Anti-Vax vs. Pro-Vax

Started by dadudemon1 pages

Anti-Vax vs. Pro-Vax

Some say vaccinations cause autism, developmental delays, and illness in children.

Some say that's junk science.

I'm looking to collect the various perspectives and get into the science.

Send me science. Discuss the science. Post credible research. Rebuttals to research. etc.

Anti-Vax:

First one I ran into that is recent is this one:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2050312120925344

Vaccination before 1 year of age was associated with increased odds of developmental delays (OR = 2.18, 95% CI 1.47–3.24), asthma (OR = 4.49, 95% CI 2.04–9.88) and ear infections (OR = 2.13, 95% CI 1.63–2.78). In a quartile analysis, subjects were grouped by number of vaccine doses received in the first year of life. Higher odds ratios were observed in Quartiles 3 and 4 (where more vaccine doses were received) for all four health conditions considered, as compared to Quartile 1. In a temporal analysis, developmental delays showed a linear increase as the age cut-offs increased from 6 to 12 to 18 to 24 months of age (ORs = 1.95, 2.18, 2.92 and 3.51, respectively). Slightly higher ORs were also observed for all four health conditions when time permitted for a diagnosis was extended from ⩾ 3 years of age to ⩾ 5 years of age.

I don't know about rebuttals to this. Help me with rebuttals or replies to this study.

Second one I ran into:

accinations have prevented millions of infectious illnesses, hospitalizations and deaths among U.S. children, yet the long-term health outcomes of the vaccination schedule remain uncertain. Studies have been recommended by the U.S. Institute of Medicine to address this question. This study aimed 1) to compare vaccinated and unvaccinated children on a broad range of health outcomes, and 2) to determine whether an association found between vaccination and neurodevelopmental disorders (NDD), if any, remained significant after adjustment for other measured factors. A cross-sectional study of mothers of children educated at home was carried out in collaboration with homeschool organizations in four U.S. states: Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi and Oregon. Mothers were asked to complete an anonymous online questionnaire on their 6-to 12-year-old biological children with respect to pregnancy-related factors, birth history, vaccinations, physician-diagnosed illnesses, medications used, and health services. NDD, a derived diagnostic measure, was defined as having one or more of the following three closely-related diagnoses: a learning disability, Attention Deficient Hyperactivity Disorder, and Autism Spectrum Disorder. A convenience sample of 666 children was obtained, of which 261 (39%) were unvaccinated. The vaccinated were less likely than the unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with chickenpox and pertussis, but more likely to have been diagnosed with pneumonia, otitis media, allergies and NDD. After adjustment, vaccination, male gender, and preterm birth remained significantly associated with NDD. However, in a final adjusted model with interaction, vaccination but not preterm birth remained associated with NDD, while the interaction of preterm birth and vaccination was associated with a 6.6-fold increased odds of NDD (95% CI: 2.8, 15.5). In conclusion, vaccinated homeschool children were found to have a higher rate of allergies and NDD than unvaccinated homeschool children. While vaccination remained significantly associated with NDD after controlling for other factors, preterm birth coupled with vaccination was associated with an apparent synergistic increase in the odds of NDD. Further research involving larger, independent samples and stronger research designs is needed to verify and understand these unexpected findings in order to optimize the impact of vaccines on children's health.

From this, my first criticism is obvious: this wasn't an RCT, it was self-reported (though anonymous). We need clinical verification and this needs to be a controlled trial. I don't trust self-reported studies like these.

https://www.mendeley.com/catalogue/e9fcdf44-d406-3ef2-b196-4423ef9a9f53/

Other than that, that's the science of it and they report no competing interests. Anyone else have any rebuttals?

Pro-Vax

I struggled with this. I need just a broad study that covers the entire gamut of outcomes for children: NDD, OR, etc. I couldn't find any. I gave up. I was tired of looking. But I do find a ton of specific studies such as this meta-analysis (kind of ?) from the CDC:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/pdf/cdcstudiesonvaccinesandautism.pdf

The CDC collects a ton of research on their site and they have research that covers the bad and the good related to vaccinations. I think they do an honest job of the vaccination debate.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/research/publications/index.html

Someone help me on the pro-vax side with better research. There was just too much research to go through.

Here's my stance: vaccines are great and have saved hundreds of millions of lives. The limited harm it causes is worth it. But we should do better and better with the science. Always work on balancing life and quality of life when developing these wonder-drugs. I am not super-pro-vaccination but I'm pretty close to it. I always desire drug safety and having all the facts before you so you know what you're getting into is always a good choice.

Do vaccines cause autism? Maybe? Mostly no. Some research suggests there may be a link but it is weak, at best. Having a child is better than tons of dead babies.

I know this is a contentious topic and some of you may not like how strongly I support vaccines. But try to keep it civil. Stick to the science. Post a lot of it. Discuss the science.

Despite what many people on this forum may think, I am not really anti-vax. I am pro-free will. I would call it '"pro-choice" but I don't like being associated with a term that is linked to pro-abortion people.

And I could list plenty of evidence that vaccines are dangerous but I feel like it would just be a huge waste of time. I would put so much effort and time into it and it would just end-up being hand-waved away by the pro-vaxxers as not being reliable sources or whatever so not gonna bother.

Feel free to post that research. I'm here specifically to criticize the research, pick it apart, point out methodology weaknesses, etc.

Best outcomes are RCTs that focus on real world outcomes over long periods of time with very large sample sizes. That's the best kind of science.

From Smallpox to Polio and beyond, vaccines have eradicated diseases since Jenner played with sharp objects, milk maids and small boys.

/end thread

I think compulsory anything is problematic, based off governments historically abusing such powers (Including our own)

Jonas Salk proved to the entire planet that vaccines work.

And well, too.

They are exyremely dangerous, that's a fact and nothing you say will ever change that fact. 👆

I'd rather take my chances by boosting my immune system naturally rather than having a dangerous vaccine put into my body.

You wanna keep taking vaccines that's your business but don't try to force that shit on me.

Originally posted by cdtm
I think compulsory anything is problematic, based off governments historically abusing such powers (Including our own)

Agreed, and if Trump doesn't make it clear that the vaccine (or vaccines,plural) will be voluntary then he can forget about my vote. At first he said that it would optional but then later on he kinda hinted that it would be mandatory when he said in passing that "people have to get their shots."

So it looks like he contradicted himself. He needs to make it clear which position he is taking.

If they are made mandatory and people refuse to take them anyway which many, including myself, will refuse them, what is the government gonna do about it? Arrest us all? Turn off our utilities like politicians in California are now doing to people who don't follow the lockdown mandates? That is a violation of basic human rights, btw.

I'm pro vax but the government in no way should force people to vaccinate.

Government has no right to tell me what to do with my body.

I’m on the side of pro vaccination, but it should never be forced.

I got a flu shot the other day.

Originally posted by Surtur
I got a flu shot the other day.

You'll be mind controlled soon.