Originally posted by jaden_2.0
Started watching this cos I got 6 months free AppleTV (No I won't be watching Ted Cúnting Lasso, so don't start with that sĥit)I like it. It's the 1st show in a while where I watched a full episode without feeling the need to tune out and look at my phone or waft my farts up to my nose and laugh at how bad they smell or wag my cock about inside my shorts. So that's a good sign.
Certainly better than the utter trash that Silo seems to be.
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
It's a great adaptation, they have done things to the timeline for TV, but I loved it. If you like Dune (and you do) you should love Foundation.
Thanks for the recommend. It's hard getting our kids to bed in time. But maybe if I can get my wife hooked on it...
Is there a strong character driven element? (That tends to help my wife get hooked.)
Originally posted by Patient_LeechTo a point, like Dune it has a lot of characters, the characterisation and the plot have some give and take. The Emperor... is the Emperor, I won't spoil it.
Thanks for the recommend. It's hard getting our kids to bed in time. But maybe if I can get my wife hooked on it...Is there a strong character driven element? (That tends to help my wife get hooked.)
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
To a point, like Dune it has a lot of characters, the characterisation and the plot have some give and take. The Emperor... is the Emperor, I won't spoil it.
I read the original.trilogy and part of the add ons.
Was
Spoiler:
disappointed by the execution of The Second Foundation post Mule. As a safeguard against such aberration, ok fine. But then they started manipulating everyone and everything, and it made the Seldon Plan start to look like a dismal failure on the math end if a secret group of psychics can't let things be without meddling.
Emperor is a character, that's for sure.
One point I never quite understood;
Spoiler:
Was the man Hari was dealing with, who was identified as the real power behind the Emperor, meant as some form of "shadow government" leader?E.g. illuminati? Or is there a real life equivalent in the historical Rome the series is based on, who actually called the shots while the Emperor looked pretty? Or what?
Originally posted by cdtmbut that was part of the point of the books, the future cannot be predicted. Anomalies like mule happen.
Emperor is a character, that's for sure.One point I never quite understood;
Spoiler:
Was the man Hari was dealing with, who was identified as the real power behind the Emperor, meant as some form of "shadow government" leader?E.g. illuminati? Or is there a real life equivalent in the historical Rome the series is based on, who actually called the shots while the Emperor looked pretty? Or what?
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
but that was part of the point of the books, the future cannot be predicted. Anomalies like mule happen.
Right, but The Mule is a super powered mutant. I'm talking the everyday nudging of people they kept doing behind the scenes, like that head of state to avert a war, or the coalition of investigators starting with one of the protagonists daughters from the literal cradle.
When you're at the point you reprogram infants, you're past preparations for the unknown, and well into forcing society to shape as you see fit. It calls into question whether Psychohistory ever worked, because a group of Charles Xaviers had been nudging Salvor Hardin, Hober Mallow, Arcadia (Again, reprogrammed as an infant, and who knows what other events.
That, and the Seldon plan never accounted for the Second Foundation itself becoming a threat. Who could stop them if they had? Basically in their way the Second Foundation would become even more dangerous than The Mule, due to their secrecy and absolute ability to influence people.
An "Illuminati" if you will. 🙂
But at the end of the day, basically my real gripe is the demystify of Psychohistory.
The fact is, I liked that the plan just worked. A magic equation, why not? The fun came from seeing how things keep trucking along as planned.
The Mule I didn't mind so much because it added extra flavor. It was the first time the plan failed, the first time the Foundation was defeated.
Then came the retcons, and the miraculous Psychohistory is reveled that it never worked as intended. Harbor Seldin wasn't a genius who Hari somehow predicted would pop up to keep events on course, he was just a man the psychics nudged in the right direction.
Why even have a plan at all, if psychics could fix everything.
Originally posted by cdtmthey didn't fix everything though.
But at the end of the day, basically my real gripe is the demystify of Psychohistory.The fact is, I [b]liked
that the plan just worked. A magic equation, why not? The fun came from seeing how things keep trucking along as planned.The Mule I didn't mind so much because it added extra flavor. It was the first time the plan failed, the first time the Foundation was defeated.
Then came the retcons, and the miraculous Psychohistory is reveled that it never worked as intended. Harbor Seldin wasn't a genius who Hari somehow predicted would pop up to keep events on course, he was just a man the psychics nudged in the right direction.
Why even have a plan at all, if psychics could fix everything. [/B]
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
they didn't fix everything though.
No, but their very existence and activity raises the question of how much of Hari's plan is his vision, and how much is the Second Foundation stealth reprogramming.
Think of it like this, if society is a complex AI, and the programmer predicts its behavior patterns over a five year span, lets it loose in the wild, and continually reprograms it if it strays too far from the prediction, then the prediction was inaccurate.
The Psychohistory element of Foundations was initially presented as a kind of fortune telling. The Mule pops in with "magic", something Hari could not have considered in his plan, to ruin the plan. The Second Foundation is revealed as an emergency measure against the unexpected.
If that was as far as it went, then fine. But they are very much active in shaping the plan. Yes, they have a code, but is the element of a group of psychics really necessary? Does a "benevolent guiding hand" need to exist at all?
If the answer is "yes", then why bother with Psychohistory as a plot element? Strictly speaking, the psychics could force the plan into being, but choose not to. So why don't they? What stops them from doing so?
And if The Second Foundation did not exist, could Psychohistory stand without them, assuming no further aberration like The Mule interfered? If it was only society as it was presented in the first Foundations novel, based off the Roman Empire, could it have worked?
Psychics playing "guiding hand" muddied the waters, at least from my vantage point.
Originally posted by cdtmthe plot evolved beyond psychohistory as I said earlier.
No, but their very existence and activity raises the question of how much of Hari's plan is his vision, and how much is the Second Foundation stealth reprogramming.Think of it like this, if society is a complex AI, and the programmer predicts its behavior patterns over a five year span, lets it loose in the wild, and continually reprograms it if it strays too far from the prediction, then the prediction was inaccurate.
The Psychohistory element of Foundations was initially presented as a kind of fortune telling. The Mule pops in with "magic", something Hari could not have considered in his plan, to ruin the plan. The Second Foundation is revealed as an emergency measure against the unexpected.
If that was as far as it went, then fine. But they are very much active in shaping the plan. Yes, they have a code, but is the element of a group of psychics really necessary? Does a "benevolent guiding hand" need to exist at all?
If the answer is "yes", then why bother with Psychohistory as a plot element? Strictly speaking, the psychics could force the plan into being, but choose not to. So why don't they? What stops them from doing so?
And if The Second Foundation did not exist, could Psychohistory stand without them, assuming no further aberration like The Mule interfered? If it was only society as it was presented in the first Foundations novel, based off the Roman Empire, could it have worked?
Psychics playing "guiding hand" muddied the waters, at least from my vantage point.
Originally posted by cdtmThing is randomness always led to crisises anyway with Hari's Math.
Btw, I just read a Substack where they claim The Mule was never meant to beat The Foundation.Honestly I'm glad he did, the string of wins laid a perfect foundation for it to have real impact. It certainly would have grown stale if it was unbeatable all the time.
I did watch the first episode of season 1 and it was excellent.
It'll probably take me a million years to get through the season, but I liked it...
And it seems like Season 2 is getting some good reviews...