Does Snoke even feats to suggest his hype? Hype is often not accurate, otherwise every jedi and their mother would be one "of the finest swordmen ever produced by the order". Vader himself was supposed to be pretty close to sidious by hype, but facts are what matter in the end, and sidious proved he is >>>Vader
Originally posted by Total Warrior
Does Snoke even feats to suggest his hype? Hype is often not accurate, otherwise every jedi and their mother would be one "of the finest swordmen ever produced by the order". Vader himself was supposed to be pretty close to sidious by hype, but facts are what matter in the end, and sidious proved he is >>>Vader
Best hes got is ragdolling Rey (unless im missing something from the comics).
But I dont see how that places him higher than Dooku in the Force.
She was a Padawan after all. And not a particularly well trained one at that.
Originally posted by Darth ThorOutside of Legends, I don't see how Luke would know the full extent of Palpatine's power.
They are comparing him to ROTJ Sidious due to a note on his power in Lukes journal.Just depends if Luke was fully aware of Palpatines full power though.
Aside from that Other reason to compare them is because hes a clone of Palpatine.
Originally posted by Darth ThorEven if you don't think Luke was able to sense Palpatine's power during RotJ, his journal also notes that he'd been communicating with the spirits of Yoda, Kenobi, and Anakin over the years. Seems likely that he would've had a pretty accurate estimation of Palpatine's power, imo.
They are comparing him to ROTJ Sidious due to a note on his power in Lukes journal.Just depends if Luke was fully aware of Palpatines full power though.
Aside from that Other reason to compare them is because hes a clone of Palpatine.
Originally posted by DominisThe Snoke clones were genetic mutations/strandcasts. Don't think Palpatine would have been willing to transfer his essence into an imperfect vessel.
What ever amount of power Palpatine had as of ROTJ was too strong for Snoke's body to contain, otherwise Snoke's body would have been the vessel Palpatine inhabited. So I think it's safe to say that Snoke isn't as strong as ROTJ Palpatine.
Originally posted by Galan007
Palpatine wanted a permanent vessel -- one that could contain his power indefinitely. I don't think he was interested in endlessly hopping from one crippled body to another.
Yeah, but he was kinda almost forced to do that anyway, considering that the body he was forced to inhabit was also imperfect and falling apart.
Originally posted by DominisIndeed. That's why he was only interested in transferring his essence into a "perfect" vessel that was capable of housing his power indefinitely without falling apart... And Snoke's decrepit body certainly wasn't up to the task.
Yeah, but he was kinda almost forced to do that anyway, considering that the body he was forced to inhabit was also imperfect and falling apart.
That said, the imperfect clone vessel that Palpatine originally transferred his essence into after RotJ still held up for 30+ years. So it's not like he was desperate to find a new host asap -- he had decades to plan/wait for a suitable host to emerge.
Originally posted by Galan007
👆Referring to this:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=17299643#post17299643
I do wonder though, could Sidious do this to prime Vader? He says multiple times how weak he is and that he needs to relearn to regain his power. And he's def mentally off after seeing "Padme" and "Luke".
Originally posted by Galan007
Indeed. That's why he was only interested in transferring his essence into a "perfect" vessel that was capable of housing his power indefinitely without falling apart... And Snoke's decrepit body certainly wasn't up to the task.That said, the imperfect clone vessel that Palpatine originally transferred his essence into after RotJ still held up for 30+ years. So it's not like he was desperate to find a new host asap -- he had decades to plan/wait for a suitable host to emerge.
But the novel implies that his imperfect body started to fall victim to his own power upon transference (and as of The Rise of Kylo Ren comics, he's already forced to needing a machine to survive and get around in) yet it was still the vessel he chose.
None of the vessels that were made were strong enough to contain his spirit the way his original body did, which suggest that he was actually stronger in ROTJ (until he restores himself at the end of TROS).
I’m assuming the clone that Palpatine transferred his essence into was originally not decayed, and he didn’t realized until later that it couldn’t contain his power. The Snoke clone however was a failed clone. Although it had physical mutations/deformities, that doesn’t say anything about his power.
^ Yeah theres no questioning hes miles and miles above all other Sith.
Originally posted by Galan007
Even if you don't think Luke was able to sense Palpatine's power during RotJ, his journal also notes that he'd been communicating with the spirits of Yoda, Kenobi, and Anakin over the years. Seems likely that he would've had a pretty accurate estimation of Palpatine's power, imo.
Hmm...
If undead Palpatine was falling victim to the amount of power he had in ROTJ, then that would suggest that he was stronger in ROTJ on account of having a superior vessel to access the full extent of his power, which would mean that Snoke isn't on par with ROTJ Palpatine, considering he is confirmed to be weaker than even undead Sheev.
However amount of power Snoke had obviously didn't decay his body to the extent that undead Sheev's power was decaying his, which means that while Snoke's body was strong enough to access much force power, it wasn't to extent that Palpatine's undead clone contained, which from inference would be the power he had in ROTJ.
Originally posted by Lord StarkI think Palpatine was just pissed that his apprentice had directly disobeyed his orders, and was punishing/reprimanding him as such.
I do wonder though, could Sidious do this to prime Vader? He says multiple times how weak he is and that he needs to relearn to regain his power. And he's def mentally off after seeing "Padme" and "Luke".
But if you take Palpatine's statements literally, then it really depends if you think the "conflict" Vader was experiencing at the time actually neutered his power to any significant extent... Because you also have to take into account that Vader was pretty enraged by the revelation that Palpatine had lied to him about Padme's death and such(and anger typically bolsters Sith power.) So it's nigh-impossible to quantify how "weakened" Vader may(or may not) have actually been there, imo.
Aside from that, Palpatine also raped Vader with literally NO discernible effort, whilst not actively trying to kill him... Meaning that Palpatine himself was almost certainly holding back quite a bit.
So yeah, I think an encounter between 'prime' Vader and ESB Palps would've played out the same way regardless. /shrug
Originally posted by DominisIt was moreso that Palpatine's cultists were unable to perfect the cloning technique itself. Unable to make a force-sensitive clone vessel that wasn't deformed/mutated in some way. Perhaps Palpatine *could* have hopped into one of the strancasts/Snoke if he absolutely HAD to(we don't know either way), but that would have only been a temporary solution. He wanted permanency.
But the novel implies that his imperfect body started to fall victim to his own power upon transference (and as of The Rise of Kylo Ren comics, he's already forced to needing a machine to survive and get around in) yet it was still the vessel he chose.None of the vessels that were made were strong enough to contain his spirit the way his original body did, which suggest that he was actually stronger in ROTJ (until he restores himself at the end of TROS).
And as mentioned: despite the rancid state of his original clone body, it was still able to contain his essence for decadeS... Which gave Palpatine ample time to wait for a perfect/suitable vessel(ie. Rey) to be conceived through more natural methods.
Yeah I know what Palpatine preferred but he wasn't able to get that through either Snoke or the body he did inhabit on account of both being imperfect, yet the body that seemed to be able to hold his power for at least a time was the one he chose.
If you're suggesting that Palpatine was unable to inhabit Snoke for some reason other than it just not being strong enough, well I don't think that was ever suggested. Seems like they all were just not able to hold up, and that the one he chose was most suitable on account of at least being able to hold his power for a time.
Also, I posted this at around the same time you posted your last post in case you didn't see it....
Originally posted by Dominis
If undead Palpatine was falling victim to the amount of power he had in ROTJ, then that would suggest that he was stronger in ROTJ on account of having a superior vessel to access the full extent of his power, which would mean that Snoke isn't on par with ROTJ Palpatine, considering he is confirmed to be weaker than even undead Sheev.However amount of power Snoke had obviously didn't decay his body to the extent that undead Sheev's power was decaying his, which means that while Snoke's body was strong enough to access much force power, it wasn't to extent that Palpatine's undead clone contained, which from inference would be the power he had in ROTJ.
Originally posted by Galan007
[B]I think Palpatine was just pissed that his apprentice had directly disobeyed his orders, and was punishing/reprimanding him as such.But if you take Palpatine's statements literally, then it really depends if you think the "conflict" Vader was experiencing at the time actually neutered his power to any significant extent... Because you also have to take into account that Vader was pretty enraged by the revelation that Palpatine had lied to him about Padme's death and such(and anger typically bolsters Sith power.) So it's nigh-impossible to quantify how "weakened" Vader may(or may not) have actually been there, imo.
Aside from that, Palpatine also raped Vader with literally NO discernible effort, whilst not actively trying to kill him... Meaning that Palpatine himself was almost certainly holding back quite a bit.
So yeah, I think an encounter between 'prime' Vader and ESB Palps would've played out the same way regardless. /shrug
I mean I think he'd still own him. But it does tie back to when Rebels was first released this idea that peak Vader was really during Rebels because he is deep in darkness. And that Luke spared that light within him. Now you can argue that doesn't directly correlate to power, but I'd think it does.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Now you can argue that doesn't directly correlate to power, but I'd think it does.
Conflict definitely does. Conflicted Anakin couldnt take ROTS Obi-Wan. And there are other examples in canon.
Given that, id say its only a sight amount of conflict beginning to stem here. Vaders peak conflict will be as of ROTJ.