against this):
.
Whilst he himself uses technology to control his entire strategy.
The beauty of my strategy is that I have tied Super up chasing shadows and making him lost in his attempts to dash down blind alleys. Even if we assume that he can shrink both Atom and Stardust, and there is no two minute limit (which he hasn’t proven, by the way), at the end of the day, so what? He STILL cannot get past my shields, despite him trying to throw PIS/CIS moments at me. "Oh, John doesn't show those shields in this instance, so that means he never has it!"
Does Superman use HV in EVERY single fight he has? If I post a scan where he isn't using HV, does that mean it isn't one of his powers? Ludicrous. I am in control of John in this match, and I erect shields that block infinitely small attacks, whilst controlling his tech.
Judges, come on. I won this in my OP.
Supermutant's Final Post:
I know DS has heard this many times after his lovers complain of his disappointing performances, but SIZE DOES MATTER. My little operation thinking outside the box is in full effect and hasn’t changed at all.
So the main issue here and the one that I’m sure the judges will agree on that decides this BZ, is whether GL John’s shield can stop my team from slipping through them.
So far DS relies on only two scans to show that John’s shield will keep my team out. The main problem with the Royal Flush Cannon Fodders scan is that John doesn’t even use a normal prep shield, it’s an energy field. lol Batman clearly requests that John, “throw an energy field around me,” and we see the energy around the edges of it. Not to mention that these royal dummies can have the infinity gauntlet and the anti-life equation and still get one-shotted by Aunt May recovering from covid-19. Plus I have already shown the Atom shrinking down and 1-shotting a 2-d man, nothing special about 2-d in this bz. It’s rarely a good idea to try and apply real world logic/science to comic books. DS definitely did not state that he was creating an energy field but a prep shield (which is the only thing allowed before the match), so the royal flushers scan is irrelevant here.
https://imgur.com/We2nUia
DS other scan is again John not using a shield but an one-directional beam against light benders. No need to beat a dead horse as addressed the other problems with this scan previously. But just to be clear, John does not stop light from affecting him here, but instead he goes on the attack to stop the source of the light bending.
https://imgur.com/bbDyDKh
https://imgur.com/Dss9Y7v
DS is sneaky and tries to give John’s shields a no limit fallacy.
In turn, we should just accept that John’s shields can block light, sound, even infinitely sharp edges, and yet he can still see.
LOL Why should that assumption be made? Sound has gotten through John’s defenses.
https://imgur.com/AwtkDwc
Even the Canary Cry.
https://imgur.com/HMMpIev
Fatality with her spear that is far from infinitely sharp.
https://imgur.com/io8cZ8i
Heat vision
https://imgur.com/yOGvtxa
And the Weaponer identified John’s reliance on visual input as a weakness to be exploited.
https://imgur.com/cUbUQId
https://imgur.com/o2LJKc4
Now let’s carefully examine the Atom and GL John patrolling on the moon from JLA #77 (1997). Some scans have already been shown by DS and myself, but let's look at this vital sequence in order which should go a long way in deciding this BZ. So GL John is protecting the Atom with a shield since they are on the moon, and John has a protective aura on himself page 5.
https://imgur.com/j3E9M31
Next John and Atom find an unidentifiable object and the Atom shrinks to investigate it. Since they are still on the moon’s perimeter it certainly would not make any sense for John to have removed the bubble around the Atom or the aura around himself here. Even though the aura is not displayed by the art in this panel on page 6. There is no mention of the Atom asking John to remove the bubble, so the only reasonable conclusion that we can make is that the Atom shrunk through the molecules of the bubble that John placed around him. Also Atom’s suit (because of the white dwarf star matter) automatically protects him with a forcefield and adjusts his mass and density. We see a blue aura around Ray here.
https://imgur.com/aGHKO2a
Now we turn to the very important page 7 where we initially see the green aura still around John, and then his memory is stolen about the knowledge of his power ring. This part is crucial b/c on the previous page, John still had knowledge and was using his ring like normal. Meaning that he was protecting Ray and himself with it, until Ray slipped through the bubble by shrinking. Back to page 7, Batman even asks John why he is shutting down his ring, because without it Ray and John will be dead in seconds. So Batman even assumed that John was still protecting Ray with a bubble/shield.
https://imgur.com/uNp66Ja
And we finally see on page 8 where the Flash had to rescue John and bring in the mysterious device that the Atom was inside of. So all the evidence here points to the Atom shrinking and quickly slipping through the shield of GL John which is exactly the same thing that Atom and Stardust are doing in this BZ.
https://imgur.com/dY8BYYn
Stardust being intangible, correct scan this time. And DS is right about Stardust only having a few appearances, so much weight must be given to the fact that Stardust has used intangibility before in combat.
https://imgur.com/6cZC2Pz
DS thinks he can take control of Atom’s belt buckle which is protected by a forcefield from white dwarf star materials. And he’s shielded at the start by Stardust. Plus I have not seen one scan from DS that states what the belt buckle is made from. There are other materials that it may come from beside metal. DS also did not even attempt to scan for me, so how would Box even know where I am. I go smaller beyond subatomic at the start, and I’m weightless and intangible. Even at just subatomic size if the belt buckle is metal, it is at such a miniscule amount that it would not even register to Box especially without specifically scanning for it. And it’s not like Ray is standing still, he is traveling at ftl speed plus intangible and weightless. So Box would have to overcome all that while merging too, to even attempt doing something to a possible beyond subatomic metal buckle, seems very unlikely.
Again just a slight and brief momentary loss of concentration and GL John’s dam construct breaks and he is koed by rushing water. “The psychic feedback-- so excruciating!”
https://imgur.com/eeBVnFe
Here is the missing scan where Dr. Polaris shuts down Hal’s ring and John suffers another internal attack from his opponent.
https://imgur.com/xeKwiKO
DS has over-extended John, who will need every last bit of concentration to try and keep me out of his shields. He won’t be merging or doing all these other things at the same time. He has yet to show 1 scan of John’s multitasking on the level that is required in this BZ. The fight has turned into a jack of all trades in John vs the master of one in Ray. And the master of shrinking, Ray, has slipped through shields, magnetic waves, brain waves, death rays, indestructible mystical objects, electron storms, the firestorm matrix, etc his entire super hero career. Ray is doing what he is best at doing but John is only attempting to do something where he has one instance of affecting subatomic light. There is really no comparison between their experiences of dealing with subatomic and smaller particles.
It’s no secret that someone utilizing the Atom will use shrinking. Just like the Flash will use his speed, and the Hulk is going to get angry and smash. The problem is can the opponent stop it, and here my team is getting through DS’ shield and destroying/koing them from the inside.
Stardust’s blast has hurt Beta Ray Bill, and can be fired from its many eyes.
https://imgur.com/sB7FQOn
https://imgur.com/fboJN7z
Not much to say more about Box as he needs prep here, which I’m surely not trying to give him.
Short Summary
Prep Shields from Stardust
Atom shrinks Stardust and himself beyond subatomic
While Stardust at ftl speeds flies them to my opponents
Atom and Stardust slips through the molecules of John’s shield
And enters my opponents bodies whether merge or not
And with an internal black hole and cosmic blasts from Stardust
Combine with the Atom inflicting maximum pain on the brain and internal organs, etc
My team wins.
Pr's verdict:
Okay... Again, three characters I know very little about. Good stuff.Gonna be honest, I loved Supermutant's opening "Lanterns ain't shit" post. It was a great read.
Then Darksaint's reply was posted, and I realised that he had actually largely predicted what Supermutant would do. The question then was, could DS counter it like he said he would. I wasn't sure, if I'm being honest, and then DS brought up Atom's belt, only for SM to counter with his clarification of the Atom's abilities.
I'm gonna be honest, this was much closer than most matches I've read, and I liked the back and forth (kudos to SM for making me lol a couple of times), and by the time the final posts came about I was still finding myself undecided, and had to actually go back and read them a second time.
In the end, it came down to a couple of things in SM's post I didn't buy, and DS's point about Madison Jeffries just not being countered strongly enough.
But I have to pick one person, and it's gonna be DarkSaint. I really enjoyed the back and forth you guys had, and I actually had to go back several times and read certain scans to see if they really did line up with what you guys were saying, to see if I agreed.
Smurph's verdict:
This was a great match in some ways, and a frustrating one in other ways. As a judge I wish I had the opportunity to ask questions of each poster and give them a chance to answer. Both Darksaint and Supermutant put a lot of work into their strats and posts, and it’s too bad that a few points were left unaddressed on either side.In this format though, I gotta judge just on what’s been said and shown, so here goes: in the end, I felt that Supermutant had a more effective strategy, while Darksaint was a more effective debater. I vote for Supermutant, but by a very narrow margin.
Strategy: I was left wondering why DS took the time to merge Box and John. Sure, it might open up cool possibilities, but as is, his strategy and debate could have proceeded without the merger. If the point was to enhance Box’s ability to find and control Atom’s belt, which was the crux of his plan, then I needed more info about how the ring would make Box more effective. Ultimately the merger seemed to just make DS into an easier target, and it took up the crucial opening second of the match. That said, I think DS was right when he argued that there was nothing illegal about the strategy.
SM’s strategy worked because the point was clear and easily backed up with scans. Use Atom to do what he does best, and only rely on Stardust for things taken directly from the scans: FTL travel and a black hole. Cool, got it.
Debate: DS did a great job making the most of the ways he could attack SM’s plan, which meant SM spent basically all of his posts having to prove every aspect of Atom’s powers, and didn’t spend enough time poking holes in the parts of DS’ strat that went largely unaddressed: invisibility/intangibility/illusions/mental attacks, etc.
DS made the most out of the potential for Box to control Atom’s belt if/once he finds it. DS needed more evidence that Box could find it (it must be easier to detect a massive swarm of nanobots than it is to find a single subatomic belt), but Supermutant didn’t do much to convince me that the belt was not technology/metal. On the balance of probabilities, sure, Box might be able to tell the belt to grow or shrink Atom.
Ultimately though, I think SM could reach DS before DS could locate SM’s belt, and I think an internal black hole/Atom attack could really mess DS up, so the whole match seemed to come down to the issue of John’s shield vs Atom. It seems like DS and SM would agree, given how the debate went.
IMO, Supermutant won because Atom could breach John’s shield. DS made the most out of a couple scans, but all the Royal Flush Gang scan proves is that John can block something infinitely thin and sharp, not something infinitely small. It’s the difference between blocking a two-dimensional plane/line, and blocking a singular dot. This scan might have created enough doubt if DS was up against a character who had only shrunk once or twice, but obviously that wasn’t the case. In the end, this match may have been won in the random drafts.
Dambo's verdict:
So...my hats off to both of you, an elite match to be sure.Very well argued and fun to read.
First off, that was an absolutely savage counter to by Darksaint to Supermutant's opening strategy.
Almost point by point reaction, and I didn't think Super was going to be able to recover.
Stardust's lack of showings are very damaging, especially the shields in comparison are basically fodder compared to John Stewart.
However...as amazing as the 2d showing for the shields is, DS's strategy was heavily dependent on it.
When it comes to shrinking, Super proved that Atom goes where he likes. And even if John can adapt to the sub atomic light speed black hole blitz that's coming his way, which I do believe he can do, I think that Super's strategy would work ever so slightly more times than not.
And because of that, SuperMutant gets my vote.
That really is a 5.1/10 victory though, I could easily see DS's team winning, I'm just forced to pick a winner and that's how I scored it. My respects to you both.
Winner: Supermutant
