Crisis in Texas

Started by ilikecomics7 pages

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
Flibe Energy say they'd need about a billion dollars to create a proof of concept LFTR and about 4 billion for their first full scale commercial reactor.

Relatively cheap compared to ITER which the US DoE is saying will now run possibly in excess of $65,000,000,000 just for the experimental fusion tokamak reactor currently being built in France which won't actually provide any electricity to the grid. There will also be absolutely zero room for error with ITER. If there's any kind of loss of containment or any kind of explosion, the levels of radiation will be several orders of magnitude greater than any nuclear disaster ever.

To give you an idea of the difference in scale. The highest estimated dose of an emergency worker at Chernobyl was 16 sieverts acute dose.

The inner wall of the ITER reactor will be subject to 70,000,000 sieverts per hour.

Thank you for the info. Seems like a no brainer to me.
4 billion wouldn't be a thing because how much you'd save on health outcomes.

Originally posted by Robtard
Then your issue seems to be with the government of Texas.

You were though, that's how our exchange started.

Greens won't absolutely solve our energy needs, at least not for the foreseeable future, but they are the future alongside other sources, because we need to combat pollution.

I've no real problem with nuclear being used until something better comes along, but again, greens and nuclear can work in conjunction. eg a home can run on solar panels/batteries and still be connected to a grid that runs off a nuclear plant. Using more solar during the day and tapping back into the grid at night.

Climate change is real, as is pollution and humanity needs a fulcrum to enact change. Fossil fuel isn't going away anytime soon, but there will be less and less cars running on it as time goes on and technology progresses. Just as natural gas is replacing coal more and more.

It started that way because the thread is about Texas.
I see the problems in Texas as a result of top down governance, green energy has become a favorite Trojan horse of the political class.
I'm not against green energy, I'm against politicians leveraging it and the average Joe not being able to make the distinction between innovative alternative energy ideas, brought to you by capitalists and entrepreneurs, and coercive measures that not everyone is on board with.

It reminds me of a trick that the communists I used to debate employ.

I point out atrocity committed by s communist leader.
Im met with a rebuttal talking about how many schools were built.
I point out that those are reeducation camps, meant to grab the young minds in the masses, while they're still soft.
Get a response that a I must hate education.

I don't think you followed that formula and everything you said in terms of energy diversification seems pretty reasonable.

Originally posted by rudester
Idk good question. Not prepared I guess
thanks 😊

Originally posted by ilikecomics
It started that way because the thread is about Texas.
I see the problems in Texas as a result of top down governance, green energy has become a favorite Trojan horse of the political class.
I'm not against green energy, I'm against politicians leveraging it and the average Joe not being able to make the distinction between innovative alternative energy ideas, brought to you by capitalists and entrepreneurs, and coercive measures that not everyone is on board with.

It reminds me of a trick that the communists I used to debate employ.

I point out atrocity committed by s communist leader.
Im met with a rebuttal talking about how many schools were built.
I point out that those are reeducation camps, meant to grab the young minds in the masses, while they're still soft.
Get a response that a I must hate education.

I don't think you followed that formula and everything you said in terms of energy diversification seems pretty reasonable.

YouTube video

YouTube video

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
YouTube video

YouTube video

Checking these out now, thanks for posting.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Clearly you aren't against thousands of people being left to die with no energy, however...

I'm meming. I will say though, what people don't understand about the issues with nuclear isn't that it's scary but that the start up costs are insane. Nuclear is a clean energy and safe but in order for it to stay safe it's extremely expensive.

Then there is the waste, which there is no safe way to dispose of.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Then there is the waste, which there is no safe way to dispose of.

Depleted uranium only exists because the state made it illegal to reuse, it's 99.9 percent recyclable

@ Jaden this is a link on my perspective on it. It's a link to a PDF on the ancap perspective on pollution.

https://mises.org/library/law-property-rights-and-air-pollution

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Then there is the waste, which there is no safe way to dispose of.

Yes there is. You can utilise spent fuel waste from traditional reactor technologies in molten salt reactors and reduce it's radioactivity from lasting for tens of thousands of years down to decades. Current uranium and plutonium reactors use between 0.5% and 0.8% of the energy in the fuel before they are considered "spent". Molten salt reactors use upwards of 95% of the energy.

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
Yes there is. You can utilise spent fuel waste from traditional reactor technologies in molten salt reactors and reduce it's radioactivity from lasting for tens of thousands of years down to decades. Current uranium and plutonium reactors use between 0.5% and 0.8% of the energy in the fuel before they are considered "spent". Molten salt reactors use upwards of 95% of the energy.

Thank you for being more exact on the numbers. You're a g.

@ jaden2.0 That video didn't acknowledge how intertwined private Enterprise band state plans are in china.

Also it's weird this guy recognizes the libertarian perspective that any governmental solution to climate change is ineffectual and immoral, but goes on to use Thatcher, THE HEAD OF A GOVERNMENT, as a aha gotcha points. This seems logically inconsistent.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
@ Jaden this is a link on my perspective on it. It's a link to a PDF on the ancap perspective on pollution.

https://mises.org/library/law-property-rights-and-air-pollution

I'm almost certain you've linked me this previously. Can't recall the thread though. It's very similar to potholers "freedonia" concept about your freedoms and actions impacting on others freedoms. The problem as it relates to pollution and the environment is the straight up denial of certain actions having a detrimental impact on others. Particularly when it is not a direct impact. Even when it is a direct impact on others it can take years or even decades of campaigning to break through the denial and lobbying.

Examples would be...

PFOA
passive smoking
Depleted Uranium munitions
Asbestos
Leaded fuels
Thalidomide
Phossy jaw

Think of the flat out denial of the deleterious effects of these things and how long it took or is taking for governments and corporations to accept responsibility, admit to their effects and compensate people who were affected.

Now imagine how much more difficult it is to get corporations and countries to accept responsibility when their individual contributions to an issue and small but cumulatively have much bigger impacts.

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
I'm almost certain you've linked me this previously. Can't recall the thread though. It's very similar to potholers "freedonia" concept about your freedoms and actions impacting on others freedoms. The problem as it relates to pollution and the environment is the straight up denial of certain actions having a detrimental impact on others. Particularly when it is not a direct impact. Even when it is a direct impact on others it can take years or even decades of campaigning to break through the denial and lobbying.

Examples would be...

PFOA
passive smoking
Depleted Uranium munitions
Asbestos
Leaded fuels
Thalidomide
Phossy jaw

Think of the flat out denial of the deleterious effects of these things and how long it took or is taking for governments and corporations to accept responsibility, admit to their effects and compensate people who were affected.

Now imagine how much more difficult it is to get corporations and countries to accept responsibility when their individual contributions to an issue and small but cumulatively have much bigger impacts.

I don't deny those things are deleterious. I am claiming that a company, who did something harmful, can only continue to exist via being subsidized by the state, because the state is force incarnate. And obviously a state can do anything with total imputiny because, again, they have the guns.

In response to how long it took to fix those problems, that's because the state monopolized environmental catastrophe response also the EPA, this people are disincentivized to create private entities to compete with the state, who has infinite funds. Additionally, due to the state being bloated with bureaucracy it doesn't have response time like a private entity would.

In a free market a company that does something deleterious would have to accept responsibility and fix it, otherwise they would shit down because there would be no state to bail it out and they would have to exist solely on merit/reputation.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
@ jaden2.0 That video didn't acknowledge how intertwined private Enterprise band state plans are in china.

Also it's weird this guy recognizes the libertarian perspective that any governmental solution to climate change is ineffectual and immoral, but goes on to use Thatcher, THE HEAD OF A GOVERNMENT, as a aha gotcha points. This seems logically inconsistent.

He doesn't agree that government solutions are ineffectual and immoral. He states that the American conservative belief is that the only solutions being proposed by "the left" involve big government intervention and that those interventions are ineffectual. Neither of those beliefs stand up to scrutiny. As he shows with the Australian carbon pricing example.

Things are never as black and white as left and right dogma would have people believe. The libertarian principle of "let the market decide" never seems to bother to address how subtle governmental interventions gained through powerful lobbying bodies have benefitted certain sectors and deliberately and covertly stifled others. Market forces can't "decide" when aspects of that market are manipulated.

For example. You run a company that has existed for 100 years and is worth 10's of billions of dollars. Over the years your company has spent considerable money lobbying politicians to enact policies which benefit your company. Whether that be tax breaks, removal of regulatory instruments etc.
In the last few years a new company has started up with a technology that has the potential to massively out-compete your own providing that company can get access to the raw materials it needs to scale up. Does your company let theirs continue and thus let the consumers and the market decide? Or does it spend money lobbying politicians to enact legislation that will restrict your competitor from accessing the materials it needs? Does your company use its resources to buy up the same raw materials your competitor requires in order to manipulate the price of the resources? Does your company attempt to drive stock prices of companies to hinder your competitor? Do you use your economic and political clout to sow doubt in the public regarding your new competitor via media, think tanks, seemingly independent "foundations", biased scientific research funded via third parties etc? Is the market ever really left to "decide"?

This is where we are with energy technologies. There is no natural "the market will decide" mechanism going on.

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
He doesn't agree that government solutions are ineffectual and immoral. He states that the American conservative belief is that the only solutions being proposed by "the left" involve big government intervention and that those interventions are ineffectual. Neither of those beliefs stand up to scrutiny. As he shows with the Australian carbon pricing example.

Things are never as black and white as left and right dogma would have people believe. The libertarian principle of "let the market decide" never seems to bother to address how subtle governmental interventions gained through powerful lobbying bodies have benefitted certain sectors and deliberately and covertly stifled others. Market forces can't "decide" when aspects of that market are manipulated.

For example. You run a company that has existed for 100 years and is worth 10's of billions of dollars. Over the years your company has spent considerable money lobbying politicians to enact policies which benefit your company. Whether that be tax breaks, removal of regulatory instruments etc.
In the last few years a new company has started up with a technology that has the potential to massively out-compete your own providing that company can get access to the raw materials it needs to scale up. Does your company let theirs continue and thus let the consumers and the market decide? Or does it spend money lobbying politicians to enact legislation that will restrict your competitor from accessing the materials it needs? Does your company use its resources to buy up the same raw materials your competitor requires in order to manipulate the price of the resources? Does your company attempt to drive stock prices of companies to hinder your competitor? Do you use your economic and political clout to sow doubt in the public regarding your new competitor via media, think tanks, seemingly independent "foundations", biased scientific research funded via third parties etc? Is the market ever really left to "decide"?

This is where we are with energy technologies. There is no natural "the market will decide" mechanism going on.

Do you get that the big businesses that get tax breaks are seen as extensions of the state, from the libertarian perspective ?

This means when a libertarian says let the market decide, he means a truly free market untouched by companies in bed with the state or the state itself.

You have this weird habit of making libertarian points, then right at the end swerve off.

I also mentioned in a thread today how, due to state interference, wealth, over the lockdown, went from the lower and middle class to the upper via state welfare given to the billionaires.

In the video you sent it kept saying how wonderful it was that the top companies profitted from going green, but small businesses that couldn't afford the conversion floundered. That's awful from my pov and judging from your comment you'd agree with that, no ?

Also, I love arguing with you and I hope I'm holding up on my end of things
🙂

P.s. do you really think libertarianism doesn't comment on protectionism, interventionism, subsidizing, sanctions, etc. ?

I'm libertarian and that's all I talk about

Also, what do you think the market is ?

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
Yes there is. You can utilise spent fuel waste from traditional reactor technologies in molten salt reactors and reduce it's radioactivity from lasting for tens of thousands of years down to decades. Current uranium and plutonium reactors use between 0.5% and 0.8% of the energy in the fuel before they are considered "spent". Molten salt reactors use upwards of 95% of the energy.

Why isn't this done then? I suspect cost?

Why are the materials considered spent after less than 1% of usage?

Originally posted by Robtard
Why isn't this done then? I suspect cost?

Why are the materials considered spent after less than 1% of usage?

Propaganda based on Chernobyl, 3 mile island, and Fukushima.
This plus the public's scientific ignorance, combined with it's credulity towards experts = abstaining from using one of the richest, cleanest burning energy sources on the planet.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
I don't deny those things are deleterious. I am claiming that a company, who did something harmful, can only continue to exist via being subsidized by the state, because the state is force incarnate. And obviously a state can do anything with total imputiny because, again, they have the guns.

In response to how long it took to fix those problems, that's because the state monopolized environmental catastrophe response also the EPA, this people are disincentivized to create private entities to compete with the state, who has infinite funds. Additionally, due to the state being bloated with bureaucracy it doesn't have response time like a private entity would.

In a free market a company that does something deleterious would have to accept responsibility and fix it, otherwise they would shit down because there would be no state to bail it out and they would have to exist solely on merit/reputation.

We've had this discussion before. It simply isn't true that in a free market, companies that conduct deleterious acts would have to accept responsibility and fix it. Even in the modern age where you have access to information on how companies conduct themselves across the globe large corporations, in the absence of a functioning state, act with impunity and would never alter their behaviours if not forced to do so.

Oil companies shipping millions of barrels out of Iraq without paying any tax on it because the iraqi government is too weak and ineffectual to do anything about it. In fact its even worse than that because those same oil companies force the Iraq government to use its meagre resources to spend money creating a military force whose sole purpose is to guard the oil pipelines those companies use to remove the oil from the country tax free.

Or take Africa. Collectively the most resource rich continent on the planet being absolutely raped of its resources by predatory corporations because almost none of its governments have the power to prevent it. The situation is actually worse now than during colonialism. Back then, European countries extracted $4 from Africa for every $1 they invested in Africa. Now they extract $20 for every $1 spent. Here's a specific example of what I mean.

YouTube video

The problem is connection and consequence. How many consumers even know how massive technology corporations like Apple and Samsung obtain the materials they need for manufacturing? Even if the local effects in Africa of Cobalt mining were widely known around the world how many people would care enough about it to give up their cell phones in order to force those companies into more ethical practices?

How often have we seen the same pattern? Diamond mining, deforestation to grow palm oil plantations, factory farming and battery hens. Everyone knows about the unethical and locally damaging practices but no one's giving up their jewellery, cosmetics and cheap food to do anything about it because the average consumer doesn't equate those things when doing their weekly shop. In a globalised world reputation isn't linked to conduct but end user experience.

The exact same problem in reverse exists at the end of life of a product. The consumer thinks they're being responsible citizens by recycling their old technology but their actions are so far removed from the actual practices of recycling that it equates to the same ultimate thing...

Out of sight, out of mind

Here's Joe Scott again with the example

YouTube video

Originally posted by ilikecomics
Propaganda based on Chernobyl, 3 mile island, and Fukushima.
This plus the public's scientific ignorance, combined with it's credulity towards experts = abstaining from using one of the richest, cleanest burning energy sources on the planet.
if true, that is gross exploitation of the public's ignorance and it makes me hate the main stream media even more